55 replies to this topic

[Surrie]

Dare I start this topic... Mods, please remove/alter etc. if this topic is not appropriate 

[Dustin]

Can't see why it would not be appropriate. We had a thread on the Scottish referendum - that I derailed, I'm afraid - we have one on Idris Elba and one on the code name theory. Our members are certainly able to discuss the matter in a civilised fashion. They wouldn't be our members if not...


Since I'm personally unaffected by the topic I will just say that I hope for a sensible outcome - whatever that may be.

[Surrie]

Can't see why it would not be appropriate. We had a thread on the Scottish referendum - that I derailed, I'm afraid - we have one on Idris Elba and one on the code name theory. Our members are certainly able to discuss the matter in a civilised fashion. They wouldn't be our members if not...


Since I'm personally unaffected by the topic I will just say that I hope for a sensible outcome - whatever that may be.

 

Thanks Dustin - wasn't entirely sure if 'politics' was off-limits!

[Dustin]

We are not a politics place - there are plenty of other fora for that - we are first and foremost a Bond place, so consequently our focus isn't on politics and we generally avoid the less savoury side of things, i.e. anything that would threaten to unduly influence the political process in budding young democracies is strictly off limits. From what I gather on the waterholes there is some kind of election-thingy or other going on this year that we will ignore, mainly because

a ) it's none of our business and
b ) at least one person involved would not be fit to be a member of CBn.

However, in this particular case - the EU referendum - there is of course the angle of speculation where Bond (whichever Bond we may prefer) would stand on the matter. I will just repeat my opinion from the Scottish referendum; I strongly doubt Bond - Fleming's Bond - would even understand how things proceeded to the point where they are now. Would he much care? Chances are he'd be sitting in an airport bar in Mozambique and see the outcome on the telly between his second and third drink...

[thecasinoroyale]

So much coming out now for leaving and against, it's crazy. The UK will prosper leaving the EU. The UK will sink leaving the EU. Everything pro that comes out, they bring exactly the opposite as a negative.

 

Either way....I wonder how it will affect James Bond in future films, I always love how fiction deals with fact to keep it relevant. Probably use some Euro-terrorist cell from SPECTRE trying to bring the UK to it's knees if they leave for a ransom demand.

[Surrie]

You're right - our media is currently saturated with both sides of the argument. The only certainty is that we will be sick of hearing of it by June! At present I'm standing in the 'In Camp' but do feel strongly that our relationship with the EU will need to change. The argument for the 'Out Camp' of course is that Cameron spent almost 24 hours discussing new deals with the EU... which were less than satisfactory. 

 

Whatever the outcome with the vote, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. But I think that's easier said for me because I'm 60/40 in terms of staying in. 

 

We will most probably see a 'Euro-terrorist' story plot in the future, just not too sure how ready the franchise are to tackle that story line yet!

[thecasinoroyale]

I see pros for leaving, and pros for staying. Cons as well.

 

I just don't like how much it becomes almost playground tactics of "he said this, so we say that" and "you like this, but you won't like that". It's just being handled a little sloppy IMO.

 

But I think, like Scotland, we will not break away. I would find it very interesting if we did to see what chances and opportunities will arise for us.

[Dustin]

If we learn something from experience it is that either outcome will not mean the end of days - but also that any period of transition can be a tough one, which will not sit well with those affected. When Britain joined the EU - with a referendum - it used to be in much worse a state than it is today; evidently Britain must have done something right since. Nobody can with any much certainty tell where things for Britain will be in five years from now. But either way it seems doubtful it will lie in smouldering ruins, be that EU ruins or its solitary ones.

[Jim]

Oh.

 

Um, right, well... interesting times, I guess.

[Dustin]

Indeed.

Seems like a day grandchildren will ask us about in the future. Let's hope they don't do it while about to sign a contract with a retirement home...

EDIT: I often wish I could travel back to 1985 again. Never thought the gods of farce would grant me that.

[SecretAgentFan]

Hope this decision won´t bring on another "Is Bond still relevant"-theme in No. 25...

[Dustin]

Firstly, I suppose it will bring BOND 25 a good deal later till anybody will actually be able to see how and where things are headed. The Bond films are indeed an international affair, like most of the big productions. Nobody will want to risk money in this kind of climate.

[Surrie]

Absolutely gutted by the decision today. Adorno & Horkheimer's  Enlightenment of Mass Deception writing has never felt so relevant. 

[SecretAgentFan]

Firstly, I suppose it will bring BOND 25 a good deal later till anybody will actually be able to see how and where things are headed. The Bond films are indeed an international affair, like most of the big productions. Nobody will want to risk money in this kind of climate.

 

I don´t know whether this will actually delay the production.  But it could certainly lead to EON going elsewhere to produce it.  France, of course, isn´t an alternative anymore as it was during the production of MOONRAKER.  

 

Then again, the US election result might provoke the whole world´s economy to tank.  And movies might not be on anybody´s mind anymore.

 

Bond leaving the service at the end of SPECTRE feels terrifyingly prescient right now...

[Dustin]

If nothing else Britain certainly managed to show its sense for dramatics today.

[Surrie]

We're embarrassing!

[Dustin]

Now, now. Britain has its right to pursue its dreams like any other country. It just remains to be seen where they lead. Chances are things will hopefully not take the worst possible outcome. Britain voted to leave - but 48% of the ballot voted to remain, too. The victors would be well-advised not to forget about them. We'll see what we will see.

Personally, I'd be somewhat concerned about the direction the applause comes from. Not in fact a measure of building up mutual trust. But I suppose that will not bother the winners right now. All one can do is wait and see.

[Surrie]

I was referring to the amateur dramatics when I cited being embarrassed. At the moment I just feel cheated, over 75% of 25s and under voted to remain - we have to live with this decision the longest. I do feel this will be a fraught journey now, and not one we had to take in the first place. We've lost respect, investment, free movement and divided the country in the process.

[Pierceuhhh]

Haha it's like Crazy Frog all over again.

Nice to see Cameron canonized in the Hall of Shame where he belongs.

[SecretAgentFan]

There´s nothing nice to see here currently.

[Dustin]

I was referring to the amateur dramatics when I cited being embarrassed. At the moment I just feel cheated, over 75% of 25s and under voted to remain - we have to live with this decision the longest. I do feel this will be a fraught journey now, and not one we had to take in the first place. We've lost respect, investment, free movement and divided the country in the process.

It is probably the most farcical thing to happen in our time, agreed. Well, c'est la vie. The only consolation I can offer is that the older generation can not forever stand in the way of the youth, for better or worse. Young Britons now will have to set their sights on the future and give it the best they can, however it may turn out.

[thecasinoroyale]

The worst thing about being in the UK I feel now? The way people are turning on each other for having an opinion and casting the vote others don't agree with. Name calling, insulting and general aggression.

It's quite frankly disgusting to see, and I'm sure the Leave voters weren't voting to break up their own country; they were voting out of their fear and uncertainty for their own experiences with the current Government and EU big-wigs with their hands in big business. Maybe this was, to them, the only life line they could see to make a notable change and grasp for a new direction. They didn't vote out of spite to annoy everyone in the Remain party.

Scary times, yes, but I think - hope - we, as sovereign nations, can go forward and adapt rather than go backward and regress.

[Jim]

Agreed.

 

Odd day, really. Anyway, onward and see what comes of it.

[Dustin]

They didn't vote out of spite to annoy everyone in the Remain party.

Yes, one tends to hope this. Sadly not everybody shares this sentiment; there is a lot of downright feral glee mixed in the cheers of some campaigners. Of course this reflects more a general trend of our times - what we have to call 'Internet culture' - not a lack in Britain's political discourse as such. Still, it's remarkable how much the country changed since I lived there.

Scary times, yes, but I think - hope - we, as sovereign nations, can go forward and adapt rather than go backward and regress.

In the long run there is only one direction, regardless what slogans get thrown around. Let's call it interesting times, sounds better in our memoirs in 30 years. That's when they'll call our present day 'the good old times'.

[Surrie]

I'm sure most of leave voters weren't voting out of spite, but as you say, out of fear. But, IMO fear that has been exasperated by media and campaigners with no factual back-up or forward-thinking plan. 

 

Key leave figures have already admitted;

 

1. £350 mil was an incorrect figure and was a mistake to say we can spend it on the NHS (Farage, Good Morning Britain, 24/06/16)
2. We can't control free movement of people. We are much bigger than Switzerland! (Dan Hanna, Newsnight, 24/06/16)

Two key pieces of rhetoric throughout the campaign, which were big motivators to people for voting leave, have been proven admitted inaccurate hours after the result... by leave campaigners.

 

I think for a long while I will feel let down, and upset by the outcome. As already discussed an overall majority of the older generation, age 40 upwards voted to leave. I feel dragged out of an institution that brings us many benefits without choice, and by those who have benefited from this institution for most of their lives. 

 

I'm going to be disappointed for some time. 

[SecretAgentFan]

Two things that anger me about the outcome:

 

- facts don´t matter, a demagogue can just lie and people don´t even question it

 

- now it´s all about "the young generation wanted to remain, the old farts voted out".  However, if you look at the facts, you will find that the young generation was not all for remaining in the EU - sadly, almost forty percent wanted to leave or (even worse) did not even vote.  And the seniors also had about 40 percent who wanted to remain.   So it´s not about old or young but about informed and sensible.  And unfortunately, reason always seems to lose these days because the majority is not interested in it.

[Surrie]

That's the worst part. Lies were told, and people lapped it up. Now we have to leave with the repercussions. 

 

Also, I found the below interesting.

 

[Dustin]

Well, in five decades I've seen a lot of stuff happening, amongst it quite a few things I - and everybody else - never thought I'd see. While this vote definitely belongs into the category I think it also goes to show that nothing really lasts forever. Or is irreversible. Every day it's us who shape our present and our future, for better or worse.

There can be little doubt all of this will come with huge damage on both sides of the Channel - but few things are ever broken beyond repair. Everybody will now have to move forward, in whatever direction that will lead. And with time we shall hopefully see future generations succeeding where we failed. It's by no means certain what this decision now will entail for the UK and the EU, many things are still in the air. I can only advise especially the younger ones to keep your eyes open and look for chances amid the chaos. There is seldom a disaster that doesn't hold a grain of good in it, too.

[SecretAgentFan]

People already are demanding a second referendum since it dawns on many only now what they have voted for.

 

London is even asking for more power since it is the economic engine of the whole country - and Londoners mostly voted for "remain".

 

I get the feeling that this decision might still get overturned.

[Dustin]

Frankly, I have zero idea where all this is going to lead to. I never expected the establishment in the UK to do such a lousy job of relating the benefits of Europe to their electorate. Or to let the opposition get away with an 11.00pm pub version of their vision for the country outside their natural habitat. I lived there for a time in that far away country of the 1980s. Baffling to think some of the people I knew back then now stand before this situation and will have to deal with it. I do not recognise Britain any longer, it definitely has changed in ways I wouldn't have thought possible.