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"Finally, here we are..." - thoughts on SPECTRE


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#1 Vauxhall

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:25 PM

I had a lot of doubts leading into SPECTRE, even some fears. I'd read a lot of the leaked material, and even though I knew a lot of things would change, the overriding feeling I had was that the filmmakers had very, very ambitious goals. To reintroduce SPECTRE and therefore probably Blofeld too, plus a credible love interest for Bond, while reconciling that with the past three Craig films in a satisfactory way that didn't seem contrived struck me as a huge challenge - perhaps even a risky one. Well, I think they pretty much nailed it. It may have been relief, but I left the Leicester Square Odeon with an even more satisfied feeling than after SKYFALL. This time, they gambled with the past, and pulled it off.

It's an odd thing reading notes and scripts from early in the production phase. You get wedded to certain ideas, and really excited about how they'll play out on screen - and of course, when you get to the movie, some are gone. It's not a disappointment, it's just another way of seeing things. On the flipside, the early drafts were littered with problems and weakly developed gags - too many to list here. However, to see how they've straightened the script out and plugged almost all of the plot holes is a real treat. For my money, this is a simpler, more logical and less troubled plot than SKYFALL.

Another great success/relief for me is that the Oberhauser back story is explained in a way that I'm fine with and doesn't seem utterly ludicrous. We know they toyed with a few different ways of making the connection, and I still don't know what my preferred option would be, but the way it plays out is perfectly okay. The nods and winks to the SPECTRE leader of old is done subtly enough to not get into the realms of parody. Waltz is great to watch, and makes Oberhauser's motivations reasonable. However, I would say he's not at full stretch of his acting capabilities. Hopefully he'll still get the chance to set that straight.

We've come to expect the best from Craig, and this is another effort which firmly cements him as the best actor to play Bond on screen. Bruising fight scenes left me wincing (the soundtrack-less train fight is brutal and brilliant), and his delivery of the humour is absolutely spot on. This is the funniest Bond movie; I can't think of another one that can come close pound-to-pound in terms of gags and punchlines.

That brings me onto the rest of the cast. 10 years ago, I didn't expect to be able to ever say this with sincerity, but there are no bad performances in Bond films any more. With the calibre of the cast, that shouldn't be a surprise, but SPECTRE is definitely up there in terms of head-to-toe strength in depth. Bellucci, Scott, Kinnear and Harris are underused but inevitably solid as can be. Fiennes inhabits the role of M in a way that makes it seem he's been doing it all his life, and I only hope he does do it for the rest of his life. He's human, principled and firm.

The stars of the show are Whishaw and Seydoux though. In two performances, Whishaw has created a unique version of a beloved character and make it stand for itself. The easy repartee and fledgling friendship with Bond is the core to a lot of the movie's key developments, and his wit gives him a lot of the best dialogue driven moments of the film. As for Lea Seydoux, I'd liked her, not loved her in previous movies - but in this, I thought she was fantastic and truly impressed me. The character of Swann is layered, but she unfolds the trust issues very well, and (I know people will disagree with me on this), I think makes the Bond/Swann love story feasible - more so than Bond/Vesper (controversial, yes). I hope she returns.

Most of what I'd say about the direction, design and photography has been said before - but the opening tracking shot is a real gem and should go right towards the list of top Bond moments. The whole Mexico sequence is an astonishing achievement, perhaps with a slightly overdone helicopter fight sequence, but I'm happy to give them that one. Austria gleams, London glowers, Rome shines and Morocco sizzles. We've been spoilt visually for these last three films, and long may it continue.

That's not to say SPECTRE is perfect, but it's strong enough to brush off most gripes. I could be pedantic in the usual way and ask what happened to everyone else on the train, all the cars in Rome, how Bloferhauser was able to cross the Thames and get into his helicopter in about 20 seconds etc - but the answer is always the same - it's a Bond film. The action sequences look good, and are expertly put together by the best in the business, but the Rome car chase in particular seems a bit disjointed, with the intercutting of the Moneypenny phone call and Bond trying to play with all the gadgets not quite working for me. It seemed odd to have important plot exposition taking place while competing with the roar of two supercar engines and Newman's muscular scoring of the scene. I'm reaching slightly though; of course, in the heat of the action, I was still gripped as ever - and the pay-off of the elderly Fiat driver was brilliantly done, and got a great laugh.

Have no doubt, this is Bond as Bond can be. Does that mean it's the best of the series? No. Does that mean it's Bond by numbers? No. But my initial sense is that we'll look back at SPECTRE at being among the truest sense of what a Bond film should have - a powerful lead performance, an engaging love interest, an interesting villain, memorable locations, an intimidating henchman and the rest of the MI6 team playing more than a passing role.

It opens up truly exciting possibilities for BOND 25, with intriguing opportunities for characters to return and directions to take the plot with or without Craig. Let's see. We'll all have lots to discuss over the next few years, that's for certain.

These are of course all first impressions. I'll add more thoughts as they come, as this has already got a bit long, and became a stream of consciousness. I've got a few more viewings lined up, so I may look back at this in a few years and cringe, but I don't think so. My initial instinct is this is easily a top 10 Bond, probably pushing towards top five. 8 out of 10 for starters.

The bottom line is that SPECTRE is Fun from start to end, and, after all, isn't that why we're all here and have invested so much time in these films :)

(I've definitely forgotten things I wanted to mention, so fire away with any questions.)

Edited by Vauxhall, 27 October 2015 - 08:26 PM.


#2 Hockey Mask

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:28 PM

Yay! Thank you for your thoughts.

Added: what were your thoughts on the title sequence/song? What about the muted colors (particularly Mexico)?

Edited by 00Hockey Mask, 27 October 2015 - 08:33 PM.


#3 thecasinoroyale

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:42 PM

Nice one Vaux - nice to read a very similar opinon to mine. 

 

Glad you enjoyed it! :D



#4 Vauxhall

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:50 PM

Nice one Vaux - nice to read a very similar opinon to mine. 
 
Glad you enjoyed it! :D

Thanks mate. Been travelling today and just catching up now. Loved your review and how detailed it was - agree with pretty much everything in there. Enjoy the next viewing! :)

Yay! Thank you for your thoughts.
Added: what were your thoughts on the title sequence/song? What about the muted colors (particularly Mexico)?

Pleasure!

Title sequence reinforced to me that Daniel Kleinman is some sort of sorcerer or genius. He made the song more palatable with a bewitching display of writhing bodies and octopus. Having said that, if anyone happens to be squeamish about octopi, maybe steer clear! Sexualisation of sea life is quite something to behold!

As for Mexico: yes, they'd clearly made a conscious choice to go that way. It didn't detract from the colour and the vibrancy of the parade, and the "dusty" look made sense after the explosion, so I can live with it. I forgot about it quite quickly because the sequence is so compelling.

#5 Harmsway

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 08:59 PM

What was the most unexpected/surprising thing about the film?

What did you miss most from the material you'd seen?

#6 Vauxhall

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:50 PM

- Off the top of my head I'd say: Seydoux's performance and how convincing she was; the new torture scene; how well the nods to Waltz's character were handled; the Bond fan gag about the name of the safe house; plus they tweaked the scene with Oberhauser showing Madeleine the video from White's house in a pleasing way.

- The original last line for sure, but I guess I understand why they would lose it. Glad the cuckoo thing was toned down and the card game disappeared.

Edited by Vauxhall, 27 October 2015 - 09:57 PM.


#7 univex

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:52 PM

Brilliantly done Vaux. Been waiting for your review. Now I know I´ll love it. Harms already asked the questions I would ask ;)



#8 Guy Haines

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:32 PM

Interesting review, Vauxhall. I'm not sure this is the "funniest" Bond film - any one of the Moore Bonds could claim that title because they intentionally headed in that direction, but it does have its lighter moments. (For example, if you are going to drive a DB10, check out the special effects first - Bond's reaction when he presses the "Atmosphere" button is priceless!)

I've posted earlier that it's a film of two halves - the first a nod towards the classics of the 1960s and early 70s - when I first got into this Bond stuff! - the second, imho, an almost surreal revisit of the themes of SF. Just my view though.

The big "reveal" was handled in a way I should have seen coming but didn't - talk about "hidden in plain sight".

I agree with you about Madeleine, but I think the relationship with Bond is a work in progress. Will it progress into Bond 25? We'll see.

The villain. A case of less is more? Not on as much as we may like but highly effective when he is, and I liked the other "reveal" when he and 007 are re-united on Bond's home territory.

#9 Harmsway

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:50 PM

The original last line for sure, but I guess I understand why they would lose it.

Did they replace it? Or is the scene without dialogue?

#10 RMc2

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 01:49 AM

 

The original last line for sure, but I guess I understand why they would lose it.

Did they replace it? Or is the scene without dialogue?

 

 

It's dialogue-free. Works very well, imho!



#11 sharpshooter

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 09:48 AM

Very good review, thanks Vauxhall.

 

From your perspective, why do you think some reviewers are underwhelmed and expressing disappointment? Is this a love it or hate it type film? Hate being too strong of a word, I think. But you get what I mean. 



#12 Shrublands

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 10:51 AM

Thanks for that review, Vaux. A great read.

 

I really liked Spectre and think there is so much that it gets right. The pacing is quite brilliant - the 2 and a half hour running time zips by never feeling either slow or rushed. The performances are all great, particularly Seydoux. There is so much to recommend here. 

 

That said, there is something fundamentally underwhelming about it all. For a film where Bond quits the secret service for a woman who is the daughter of a villain, where he meets his greatest arch enemy etc the main thing that it leaves me feeing is 'business as usual'. 

 

That's not to say I'm against 'business as usual' (particularly when done as well as this) but the film ends up feeling lacking in that it fails to extract the level of extra drama out of the major, life changing for Bond things that happen to him here. 



#13 Guy Haines

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 11:10 AM

Thanks for that review, Vaux. A great read.
 
I really liked Spectre and think there is so much that it gets right. The pacing is quite brilliant - the 2 and a half hour running time zips by never feeling either slow or rushed. The performances are all great, particularly Seydoux. There is so much to recommend here. 
 
That said, there is something fundamentally underwhelming about it all. For a film where Bond quits the secret service for a woman who is the daughter of a villain, where he meets his greatest arch enemy etc the main thing that it leaves me feeing is 'business as usual'. 
 
That's not to say I'm against 'business as usual' (particularly when done as well as this) but the film ends up feeling lacking in that it fails to extract the level of extra drama out of the major, life changing for Bond things that happen to him here.


I'm not sure its a case of underwhelming, (Although I spoke to my acquaintance Tracy yesterday, who told me she enjoyed it all, but felt the end was a bit rushed and s0, so.)

Rather;

Spoiler


#14 Shrublands

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 11:19 AM

I don't think any of it is rushed as such, it's the slight and frivolous tone even when the drama should demand more gravitas.



#15 Vauxhall

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 12:58 PM

Very good review, thanks Vauxhall.

From your perspective, why do you think some reviewers are underwhelmed and expressing disappointment? Is this a love it or hate it type film? Hate being too strong of a word, I think. But you get what I mean.

I think that the goalposts have moved slightly in terms of what reviewers are after. They gave SKYFALL such high praise that SPECTRE was always going to be second best. Most of the reviews only compare those two films, rather than place it in the broader context of the Bond films.

I've spoken to about 15 people who have seen the film - some big Bond fans and some "others" - and no-one ranked it lower than a 7 out of 10. I think that's pretty good going, particularly given how spoilt we've been for two of the last three films. I honestly think there's too much good stuff in there for people to hate it, but I can understand, as always, there can be some disappointed if anticipation isn't quite lived up to.

#16 Shrublands

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 01:21 PM

Yes, 7 out of 10 is roughly what I've got when asking people who've seen it.

 

I was talking to one chap (not a big Bond fan, but likes them) he seemed to like it well enough but with reservations so I suggest 7 out of 10.

He replied, "No, I liked it more than that."

 

What I said in the above post about being underwhelmed by parts of it sounds negative, but I really liked it. I suppose, as Vaux says, we've been a bit spoiled with CR and SF.



#17 thecasinoroyale

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 01:33 PM

I honestly liked it more than 'Skyfall' - that felt less of a Bond film than this one. I found nearly all the ingredients kept the pace pretty steady and I enjoyed that brewing suspense with SPECTRE in the background of everything.

 

Saying that, I preferred the ending to 'Skyfall' more than 'SPECTRE'; that felt sloppy which was a shame.



#18 Single-O-Seven

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 01:33 PM

 

Very good review, thanks Vauxhall.

From your perspective, why do you think some reviewers are underwhelmed and expressing disappointment? Is this a love it or hate it type film? Hate being too strong of a word, I think. But you get what I mean.

I think that the goalposts have moved slightly in terms of what reviewers are after. They gave SKYFALL such high praise that SPECTRE was always going to be second best. Most of the reviews only compare those two films, rather than place it in the broader context of the Bond films.

I've spoken to about 15 people who have seen the film - some big Bond fans and some "others" - and no-one ranked it lower than a 7 out of 10. I think that's pretty good going, particularly given how spoilt we've been for two of the last three films. I honestly think there's too much good stuff in there for people to hate it, but I can understand, as always, there can be some disappointed if anticipation isn't quite lived up to.

 

 

If SPECTRE had come first, and SKYFALL was just being released now (allowing for any potential plot point shuffles) do you think SF would still be held in higher regard, or would the reaction be about the same, with the former film having set the bar too high? Maybe a pointless or difficult question to answer precisely, but I'm sure you get my drift.



#19 Vauxhall

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 01:45 PM

Yes, 7 out of 10 is roughly what I've got when asking people who've seen it.

I was talking to one chap (not a big Bond fan, but likes them) he seemed to like it well enough but with reservations so I suggest 7 out of 10.
He replied, "No, I liked it more than that."

What I said in the above post about being underwhelmed by parts of it sounds negative, but I really liked it. I suppose, as Vaux says, we've been a bit spoiled with CR and SF.

Indeed. I was thinking of saying it's a solid Bond film but it's far better than that, and it rediscovers much of the traditional humour in an updated way. In fact, you could argue this has belatedly rebooted the humour without overdoing it with pastiche.


Very good review, thanks Vauxhall.

From your perspective, why do you think some reviewers are underwhelmed and expressing disappointment? Is this a love it or hate it type film? Hate being too strong of a word, I think. But you get what I mean.

I think that the goalposts have moved slightly in terms of what reviewers are after. They gave SKYFALL such high praise that SPECTRE was always going to be second best. Most of the reviews only compare those two films, rather than place it in the broader context of the Bond films.

I've spoken to about 15 people who have seen the film - some big Bond fans and some "others" - and no-one ranked it lower than a 7 out of 10. I think that's pretty good going, particularly given how spoilt we've been for two of the last three films. I honestly think there's too much good stuff in there for people to hate it, but I can understand, as always, there can be some disappointed if anticipation isn't quite lived up to.

If SPECTRE had come first, and SKYFALL was just being released now (allowing for any potential plot point shuffles) do you think SF would still be held in higher regard, or would the reaction be about the same, with the former film having set the bar too high? Maybe a pointless or difficult question to answer precisely, but I'm sure you get my drift.
It's obviously tough to say with certainty, but I think the reaction would be about the same, with SKYFALL being well received but the bar having been set that bit higher. At this point, I would find it tough to put my finger on why SKYFALL is definitively better than SPECTRE.

#20 Dustin

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 01:55 PM

Please, with regards to all those who have yet to see it - including me here - do keep in mind how many different perspectives the audience this time will bring to the theatres, especially with SPECTRE's production history and it's immediate precursor. In my forty years of being a fan I have never before seen a Bond film with so much being revealed about even before shooting began.

Also, never before has the public gained this amount of behind-the-scenes interna SPECTRE got due to the Sony leaks affair. The usual suspects tried their best to slag the film for well over a year now; only this time they used the better part of the stolen material to supposedly support their case. Meanwhile, the benchmark for the success of the series is now a much-hyped production that, in all likelihood, had probably much the same amount of backstage quibbles SPECTRE had.

With all that in mind, is it really so surprising a few people are still not satisfied with the finished product? Personally, I'd have been amazed if this film had met with unanimous praise. I'm still confident it will manage to give most people a good time. And probably quite a few a good reason to become new fans. What more can you expect?

#21 Guy Haines

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 02:26 PM

I've seen it just once - I'll see it again very soon - but I'm quite happy with it. I'll be more relaxed next time around (I hope!) because I know what's coming up, whereas I'm always a bit apprehensive about seeing a new Bond for the first time.

If I had to sum up the differences between SF and SP, without giving away anything about the latter;

SF - straightforward storyline but with some plot holes - less of a classic Bond experience - more emotional depth some humour but not a pastiche.

SP - a more complicated plotline but fewer plotholes - more of a classic Bond experience - less emotional depth, mainly concentrated in the film's second half - more humourous particularly in the first half but again not a pastiche by any means.

In terms of which is best - for me the two balance each other out.

#22 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 02:41 PM

Please, with regards to all those who have yet to see it - including me here - do keep in mind how many different perspectives the audience this time will bring to the theatres, especially with SPECTRE's production history and it's immediate precursor. In my forty years of being a fan I have never before seen a Bond film with so much being revealed about even before shooting began.

Also, never before has the public gained this amount of behind-the-scenes interna SPECTRE got due to the Sony leaks affair. The usual suspects tried their best to slag the film for well over a year now; only this time they used the better part of the stolen material to supposedly support their case. Meanwhile, the benchmark for the success of the series is now a much-hyped production that, in all likelihood, had probably much the same amount of backstage quibbles SPECTRE had.

With all that in mind, is it really so surprising a few people are still not satisfied with the finished product? Personally, I'd have been amazed if this film had met with unanimous praise. I'm still confident it will manage to give most people a good time. And probably quite a few a good reason to become new fans. What more can you expect?

 

Couldn´t agree more.

 

And I don´t think the kind of scrutiny that was invited by the leaks helps any enjoyment.  The best way to experience this film or any other is to go in with as much of an open mind as possible. 

 

Also, Bond films are not made to have fantastic reviews.  It´s nice for any film to have them.  But reviews do not really say anything about quality.  Only about zeitgeist.  Look at "2001", "Blade Runner" etc. ...



#23 Vauxhall

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 03:45 PM

They've done a particularly great job given how much poor early material came from the leaks and the negative publicity that generated. Must have been a bit of a millstone round their necks at times.

#24 Dustin

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 03:49 PM

Exactly. There is in the media a tendency to make its own trends, that's what made SF so huge, what pushed an exceptional - but still nowhere perfect - production beyond Bond's already high limits.

After a time every trend of course has to turn, so now the odd reviewer may already feel an urge to be the first to write Craig down again, with much the same gusto they hailed him not so long ago. But for now it seems the majority is still pleasantly surprised by Eon's efforts and happy enough to call SPECTRE a success. In the end it's all not important as long as the audience is happy with it. The best chances to enjoy the film you still have if you just ignore the buzz.

#25 Shrublands

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 04:08 PM

The thing is, Spectre is very formulaic, deliberately so, I would say.

What it does with the formula is largely fun, spectacular and exciting.

 

However, when you place it next to CR and SF it can look shallow and Bond by numbers.  



#26 Dustin

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 04:17 PM

One might say that's exactly what the combined tenor of the Bond-fandom on the Internet was clamouring for, no? I'm really intrigued to see how this plays out now...

#27 thecasinoroyale

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 04:19 PM

These leaks and things, though I didn't see any, they sure leaked around here and it was making me fear the worst but man was I wrong. I'm happy to say this certainly is the best DC Bond film in my opinion, taking in all factors. Just edging 'Casino Royale'.

 

So nice to read the positives about this. :)



#28 Vauxhall

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 04:19 PM

I'd agree that it's less against the grain than CASINO ROYALE or SKYFALL, but I'm not sure there would be an easy way to give it more depth without resorting to cliche.

I feel the tipping point of people's opinions of SPECTRE may well be how much people buy into the Bond/Swann relationship. If you accept that, then the ending will be more satisfying.

Another thought: it's great that we're not all locked in a huge rant about Oberhauser. Most seem to agree that pretty much worked.

#29 Guy Haines

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 04:29 PM

I've typed here before; my first impression - my only impression so far as I've seen it only once is of a film of two halves. Classic Bond - 'formulaic" if you like - followed by a bit more depth and a touch of the surreal - and of the Skyfall - in the second. It's not perfect but on the whole it does merit the reviews it has received.

I'd agree that it's less against the grain than CASINO ROYALE or SKYFALL, but I'm not sure there would be an easy way to give it more depth without resorting to cliche.
I feel the tipping point of people's opinions of SPECTRE may well be how much people buy into the Bond/Swann relationship. If you accept that, then the ending will be more satisfying.
Another thought: it's great that we're not all locked in a huge rant about Oberhauser. Most seem to agree that pretty much worked.


Agreed about Oberhauser.

Spoiler


#30 Shrublands

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 04:38 PM

I buy the Bond/Swann relationship mainly because I buy Swann and that is down to Seydoux.

 

But the film does not paint a truly convincing love story between the two, and foreground this.

Had that happened, we could have been looking at a really important film in the canon.

 

The film consistently foregrounds the Bond formula at the expense of its more unique qualities.