453 replies to this topic

[FlemingBond]

wow....these are ideas they had.

 

 

i guess this is what they mean when they're always talking about "going back to Fleming"

 

 

Edited by FlemingBond, 01 November 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[Mr_Wint]

 

 

Mr. Wint, Blofeld was *always* in the movie. Don't take the code names as indications that EON/Mendes were uncertain about his inclusion.

That's not true and you know it.

 

It's very true, Mr. Wint.

It was a lesbian women in March 2014, Charlotte, then it was M, then an african warlord, Stockmann, Oberhauser etc. etc.

The female Blofeld and African warlord approaches didn't last long, for obvious reasons. Those were put aside early in the process.

They considered making M a villain, but it's not clear that he was ever going to be Blofeld. It seems that M was going to function the way C does in the finished film.

"Stockmann" was never a real name they intended to use. The studio notes make it clear that the name was just a substitute for the name "Blofeld" to hide the fact that the character was going to be used.

 

The female Blofeld and the African warlord were rejected by executives, at a very late stage I would say. It is not clear if M was going to be Blofeld, but they did toy around with the idea of C being Blofeld. It seems like Ralph Fiennes didn't want to be a villain. The mix between Oberhauser/Blofeld came very late.

And... this discussion only proves the point I originally made. At best, they had decided that there were probably going to be a person called Blofeld in it. You will soon see the result from that.
"Oh, by the way, I am Ernst Stavro Blofeld". "Catchy name."

[stromberg]

"Stockmann" was never a real name they intended to use. The studio notes make it clear that the name was just a substitute for the name "Blofeld" to hide the fact that the character was going to be used.

Scene 174 from the October draft gives it away. C addresses him: "Mister Stockman – Ernst, if I may..." Someone didn't  pay attention there. 

[Harmsway]

The female Blofeld and the African warlord were rejected by executives, at a very late stage I would say.

Mendes only became seriously interested in returning once the Oberhauser angle came into the mix (and that's also when location scouting began). So while it's true EON tried out other angles, none of those were seriously on track for production.

But, even so, the female Blofeld and African warlord versions of Blofeld were still versions of Blofeld. This was always going to be a film that offered a new interpretation of that character.

[Vauxhall]

Exactly. There was always to be a character of that name in some form.

I think the female idea was only briefly dwelled upon, and Mendes/Logan were asked/told to ditch the African warlord idea early in 2014. The Oberhauser concept was there well before filming started; it wasn't a spur of the moment late addition.

[Mr_Wint]

It is more likely that the casting of Waltz prevented Mendes from leaving the project.

Only 3-4 months before planned production start, they had "a new guy" as Blofeld. They had do design everything around the sets/locations they had already prepared.

[SecretAgentFan]

More likely because you assume so - or because you have facts?

[Harmsway]

It is more likely that the casting of Waltz prevented Mendes from leaving the project.

Only 3-4 months before planned production start, they had "a new guy" as Blofeld. They had do design everything around the sets/locations they had already prepared.

Your dislike for the film's finished form is leading you to be very cynical.

There's nothing to support that narrative. A more traditional Blofeld with the Oberhauser backstory came into play in the earlier part of 2014, while John Logan was still working on the script (Irma Bunt was also featured as a character in those drafts), when location scouting began.

Now the script did have substantial rewrites after that point, and the locations and characters shifted (which is why the original round of Bond girl auditions went out the window). But the Bloferhauser angle had been established for a while even if the details kept changing.

[Guy Haines]

Mr. Wint, Blofeld was *always* in the movie. Don't take the code names as indications that EON/Mendes were uncertain about his inclusion.

That's not true and you know it.

It's very true, Mr. Wint.

It was a lesbian women in March 2014, Charlotte, then it was M, then an african warlord, Stockmann, Oberhauser etc. etc.

The female Blofeld and African warlord approaches didn't last long, for obvious reasons. Those were put aside early in the process.
They considered making M a villain, but it's not clear that he was ever going to be Blofeld. It seems that M was going to function the way C does in the finished film.
"Stockmann" was never a real name they intended to use. The studio notes make it clear that the name was just a substitute for the name "Blofeld" to hide the fact that the character was going to be used.

The female Blofeld and the African warlord were rejected by executives, at a very late stage I would say. It is not clear if M was going to be Blofeld, but they did toy around with the idea of C being Blofeld. It seems like Ralph Fiennes didn't want to be a villain. The mix between Oberhauser/Blofeld came very late.
And... this discussion only proves the point I originally made. At best, they had decided that there were probably going to be a person called Blofeld in it. You will soon see the result from that.
"Oh, by the way, I am Ernst Stavro Blofeld". "Catchy name."

It was a bit more than "Oh BTW" wasn't it?

Spoiler

Something about "the man who is inside your head right now is Ernst Stavro Blofeld - a name I adopted from my mother's bloodline"

Which if nothing else proves that Christoph Waltz wasn't lying at all by going around saying he was playing Oberhauser. The character was either born Oberhauser - mother's maiden name Blofeld - or was Oberhauser's stepson and, until senior's death, was known by that surname. In this film, at least, Oberhauser and Blofeld are, through family ties, one and the same person

[Mr_Wint]

It is more likely that the casting of Waltz prevented Mendes from leaving the project.

Only 3-4 months before planned production start, they had "a new guy" as Blofeld. They had do design everything around the sets/locations they had already prepared.

Your dislike for the film's finished form is leading you to be very cynical.

There's nothing to support that narrative. A more traditional Blofeld with the Oberhauser backstory came into play in the earlier part of 2014, while John Logan was still working on the script (Irma Bunt was also featured as a character in those drafts), when location scouting began.

Now the script did have substantial rewrites after that point, and the locations and characters shifted (which is why the original round of Bond girl auditions went out the window). But the Bloferhauser angle had been established for a while even if the details kept changing.

They started work on the script in late 2012.
On May 12, 2014, the President of MGM rejected the idea of a female lesbian Blofeld.

[Harmsway]

They started work on the script in late 2012.

Yeah, before Mendes was back and when it was originally going to be a two-part venture. It appears that the African warlord concept was the dominant approach during the early days of development, perhaps up until May 2014.
 

On May 12, 2014, the President of MGM rejected the idea of a female lesbian Blofeld.

Yes, but it's unclear as to how long that idea was under consideration. It appears that there was a script or treatment following that format, but it also appears to be the case that the structure of the "female Blofeld" storyline was, in very broad strokes, following a similar narrative to the finished film (many of the major set-pieces of the African warlord drafts appear to have carried over throughout the story's various iterations).

It certainly does not appear that the idea of a female Blofeld was entertained for very long, so I'd wager that it's possible a full script was never written around that concept. It might only have been a proposal or treatment. We know that the Oberhauser idea appeared shortly after the female Blofeld idea was tossed aside.

[Vauxhall]

I believe the female idea was pretty short-lived. The African warlord idea appears to have survived much longer.

[Harmsway]

It's a shame that we don't know much about the African warlord notion beyond the fact that it didn't seem to satisfy anyone (besides Logan, possibly). But it survived long enough that EON must have initially believed there was something there worth pursuing.

I wonder if there was a Mr. Big-style dual identity at play, since it's unlikely that the SPECTRE organization, as originally conceived, was only interested in the African continent. It may be that a dual identity for Blofeld was always in the cards.

[Vauxhall]

Yes, I'm not quite sure what they had in mind for that.

Although, of course, that character incarnation is where the Idris Elba and Chiwetel Ejiofor rumours came from, so they were clearly chasing big names even a year or two ago.

[Harmsway]

Remind me, when did we find out that Mendes was officially back on board?

EDIT: The official announcement was July 11, 2013.

[bonds_walther]

Mr. Wint, Blofeld was *always* in the movie. Don't take the code names as indications that EON/Mendes were uncertain about his inclusion.

That's not true and you know it.

It's very true, Mr. Wint.

It was a lesbian women in March 2014, Charlotte, then it was M, then an african warlord, Stockmann, Oberhauser etc. etc.

The female Blofeld and African warlord approaches didn't last long, for obvious reasons. Those were put aside early in the process.

They considered making M a villain, but it's not clear that he was ever going to be Blofeld. It seems that M was going to function the way C does in the finished film.

"Stockmann" was never a real name they intended to use. The studio notes make it clear that the name was just a substitute for the name "Blofeld" to hide the fact that the character was going to be used.

.

I think the 'Stockmann' thing is pretty obvious. A stock man = a stock character = a stock Bond villain = Blofeld.

[kneelbeforezod]

What is evident to me is that they wrote at least 3 different versions of what happens once Waltz is introduced. You would hope rewrites would result in a script that gets progressively better but in this case I think it got slightly worse: the poker game was better than the very uncinematic and confusing torture scene, although both versions aren't exactly great. The last draft of the script that leaked had some fairly delicious dialogue for Waltz but it seems to have been pruned quite a bit. Madeleine's whispered line during the torture scene is hilariously unearned, but hey, it's Bond, I can live with it. 

 

I think they were trying to fix the final act right up until shooting started and simply ran out of time and had to shoot what they had. The last half hour of this film is fitfully entertaining but a complete mess. 

 

That said, the preceding hour and a half is pretty terrific I think, and includes at least two series high points: the wonderful opening shot and basically everything that happens on the train. 

[Simon]

People, over the 50+ years Bond has been going, I am bloody sure that film scripts have undergone similarly massive overhauls in their time.  Only to result in something worthy of at least continuing Bond film momentum.

 

Dr No starring a monkey, anyone?  So right at the very genesis of the series, craziness was embedded.

 

And long may it continue...  (If only to serve internet fan-boys' down-time)

[Hockey Mask]

People, over the 50+ years Bond has been going, I am bloody sure that film scripts have undergone similarly massive overhauls in their time.  Only to result in something worthy of at least continuing Bond film momentum.
 
Dr No starring a monkey, anyone?  So right at the very genesis of the series, craziness was embedded.
 
And long may it continue...  (If only to serve internet fan-boys' down-time)

Bingo!

[solace]

Loved it. Only criticism was I thought the reason for all the death and destruction was a bit weak but other than that. Fab

[bonds_walther]

What is evident to me is that they wrote at least 3 different versions of what happens once Waltz is introduced. You would hope rewrites would result in a script that gets progressively better but in this case I think it got slightly worse: the poker game was better than the very uncinematic and confusing torture scene, although both versions aren't exactly great. The last draft of the script that leaked had some fairly delicious dialogue for Waltz but it seems to have been pruned quite a bit. Madeleine's whispered line during the torture scene is hilariously unearned, but hey, it's Bond, I can live with it.

I think they were trying to fix the final act right up until shooting started and simply ran out of time and had to shoot what they had. The last half hour of this film is fitfully entertaining but a complete mess.

That said, the preceding hour and a half is pretty terrific I think, and includes at least two series high points: the wonderful opening shot and basically everything that happens on the train.

I loved the torture scene. Had me on the edge of my seat (as I haven't read Colonel Sun). I also liked the way it was shot; the blankness of the room echoed Bloferhauser's intentions of blanking Bond's memory with the drill.

Speaking of the drill, Bloferhauser has a line of dialogue that explains the reason why Bond doesn't lose his memory. He mentions that it works when you 'hit the right spot' - or something along those lines. I assumed, from what happens after, that the correct spot in Bond's neck is missed.

[kneelbeforezod]

People, over the 50+ years Bond has been going, I am bloody sure that film scripts have undergone similarly massive overhauls in their time.  Only to result in something worthy of at least continuing Bond film momentum.

Agreed. I don't think anyone is disputing this. 

 

But this is perhaps the first time we've had such a detailed glimpse at the process, and how fraught it was, and how it may have impacted on the quality of the final film.

[Harmsway]

I think last-minute rewrites are standard on any Bond film (in fact, standard on most films, period). A screenplay is typically reworked up until the moment of filming.

It's true that the were was some upheaval regarding the core vision for the story, and essentially three separate visions for SPECTRE's return were considered. But it also appears thar the broad strokes of the story, locations, and characters were in place by September 2014, it would seem, with P&W locking most ot the details in place with the October revision.

The changes between the December revisions and the final film do not strike me as being anything extraordinarily major, and are seemingly in keeping with the late-in-the-day revisions that took place on Skyfall.

[RMc2]

 

People, over the 50+ years Bond has been going, I am bloody sure that film scripts have undergone similarly massive overhauls in their time.  Only to result in something worthy of at least continuing Bond film momentum.
 
Dr No starring a monkey, anyone?  So right at the very genesis of the series, craziness was embedded.
 
And long may it continue...  (If only to serve internet fan-boys' down-time)

Bingo!

 

 

 

[kneelbeforezod]

I think last-minute rewrites are standard on any Bond film (in fact, standard on most films, period). A screenplay is typically reworked up until the moment of filming.

It's true that the were was some upheaval regarding the core vision for the story, and essentially three separate visions for SPECTRE's return were considered. But it also appears thar the broad strokes of the story, locations, and characters were in place by September 2014, it would seem, with P&W locking most ot the details in place with the October revision.

The changes between the December revisions and the final film do not strike me as being anything extraordinarily major, and are seemingly in keeping with the late-in-the-day revisions that took place on Skyfall.

Sure, but they had writers working pretty late in the process to "fix the third act", which wasn't working. I don't think it's much of a leap to suggest that the film's current messy third act is a result of those issues not being fixed. I also think that quite often scripts aren't being rewritten days before shooting. Maybe this is just semantics, we are all more or less in agreement really. 

 

I think the acrimony during the writing process was unusual though. Top execs suggesting a particular writer is a "bit of a fraud". Producers described as being in a "state" and furious with Mendes and Logan. PS. are we allowed to talk about this stuff? It's all freely available on Wikileaks and published all over the internet. 

[Harmsway]

I think it's easy to overstate the acrimony. This sounds like standard stuff to me just hyped up in emails (just speaking from personal experience, gripes in corporate emails tend to over-emphasize the reality). Obviously not everybody on a project of this size gets along. There's more enthusiasm and positive commentary as there is negativity, and sometimes it appears the negativity stems from folks not being on the same page (there's a note from Sam Mendes to Amy Pascal explaining that the October draft was completed just to get the budget/schedule in order, and that the third act wasn't finished when it was submitted for their perusal).

 

I honestly think this stuff is more business as usual than folks are making it out to be. There was a moment where development on Bond 24 wasn't going smoothly (seemingly early May 2014, when Logan and Mendes delivered a long-delayed rewrite and the major parties agreed that it was inferior to the previous drafts), but I don't see much evidence of dramatic infighting beyond that. If you look at the behind-the-scenes material on the other Sony products, you get the vibe that this is just how things go in the movie business.

[Hockey Mask]

People, over the 50+ years Bond has been going, I am bloody sure that film scripts have undergone similarly massive overhauls in their time.  Only to result in something worthy of at least continuing Bond film momentum.
 
Dr No starring a monkey, anyone?  So right at the very genesis of the series, craziness was embedded.
 
And long may it continue...  (If only to serve internet fan-boys' down-time)

Bingo!

 

 

You just say "bingo".

[Guy Haines]

I'm just glad that so far as our villain is concerned, they got there in the end. To use a common phrase where I live they went all round one place to get to another, it seems.

Spoiler

I never read the scripts on line. I was aware of bits of the plot outlines, though. What I was aware of didn't look like the finished article to me. The "Oberhauser/Blofeld" identity issue, for example - after all the stuff mentioned above, it's surprising it was so simple to resolve. So simple. So obvious. So, I didn't see it coming! ;-)

[Simon]

I am just glad Casino Royale '67 wasn't being filmed in the internet age - imagine the viral nonsense that would be associated with that shooting...

 

Mind you, in that case, well deserved.

[DamnCoffee]

I am just glad Casino Royale '67 wasn't being filmed in the internet age - imagine the viral nonsense that would be associated with that shooting...

 

Mind you, in that case, well deserved.

 

Doesn't even bare thinking about...

 

"FIFTH DIRECTOR JOINS BOND SPOOF."

 

"SELLERS AND WELLES' ON SET FUED."

 

"SELLERS REFUSES SHOOTING 'ANYTHING WITH WELLES' ON NEW SPOOF BOND"

Edited by DamnCoffee, 02 November 2015 - 12:23 AM.