108 replies to this topic

[Gobi-1]

This thread will be for all the loose ends and unanswered questions in Spectre.

 

I'll start with this.

 

Spoiler

In the film Bond revealed that Judi Dench's M left him a video message telling him that if she were to be killed that Bond should track down and kill Sciarra. Now I've only seen the film once so I may be recalling it incorrectly but what exactly was the connection between M and Sciarra?

[AMC Hornet]

They said it was a 'cryptic message from Bond's past'.

 

Read 'convenient retcon plot device.'

[Vauxhall]

Yes, just a bit of intelligence which (conveniently) old M decided was best left on a videotape rather than given to the rest of MI6. She can't have looked too closely into him presumably, as Q found links between Sciarra and Silva fairly quickly. She basically set Sciarra up as the way into SPECTRE.

[SecretAgentFan]

Maybe it was just intel that she found while Bond was hunting down Silva.  Since she suspected that someone within Mi6 was tied into SPECTRE (Mr. White´s "We have people everywhere" did shock her very much) she taped the message before her hearing.

[Guy Haines]

She was secretly on to something - about SPECTRE - when the whole Silva business blew up. Maybe Silva was SPECTRE's way of stopping her and given his fixation with her, a chance to get rid of her and humiliate MI6. Of course they didn't reckon on Bond - or perhaps they did? All part of Blofeld's long term plan to orchestrate Bond's "pain" - get rid of M, the only woman he obeyed and a person he truly respected, throw MI6 into turmoil, and throw M off the scent of SPECTRE. And the message from beyond the grave - insurance that Bond would carry on without her.

Or as has been said above, maybe just a convenient and non-explained plot device! ;-)

[Dustin]

Actually, if we think about it in terms of operational relevance, how probable - for Dench-M - would it be that she should be killed and Bond is still alive? Or did she tape numerous messages for her employees and Bond just happened to be the lucky one? Might perhaps have worked better for me if the message had not been personalised for 007.

[Dustin]

My gripe - just the first one that comes to mind - concernes the widowed Mrs Sciarra: why ever would the baddies (one assumes it's Spectre's gunmen but we're not told expressively so) set out to kill her just because her husband, in a dangerous profession himself, should die in the course of his duty? That's not very good for the morale of the crew, is it?

The script should have made it clear Mrs Sciarra is Dench-M's source to Spectre and only agreed to spill the beans on the condition she get's a 00-divorce from her late husband, that would explain a lot.

[SecretAgentFan]

My gripe - just the first one that comes to mind - concernes the widowed Mrs Sciarra: why ever would the baddies (one assumes it's Spectre's gunmen but we're not told expressively so) set out to kill her just because her husband, in a dangerous profession himself, should die in the course of his duty? That's not very good for the morale of the crew, is it?

The script should have made it clear Mrs Sciarra is Dench-M's source to Spectre and only agreed to spill the beans on the condition she get's a 00-divorce from her late husband, that would explain a lot.

 

Oh, yes!  That would have been a perfect twist!  It´s not in the October draft - so maybe you´re the first to make that connection!

 

As for killing her (and morale with the others): having Hinx kill one of Spectre´s willing members in front of all is probably the same strategy - whoever disappoints will be killed.  And family members as well, just to be safe.

[Vauxhall]

Presumably SPECTRE planning to kill off Madeleine after the death of Mr White is equivalent to them planning to kill Lucia following Sciarra's death. Surviving relatives leave too many loose ends for Blofeld's liking, so the most expedient thing to do is to cut them off as soon as possible.

[Dustin]

Hinx is another matter, he's a formidable henchman and a great monster. But it might have given things a further twist if he had the corpse of the late Mrs Sciarra in his car.

I'm fairly sure at some point Bellucci must have been meant as Dench's source to Spectre, the line about not missing the funeral makes no sense otherwise; also Bond handles her like the classical defector. Perhaps it was meant to be clearer without stating it expressively.

As for Swann, do they indeed intend to kill her? No, they go to great lengths to get her alive. Why actually? A reason for this course of events would have given that part some structure.

[Guy Haines]

Hinx is another matter, he's a formidable henchman and a great monster. But it might have given things a further twist if he had the corpse of the late Mrs Sciarra in his car.
I'm fairly sure at some point Bellucci must have been meant as Dench's source to Spectre, the line about not missing the funeral makes no sense otherwise; also Bond handles her like the classical defector. Perhaps it was meant to be clearer without stating it expressively.
As for Swann, do they indeed intend to kill her? No, they go to great lengths to get her alive. Why actually? A reason for this course of events would have given that part some structure.

Bumping off Lucia makes sense because of the risk that her husband has revealed things he shouldn't in normal or initmate moments.

Madeleine - good point. They could have gone into the clinic and shot her - and Bond would be none the wiser - definitely none the wiser - about SPECTRE. Instead she's kidnapped and an attempt at drugging her en route occurs. Why? Unless they want to know if she has revealed to others what she already knows, from her father, about SPECTRE, so the organisation can set about eliminating them as well. Including Bond?

[Professor Pi]

We might be back to the point where Bond ends up with the girl at the end, and she's nowhere to be seen in the next film.  SecretAgentFan, I love your theory that Lucia was M's source (and how else would Bond know she hated him?)  But she could have mentioned that in some dialog. 

 

I also would have liked a scene with Felix, since he's mentioned.  The way the film ends, they could opt to bring all these characters back, or completely start over if this is Craig's swansong (oh, I get it now!)  What would be super difficult to do is bring Craig back as the burnt out, depressed Bond we find in the beginning of YOLT, without tragedy befalling Madeline.  That would be such a tired device by this point (Tracy, Vesper.) 

 

But it could be that Oberhauser's escape in the next film is what brings Bond back to MI6. 

[stromberg]

Re the Madeleine kidnapping: Bloferhauser knew that Bond was finally on his track  and he knew that Madeleine would be the perfect bait to lure him anywhere he wanted to and then execute his elaborate revenge on the unloved cuckoo brother. It take it that he originally didn't intend to get him into his lair, knowing what Bond is capable of (that's why he send Hinx to eliminate him on the train).

 

Of course, the October script reveals a different motivation to keep her alive. 

[Dustin]

I will have to read that October version one of these days...

As for Madeleine - she is the first one to leave him, and on screen, too. She surely could do that prior to BOND 25 again, maybe even after Bond returns from a pts-skirmish to find his flat occupied only by dead plants and a farewell note...

[seawolfnyy]

I would like to read the October script as well. I got the feeling that the reason for keeping her alive was more to find out what she knew about SPECTRE and if Mr. White had anything hidden away that could expose them like L'Americain. I don't see the reason for using her as bait to catch Bond.

[Double-Oh Agent]

We might be back to the point where Bond ends up with the girl at the end, and she's nowhere to be seen in the next film.  SecretAgentFan, I love your theory that Lucia was M's source (and how else would Bond know she hated him?)  But she could have mentioned that in some dialog. 

 

I also would have liked a scene with Felix, since he's mentioned.  The way the film ends, they could opt to bring all these characters back, or completely start over if this is Craig's swansong (oh, I get it now!)  What would be super difficult to do is bring Craig back as the burnt out, depressed Bond we find in the beginning of YOLT, without tragedy befalling Madeline.  That would be such a tired device by this point (Tracy, Vesper.) 

 

But it could be that Oberhauser's escape in the next film is what brings Bond back to MI6. 

I know Bond tossed his gun away on the bridge and that Q says that he'd thought Bond had gone, but I still don't think it's necessarily implied that he has left the service. I look at it as him going away on leave with Madeleine and the filmmakers are being purposefully coy about the issue particularly with the possibility of SPECTRE being Daniel Craig's last 007 film (although I believe he will do 1 more) . As for Bond tossing his gun away, it was out of bullets and he was getting rid of it to leave the crime scene with the girl. Not a great reason but it looks good for cinema.

[deth]

 

We might be back to the point where Bond ends up with the girl at the end, and she's nowhere to be seen in the next film.  SecretAgentFan, I love your theory that Lucia was M's source (and how else would Bond know she hated him?)  But she could have mentioned that in some dialog. 

 

I also would have liked a scene with Felix, since he's mentioned.  The way the film ends, they could opt to bring all these characters back, or completely start over if this is Craig's swansong (oh, I get it now!)  What would be super difficult to do is bring Craig back as the burnt out, depressed Bond we find in the beginning of YOLT, without tragedy befalling Madeline.  That would be such a tired device by this point (Tracy, Vesper.) 

 

But it could be that Oberhauser's escape in the next film is what brings Bond back to MI6. 

I know Bond tossed his gun away on the bridge and that Q says that he'd thought Bond had gone, but I still don't think it's necessarily implied that he has left the service. I look at it as him going away on leave with Madeleine and the filmmakers are being purposefully coy about the issue particularly with the possibility of SPECTRE being Daniel Craig's last 007 film (although I believe he will do 1 more) . As for Bond tossing his gun away, it was out of bullets and he was getting rid of it to leave the crime scene with the girl. Not a great reason but it looks good for cinema.

 

 

 

Exactly how I saw it. Nowhere did they say he quit or retired... only Q said he thought Bond had gone. Gone where? Holiday with the girl perhaps. No big deal, overall. Bond seems to do this at the end of all the classic films, more or less.

 

A small gripe... I found the way Bond tossed his gun away at the end to be exaggerated... almost a rather flamboyant toss! Nothing casual there...

[Harmsway]

It's strongly indicated that Bond quit. The setup for that moment (the train convo and Madeleine's departure) frames it as Bond leaving that life behind.

[Dustin]

Definitely. Throwing the gun away is an entirely symbolical action saying 'that was that,' no other use for it. SPECTRE's last few frames see him get away from the Service in a very real sense. So the possibility that this is Craig's last must have been floating about long before his comments in the promo campaign.

Which is another strange nuance of this film for me. For, in spite of Moneypenny's comment at the beginning, nowhere in the tale is there an indication that Bond is done with the Service; this is the most business-as-usual film Craig did in the role. Now these last few frames open the door to the reading he left for good, practically out of thin air. There is no build-up to this, apart perhaps Madeleine's decision that she cannot stay in this kind of life. But the logical conclusion, that Bond will then leave this life behind for her, is not really addressed as such.

[AMC Hornet]

Something I didn't catch on first viewing, but which got through to me the second time:

 

Bond in the middle of the Bridge with Franz Blofeld, Mallory at one end (representing his life so far) and Madeline at the other (representing his possible future), and Bond has to make a choice - like a dog being called by two competing owners.

 

Bond will be "called out of retirement" (same line used to describe NSNA) to recapture Ernst Oberhauser after he escapes in B25.

[Dustin]

Something I didn't catch on first viewing, but which got through to me the second time:

Bond in the middle of the Bridge with Franz Blofeld, Mallory at one end (representing his life so far) and Madeline at the other (representing his possible future), and Bond has to make a choice - like a dog being called by two competing owners.

Bond will be "called out of retirement" (same line used to describe NSNA) to recapture Ernst Oberhauser after he escapes in B25.

Yes, that too. Very good observation, the middle of the bridge with Oberhauser being the turning point in Bond's life. From the whole film language of the finale you can only take this as the end of Bond's career.

[deth]

 

Something I didn't catch on first viewing, but which got through to me the second time:

Bond in the middle of the Bridge with Franz Blofeld, Mallory at one end (representing his life so far) and Madeline at the other (representing his possible future), and Bond has to make a choice - like a dog being called by two competing owners.

Bond will be "called out of retirement" (same line used to describe NSNA) to recapture Ernst Oberhauser after he escapes in B25.

Yes, that too. Very good observation, the middle of the bridge with Oberhauser being the turning point in Bond's life. From the whole film language of the finale you can only take this as the end of Bond's career.

 

 

 

Maybe. As I've said... it's not the first time that Bond chooses the girl and ignores the service at the end of a film. This was mildly more intense than previous entries... but every time he's quit in the past they've talked of resignation... and they've made a bigger deal about it. In CR it was the whole subtext of the last quarter of the film. 

I really got the sense (I've only seen it once, mind you) that it's just temporary leave. 

[Dustin]

It is certainly not intended to be final, that much is clear. But the setup of the scene on the bridge is definitely intended to also work as a farewell, whichever way they choose to pick up with BOND 25. I really can't help but feel at some stage the idea may have been to make this the definite end of the Craig chapter.

[deth]

Well one way or another I hope we hear from someone involved as to what the exact thinking was. It'll probably be a few years until that happens though...

[Dustin]

I dream of a Charles Helfenstein tome for every one of the film's. But one about SPECTRE would definitely not come amiss. The chapters about the backstory and the reasoning behind several production decisions alone would be worth it.

[SecretAgentFan]

Oh, yes!  Mr. Helfenstein, please!

[AMC Hornet]

Another couple of things:

 

When Bond is being ejected from the clinic, he asks Q where he is staying (R.I.P. Thomas Pevsner) while the clinic security personnel listen on. Then he roundly thrashes the security personnel. By the time he gets Madeline away from Hinx, Q is back at his hotel, undisturbed by Austrian authorities looking for the guy responsible for the fracas at the clinic.

 

After demolishing half the train and ejecting an admittedly unwelcome passenger and the entire beer supply, Bond and Madeline are simply dropped off at their stop in the desert. Did Bond's platinum AMEX card cover all the damage? Or were the rail operators simply glad to see the back of them?

 

How did Mr. White access his hidden room at L'Americain? Did he knock out and rebuild the wall during every visit?

 

Niggling details, but I (we?) just have that kind of mind.

[TheREAL008]

I predict something akin to the ending of OHMSS and the beginning of Bourne two to happen in the next one. 

[Vauxhall]

How did Mr. White access his hidden room at L'Americain? Did he knock out and rebuild the wall during every visit?

 

There was the skeleton of a hidden door, but Bond did his usual thing, and smashed through it with brute force. Presumably there was a secret switch which he didn't bother looking for.

[Trevelyan 006]

I have a small collection of minuscule questions:

 

- How was Bond able to disable a formidable helicopter with a small arms weapon from such a distance away?

 

- Why were there only a handful of SPECTRE agents outside Blofeld's compound trying to stop Bond and Madeleine from escaping?

 

- Why was Dominic Greens's photo omitted from the lot in the holding cells scene within the old MI6 building?