39 replies to this topic

[tdalton]

 

 

Also, Fleming writes great cliffhanger endings (only ever reflected in the epilogue of the CR movie). FRWL and YOLT are the best, the latter setting up a fantastic opening for TMWTGG. Probably the best literary end line i've ever read is that CR. It's sends chills down the spine, re-defining the proto-Bond in an instant, from the innocent world view of good guys and bad guys into the ruthless, realist, pragmatic Bond that trusts no one. 

Agreed, the final line in CR is a great one. Although it does work well how it's used in the film. One line from the novel that I would like to see in a film at some point is "3030 was a double." Always loved that line.

 

 

Yep, '3030' is dead cool as well. But i wish they'd kept that whole chunk of dialogue intact in the movie; he should've been on the phone to an HQ operator rather than M and delivered those lines straight from the book, no reply- hangs up. No txt clues left from a remorseful Vesper, just cut straight to the Mr White getting shot scene. There are other ways they could've laid the ground work for how Bond located White.

 

Personally i thought they threw away the 'Bitch is dead now' line - it got lost in the sentimentality of M's effort to console Bond. The effect was that we see Bond from M's point of view - that Bond's cold veneer is a front he's putting on to hide the grief and as a result of this we pity Bond. In the book we don't pity him - we fear him. The reader is devastated and grieving for the couple's lost love and is shocked by Bond's pragmatic, ruthless telephone call to HQ. In an instant Bond becomes unpredictable, dangerous and compelling. This is far more exciting and teasing to the reader than a sad hero - he's out for vengeance and we can't wait for the next book.

 

Sure Bond's no doubt hurting and acting out his anguish and grief, but that's all in the subtext. In the movie, M saying this subtext out loud - trying to rationalise the situation and console Bond dilutes the very point of having that line, 'The bitch is dead now' there in the first place and the line comes across as oddly out of place.

 

This was the only part of CR (the movie) where i felt let down.

 

 

Excellent post.  Agreed completely.

[FlemingBond]

Casino Royale is terrific, of course if you've seen the movie you lose a lot of the shock,

after that, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, From Russia With Love, Moonraker, Thunderball, Live and Let Die would be be my tops.

if you can read them all, all the better.

[seawolfnyy]

 

 

Also, Fleming writes great cliffhanger endings (only ever reflected in the epilogue of the CR movie). FRWL and YOLT are the best, the latter setting up a fantastic opening for TMWTGG. Probably the best literary end line i've ever read is that CR. It's sends chills down the spine, re-defining the proto-Bond in an instant, from the innocent world view of good guys and bad guys into the ruthless, realist, pragmatic Bond that trusts no one. 

Agreed, the final line in CR is a great one. Although it does work well how it's used in the film. One line from the novel that I would like to see in a film at some point is "3030 was a double." Always loved that line.

 

 

Yep, '3030' is dead cool as well. But i wish they'd kept that whole chunk of dialogue intact in the movie; he should've been on the phone to an HQ operator rather than M and delivered those lines straight from the book, no reply- hangs up. No txt clues left from a remorseful Vesper, just cut straight to the Mr White getting shot scene. There are other ways they could've laid the ground work for how Bond located White.

 

Personally i thought they threw away the 'Bitch is dead now' line - it got lost in the sentimentality of M's effort to console Bond. The effect was that we see Bond from M's point of view - that Bond's cold veneer is a front he's putting on to hide the grief and as a result of this we pity Bond. In the book we don't pity him - we fear him. The reader is devastated and grieving for the couple's lost love and is shocked by Bond's pragmatic, ruthless telephone call to HQ. In an instant Bond becomes unpredictable, dangerous and compelling. This is far more exciting and teasing to the reader than a sad hero - he's out for vengeance and we can't wait for the next book.

 

Sure Bond's no doubt hurting and acting out his anguish and grief, but that's all in the subtext. In the movie, M saying this subtext out loud - trying to rationalise the situation and console Bond dilutes the very point of having that line, 'The bitch is dead now' there in the first place and the line comes across as oddly out of place.

 

This was the only part of CR (the movie) where i felt let down.

 

I do agree with that. The phone call between M and Bond I think is one of the most powerful scenes of the whole film. But I also think the part with M explaining to Bond that Vesper helped him was unnecessary. The fact that she left the message for Bond was enough to tell us that she cared. With "the bitch is dead" line, Craig's body language was enough to tell us that he didn't really believe what he was saying and it was all a front to hide his pain.

[Revelator]

 

Yep, '3030' is dead cool as well. But i wish they'd kept that whole chunk of dialogue intact in the movie; he should've been on the phone to an HQ operator rather than M and delivered those lines straight from the book, no reply- hangs up. No txt clues left from a remorseful Vesper, just cut straight to the Mr White getting shot scene...

 

Personally i thought they threw away the 'Bitch is dead now' line - it got lost in the sentimentality of M's effort to console Bond. The effect was that we see Bond from M's point of view - that Bond's cold veneer is a front he's putting on to hide the grief and as a result of this we pity Bond. In the book we don't pity him - we fear him. The reader is devastated and grieving for the couple's lost love and is shocked by Bond's pragmatic, ruthless telephone call to HQ. In an instant Bond becomes unpredictable, dangerous and compelling. This is far more exciting and teasing to the reader than a sad hero - he's out for vengeance and we can't wait for the next book...

 

This was the only part of CR (the movie) where i felt let down.

 

 

Agreed entirely. "The bitch is dead now" derives a lot of force from being the very last line in the book. It ends the novel on a note bereft of consolation and signifies that Bond--who once seemed like he'd become a normal, happy, married human being--has become even more cold and ruthless than he was at the start. What is more, the line signifies a sense of tragic waste--Vesper's betrayal has shown Bond how pathetic his own efforts have been, how he has been doing little more than "playing red Indians." In the film, we're instead given a happier ending, where Vesper sacrifices herself and gives Bond the clues to bring the real bad guys down. But in the book Bond is left with nothing more than his rage and a desire for vengeance. Vesper's death brings no clues, and Bond ceases entirely to love her (though in later books he seems to soften)--his grief has mutated into something else entirely. The movie thus throws a sop to the audience--it backs away from the bitterness of its source. And as fine as the film was, I was also let down by the substitution of poker for baccarat (which can be explained onscreen far more easily and quickly than poker), by the forced attempts at humor in the torture scene (Bond ought to have been barely able to speak), and Vesper's demise (the collapsing house business detracts from it, and we don't get to see the couple's relationship collapse beforehand).

[Major Tallon]

I read somewhere that Purvis and Wade had originally intended to use the novel's final line as the last line in the movie, but that it got changed as part of the revision process.  I'd also have liked to see baccarat, but poker was more familiar to modern audiences, at least in the US.

 

I wonder whether the humor in the torture scene was introduced in an effort to prevent the film from getting an R rating.  For the same reason, no blood was seen to result from the beating.  I can imagine that had Craig portrayed a more pronounced physical reaction to the torture, had the sequence not been softened in some way (such as by including humor), or had blood been seen dripping or pooling beneath the chair, they'd have been slapped with the more restrictive R rating.

[tdalton]

I read somewhere that Purvis and Wade had originally intended to use the novel's final line as the last line in the movie, but that it got changed as part of the revision process.  I'd also have liked to see baccarat, but poker was more familiar to modern audiences, at least in the US.

 

I remember reading that somewhere as well.  It's a shame that they didn't include the original ending.  They could have easily still had the "Bond, James Bond" ending to take the film directly into the end credits, but having the novel's ending directly preceding that rather than an exposition-heavy phone call between Bond and M would have been a much better way to go and would have had much more of an emotional impact.

[seawolfnyy]

 

I read somewhere that Purvis and Wade had originally intended to use the novel's final line as the last line in the movie, but that it got changed as part of the revision process.  I'd also have liked to see baccarat, but poker was more familiar to modern audiences, at least in the US.

 

I remember reading that somewhere as well.  It's a shame that they didn't include the original ending.  They could have easily still had the "Bond, James Bond" ending to take the film directly into the end credits, but having the novel's ending directly preceding that rather than an exposition-heavy phone call between Bond and M would have been a much better way to go and would have had much more of an emotional impact.

 

Agreed. The part with M explaining to Bond that Vesper made a deal to save Bond's life was already evident. She left the message on her phone intentionally knowing Bond would check it and follow her. It was unnecessary for M to explain it and try to calm Bond after he says "the bitch is dead." The man just learned that the woman he loved betrayed him and killed herself. Let the man grieve for a bit.

[Revelator]

I read somewhere that Purvis and Wade had originally intended to use the novel's final line as the last line in the movie, but that it got changed as part of the revision process.  I'd also have liked to see baccarat, but poker was more familiar to modern audiences, at least in the US.

 

I wonder whether the humor in the torture scene was introduced in an effort to prevent the film from getting an R rating.  For the same reason, no blood was seen to result from the beating.  I can imagine that had Craig portrayed a more pronounced physical reaction to the torture, had the sequence not been softened in some way (such as by including humor), or had blood been seen dripping or pooling beneath the chair, they'd have been slapped with the more restrictive R rating.

 

 

I think the theory about the R rating is a very plausible explanation for the absence of blood, and perhaps for the humor too. The filmmakers must have been strongly aware of the need to keep the rating down. Strange that a novel published in 1953 should still enjoy more freedom of graphic content than a film made in the past decade.

I've heard that Michael G. Wilson is a big poker fan, and the game is indeed better known in the U.S. But it's a fundamentally un-Bondian game, and it felt like the filmmakers were trying to cash in on a fad, whereas if they'd played their cards right (forgive the pun), they could have started a baccarat craze.

I'd quite like to read Purvis and Wade's original drafts (ditto for their mostly unused work in QoS). IIRC, the elaborate collapsing house business was Haggis's idea, and while Haggis certainly contributed excellent dialogue, perhaps his influence was less beneficial when it came to plotting.

[Major Tallon]

As I say, I'd have preferred baccarat, a game that's more classically Bondian, although our man's been known to play poker.  There was, for example, that evening at Blades when "he had burnt his fingers badly in a high poker game" (Moonraker, Chapter 3).  And, by all means, I'd love to see the original scripts for both films.

[Odd Jobbies]

 

I read somewhere that Purvis and Wade had originally intended to use the novel's final line as the last line in the movie, but that it got changed as part of the revision process.  I'd also have liked to see baccarat, but poker was more familiar to modern audiences, at least in the US.

 

I remember reading that somewhere as well.  It's a shame that they didn't include the original ending.  They could have easily still had the "Bond, James Bond" ending to take the film directly into the end credits, but having the novel's ending directly preceding that rather than an exposition-heavy phone call between Bond and M would have been a much better way to go and would have had much more of an emotional impact.

 

 

Absolutely a better way to end the film; 'The bitch is dead now...', straight into Bond finding white - that's a cut with a hard edge, just like the post-Vesper Bond.

 

And if that's true about P&W wanting to end the film like the book, then i owe them a fat apology for bad mouthing them for their scripts. Having said that, they can't write dialogue that's not 100% clunky, cheesy and contrived, but perhaps they had more respect for Fleming's genius than it appeared.

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 08 January 2013 - 10:40 PM.