513 replies to this topic

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

If Idris Elba or any black male ever became Bond, I would stop watching Bond completely. 

Me too. I would still watch the back catalogue though... Ian Fleming gave Bond Scottish-Swiss ancestry and making Bond black would be a sign of Fleming being completely tossed aside. And I wholly agree with AMC Hornet said about identifying oneself with a character.

 

Black Bond is as dumb idea as Korean Dracula.

Edited by AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän, 20 February 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[Binyamin]

Hey, Let's make Captain Kirk black, and get a pale redhead to play Uhura. Because, diversity.

[Odd Jobbies]

If Idris Elba or any black male ever became Bond, I would stop watching Bond completely. 

Me too. I would still watch the back catalogue though... Ian Fleming gave Bond Scottish-Swiss ancestry and making Bond black would be a sign of Fleming being completely tossed aside. And I wholly agree with AMC Hornet said about identifying oneself with a character.

 

Black Bond is as dumb idea as Korean Dracula.

You should watch the 2009 South Korean film THIRST. It's not exactly Dracula, but it's one of the best vampire films ever made.

[Dustin]

Sorry, am pressed for time today. I'll further elaborate tomorrow.

[AMC Hornet]

I think I've got it now.

 

If I were an aficionado of Wild Wild West, I might have balked and squawked at the idea of casting Will Smith as James West. As it is I didn't mind (as he certainly wasn't the problem with the movie). Same goes for the Lone Ranger - go ahead and make him a Buffalo soldier turned Texas Ranger. A black Doctor Who? Go for it. In the latest incarnation of Sherlock Holmes, Holmes lives in New York and Dr. Watson is played by Lucy Liu. Not my problem.

 

Because they're not my heroes.

(Well, Doctor who yes, but such a regeneration is not a total impossibility, is it?)

 

I'm not racist - I'm selfish. I want Bond to remain what he's always been, which is a character with whom I can identify. Making him black would be a statement - his being white wasn't, it was just a natural extension of his creator, who happens to have the same cultural background as I have (and who was born in a time when that culture dominated, I know - that certainly didn't hurt his prospects when seeking to get published in the 1950s). I could try to write from a black or female or gay perspective, but I don't think I could pull it off very well ("All women love semi-rape" - right, Ian).

 

Bond has been 6'2", 5'11", Fair, dark, blue-eyed, brown-eyed, grey-green-eyed, Scottish, Australian, Irish, Welsh...but he's always been caucasian and British (thank God John Gavin and James Brolin didn't make it!). Hugh Jackman and Sam Neill would have done quite well, I think.

 

If Idris Elba or Puff Diddy want to talk about being Bond, let Barbara tell them "Okay, but you'll be playing the character gay [which wouldn't surprise some people here], and for the sake of diversity your love interest will be Steven Seagal."

 

Then cooler heads should prevail - or the series will die altogether and someone else can try again in a few years.

[Hockey Mask]

I too, do not want a black Bond. But I bet a good black portrayal with some quality scripts and I'd be saying, "I don't know what i was worried about."

[AMC Hornet]

Hear, hear.

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

I too, do not want a black Bond. But I bet a good black portrayal with some quality scripts and I'd be saying, "I don't know what i was worried about."

I wouldn't.

[SecretAgentFan]

At this point in time, it seems rather unbelievable for Bond to be re-established as a black character. 

 

For 50 years his main characteristics have been: British, straight, white.

 

Would it be inconceivable for him to become British, straight, black? 

 

Right now, maybe.

 

But who knows?

 

It´s all about perceptions. Right now, our "WASP" ideas of black still carry some prejudices.

 

But what exactly do we fear, should Bond become black? Him talking jive? Listening to rap? Talking loudly in a movie theatre?

 

C´mon.

 

It all depends on the casting. It was the same with Daniel Craig. Not tall. Not dark haired. Not conventionally handsome. But still he has everything James Bond should be like. If cast well, a black actor could be a perfect Bond just as well.

 

Of course, he would never succeed for those audiences who still hate Craig. Or Brosnan. Or Dalton. Or Moore. Or Lazenby. But hey, if you only like one thing and cry foul if your expectations are not met exactly as you want, you´ll have a very tough time with life in general.

 

Granted, right now and in the foreseeable future, I do think that most audiences are still not ready for a change from white to black. 

 

But in 20, 30 years? 

 

Let´s face it: James Bond is a character that has to be re-invented again and again. Just as he has been already during the last 50 years. 

 

It´s all about your own personal assumptions of what is right and what is wrong.

 

If you do not like a black Bond - fine.

 

But don´t fool yourself into thinking that Bond can only be depicted in one shape or form. If so, you should have stopped after Sean Connery left.

 

Having said that - the Elba story is just a PR thing, re-heated by Elba´s publicity guys. And it worked perfectly - we´re debating it for months now.

Edited by SecretAgentFan, 21 February 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[tdalton]

It'll happen eventually, and I can't really say that I care one way or the other.  If after Craig hangs up the tux, EON goes through the whole process again and EON decides that Elba can best portray James Bond, then I'll go to see the film with the same enthusiasm I go to see any Bond film with.

 

With that said, I would have to think that, if Elba has already met with EON about this, that the meeting was more likely regarding the possibility of playing Blofeld or, going along with the idea of him playing Bond, another government agent who could be a Trevelyna-type villain for Craig's Bond to go up against.  By the time that Craig gets to the end of his tenure, Elba would be too old to make his debut as Bond.

Edited by tdalton, 21 February 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Dustin]

I think I've got it now.

 

If I were an aficionado of Wild Wild West, I might have balked and squawked at the idea of casting Will Smith as James West. As it is I didn't mind (as he certainly wasn't the problem with the movie). Same goes for the Lone Ranger - go ahead and make him a Buffalo soldier turned Texas Ranger. A black Doctor Who? Go for it. In the latest incarnation of Sherlock Holmes, Holmes lives in New York and Dr. Watson is played by Lucy Liu. Not my problem.

 

Because they're not my heroes.

(Well, Doctor who yes, but such a regeneration is not a total impossibility, is it?)

 

I'm not racist - I'm selfish. I want Bond to remain what he's always been, which is a character with whom I can identify. Making him black would be a statement - his being white wasn't, it was just a natural extension of his creator, who happens to have the same cultural background as I have (and who was born in a time when that culture dominated, I know - that certainly didn't hurt his prospects when seeking to get published in the 1950s). I could try to write from a black or female or gay perspective, but I don't think I could pull it off very well ("All women love semi-rape" - right, Ian).

 

Bond has been 6'2", 5'11", Fair, dark, blue-eyed, brown-eyed, grey-green-eyed, Scottish, Australian, Irish, Welsh...but he's always been caucasian and British (thank God John Gavin and James Brolin didn't make it!). Hugh Jackman and Sam Neill would have done quite well, I think.

 

If Idris Elba or Puff Diddy want to talk about being Bond, let Barbara tell them "Okay, but you'll be playing the character gay [which wouldn't surprise some people here], and for the sake of diversity your love interest will be Steven Seagal."

 

Then cooler heads should prevail - or the series will die altogether and someone else can try again in a few years.

 

 

Wait a sec, I think we discuss this under a wrong premise, perhaps because I didn't express myself clear enough. We assume people can't relate to a black character because they are not black themselves. But that's not what I meant, nor what is happening in reality. Of course black male audiences are identifying themselves with Bond pretty much the same all males do. And vice versa I can identify with a black character (and indeed used to identify with Shaft when I was a young punk in the early 80s), it's not even hard when the colour of skin is no issue for the character as such. Which is perhaps why the oft-used Shaft argument leads us in the wrong direction. Shaft was conceived from square one as a character whose main trait was having made it in spite of being black, with a snobbish attitude that rivals Bond's. I recommend Ernest Tidyman's original novels about the character, which were much less streamlined and tamed than the films. Oh, by the by here's a picture of Ernest Tidyman:

 

 

Looks like the typical Black Power activist, doesn't he?

 

 

 

No, what I meant was that Bond is defined in the meta-sub-conscious of pop-culture with a certain set of features, but the sum of those features is still remarkably malleable. We do accept an awful lot when the label 'Bond' is attached to something, comedy, action, drama, science fact and whatnot.

 

So why do I think we won't see a black (or Indian or Asian or redneck-trailertrash) Bond for the foreseeable future?

 

Because Bond will for the most part always choose the easy way with audiences. And even non-Caucasian audiences are used to a 'white' Bond. That's not the same as 'wanting' a 'white' Bond, it's just the natural effect of fifty years of iconography that comes with 007. You don't temper with that just for fun. Most people would see the casting of a black Bond as a cheap stunt, and they wouldn't be entirely wrong, would they? 

 

What we have to keep in mind is, it's never about us as fans. It's always about convincing those casual cinema goers that make up the main part of the audience around the world from Tangier to Timbuctoo and Berlin to Beijing. Those are the ones Eon has to convince and thrill with their product. I've read repeatedly now a black Bond would be the reason for some to quit the series altogether.

 

No, I don't think so. Given what fans have put up with in the past most of us would see the first - and probably all subsequent - films with a black Bond. And get the blue-ray-steelbook-extended-7-hours-director-cut-with-audio-comment-by-Ian-Fleming-himself-praising-the-result.

 

We are fans, aren't we?     

Edited by Dustin, 21 February 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

I certainly hope that I won't happen during my lifetime. Changing 007's ethnicity certainly is a deviation one step too far from which Ian Fleming wrote. Craig might have blondish hair and is 2 inches too short but apart from that, he is spot on to Flemings Bond.

[Dustin]

But that is the point, Fleming's Bond isn't cinema's Bond. The cinema version - Eon's version - has come so much farther than Fleming could ever have dreamt. Bond is now an entertainment character who follows a completely different set of rules, with an obligation to keep hundreds of people in their jobs and make a fortune for the investors every two to three years on average. Keeping that machine going is the main concern for the producers. I don't think it will happen soon, but neither do I think it's entirely beyond conceivable imagination.

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

I agree with you Dustin that cinematic Bond has evolved/strayed far from what Fleming wrote, and has become it's own distinct animal. Still, he has always been portrayed (by EON) as a British white heterosexual male working for the British Secret Service and each of those are essential core attributes which cannot be changed, IMO.

 

I see Bond as a similar character as Sherlock Holmes or Tarzan - they can be updated, rebooted and approached from different angles but the core attributes always remain intact. 

Edited by AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän, 21 February 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[Dustin]

Tarzan is a pretty good example, the white ape-man amongst the savage dangers of Africa's jungles. His being white is actually a defining trait - ironically because he's a white savage, yet noble-minded and the master of the beasts and dangers of his world because of it. Making him black would make him ordinary in his habitat, he wouldn't stick out any more. Bond of course is white, too. But that isn't what defines him as Bond. That's his resilience, his giant gift of endurance, tolerance of pain, his courage and resolution. Together with a size-the-day/devil-may-care mindset that serves as a counterbalance to all the ubermensch qualities of the romantic - and antiquated - hero of the Bronte era. Non of these qualities are limited to Caucasian characters, it just so happens they crystallise in a Briton - of mixed heritage - of the mid-twentieth century. A Briton of the mid-twentyfirst century could well be imagined different. And I have little doubt Bond will still be with us around 2063 and past that day.

[DominicGreene]

The thing is that cinematic Bond characteristics have become heritage. Heritages have lasted hundreds, thousands of years—why can't Bond always be caucasian? Or until the series ends? Why is there a reason to switch to an Indian/Black/Etc Bond? So we can please our "great" multicultural society? How do other cultures have the right to intrude on this? So, one day it will be okay for Bond to become another race, but God forbid a character of another race would become caucasian. 

 

I just hope our cinematic Bond has enough dignity to kill itself before it stretches that far.

Edited by DominicGreene, 22 February 2013 - 01:06 AM.

[Dustin]

The thing is that cinematic Bond characteristics have become heritage. Heritages have lasted hundreds, thousands of years—why can't Bond always be caucasian?

Heritage is perhaps not a good argument. Because in fact it's always subject to change. If it were not it would immediately become obsolete once the circumstances of a society don't call for it any more. We do not sell our children any more, do not burn witches and most of us don't actually believe in 'magic thinking' any more. All that 'traditions' and part of human 'heritage'. Now regarded as obsolete by civilised cultures.

Why is there a reason to switch to an Indian/Black/Etc Bond? So we can please our "great" multicultural society?

You might as well ask why time moves onward: no idea really. Something to do with entropy probably. All I do know is we won't be able to preserve our current idea of Bond once and for ever. Nobody knows what future generations make of it.

How do other cultures have the right to intrude on this?

When exactly did we switch from a black actor to 'other cultures'? And what makes you think other cultures need a permission to intrude? Would you rather they don't enjoy Bond?

So, one day it will be okay for Bond to become another race, but God forbid a character of another race would become caucasian.

Don't know if any god cares either way, probably not. If there is some wildly overblown outcry from other races about our (our = 'white') ambitions to claim their icons for us I'm not aware of it. What character(s) would that be in particular?

Edited by Dustin, 22 February 2013 - 05:47 AM.

[Aston V8]

So tired of this popping up.  Bond is not black, Bond is not a woman, Bond is not gay. 

[Mallory]

I wish the Idris Elba rumor never happened. It takes away some of the fun in watching Craig's films. He is going to be Bond for at least two more films. I even saw a post how Craig looks bored in the role for Skyfall but it seems to me he really enjoys it.

[Zographos]

The thing is that cinematic Bond characteristics have become heritage. Heritages have lasted hundreds, thousands of years—why can't Bond always be caucasian? Or until the series ends? Why is there a reason to switch to an Indian/Black/Etc Bond? So we can please our "great" multicultural society? How do other cultures have the right to intrude on this? So, one day it will be okay for Bond to become another race, but God forbid a character of another race would become caucasian. 

 

I just hope our cinematic Bond has enough dignity to kill itself before it stretches that far.

Fair enough, but why should a black Bond necessitate cultural difference?  Seems like you're discussing two different things.  Surely a black person born in the UK, who regards himself as culturally British, wouldn't be an "intrusion", as far as that goes?

 

Idris Elba was born in London.  He is more English than Sean Connery and George Lazenby when it comes down to it.  To regard him as an "other" wouldn't be terribly generous, I think.  It would be reducing culture down to skin colour, when it's really so much more.

[DominicGreene]

I only say other cultures (I meant to say ethnicities) because if Bond were to become of African ethnicity, then the character would become much more flexible. People would say "If Bond can become Black, why not Middle Eastern? Indian? East Asian? Hispanic? A mix? 

 

In that paragraph I've got culture and ethnicity mixed up, but you got the point.

 

As for the outcry, I am unable to think of specific characters at the moment; but I'm sure at some point in time there will be hypocrisy if Bond's ethnicity changes.

 

As for heritage, I just meant smaller traditional heritage things that all cultures have done for hundreds or thousands of years.

 

I understand what you are saying Zographos, but it doesn't come down to culture it comes down to ethnicity. 

[jmarks4life]

As an African-American, I wouldn't want to see Bond be a African-American. It was ok to have a African-American play Felix Leiter, and even see a African-American play Miss Moneypenny, but Bond has got to stay Caucasian. I'm old school & I would hate to see a change in skin color to Bond. If theyre trying to expand to a broader audience I could understand. Bring back the African-American Felix and make him have a larger role and I'm cool with that.

[007jamesbond]

It just won't happen, I can't imagine the amount of racist there will be against him playing it will never stop worse than Craig haters 

[FutureJamesBond]

It would be awkward. Fleming designed the character to be of Scottish-Swiss descent, and it would kind of just throw the whole "Ian-Fleming-Made-This-Character" thing away.

[coco1997]

Not sure if this question has been raised but I figured I'd bring it up: Say, hypothetically, Elba was to replace Craig as Bond. Does that mean Bond would become a black character for good? In other words, must the actor who succeeds Elba himself be black? I ask this because if James Bond becoming a black character demonstrates how the franchise and society have "evolved", then wouldn't making the character Caucasian again be, in a sense, a sign of 'devolution'?

[quantumofsolace]

http://www.entertain...y-Naomie-Harris

[Walecs]

Since when James Bond left MI6 for MI5?

[Grard Bond]

So tired of this popping up.  Bond is not black, Bond is not a woman, Bond is not gay. 

You said it man!

How difficult is it to understand this simple fact (or facts)?

 

Even if you don't count he is not caucasion, then he still is not the right choice for the part.

You also don't want someone like Jason Statham or Dwayne -The Rock- Johnson in the part, don't you?

 

I liked Elba a lot in movies like  Prometheus and Ghost Rider 2 and he will realy awsome in next summer's mega blockbuster Pacific Rim,

but as Bond? No, don't think so!

[S K Y F A L L]

If I`m following all the facts here; all I know is that Idris Elba met with the producers and that is all we know, right?

They could be just lining someone up if Craig decides to walk away from the role or for another character altogether? 

 

If they cast Idris Elba as 007, I'd be alright with it. He's very cool, very Will Smith-esque. 

What about a Jay-Z featuring Beyonce theme song; 'We Are All Black In The Dark'.

I'd do it like the way they did the XXX films when they went from Van Diesel to Ice Cube and from rock to rap. 

Lee Tamahori directed XXX:STATE OF THE UNION, perhaps he could return to smooth out the transition. 

Re-cast M with Academy Award nominee Oprah Winfrey and this would explain all Bond`s new cars with Obama bumper stickers.  

I`m sure Don Chealdle would step in as the new Q and how about Samuel L Jackson as Blofeld. 

"Enough is enough! I have had it with this motherf*** 007 infiltrating my motherf*** liar!"

 

Instant Classic? 

[QOS4EVER]

If I`m following all the facts here; all I know is that Idris Elba met with the producers and that is all we know, right?

They could be just lining someone up if Craig decides to walk away from the role or for another character altogether? 

 

If they cast Idris Elba as 007, I'd be alright with it. He's very cool, very Will Smith-esque. 

What about a Jay-Z featuring Beyonce theme song; 'We Are All Black In The Dark'.

I'd do it like the way they did the XXX films when they went from Van Diesel to Ice Cube and from rock to rap. 

Lee Tamahori directed XXX:STATE OF THE UNION, perhaps he could return to smooth out the transition. 

Re-cast M with Academy Award nominee Oprah Winfrey and this would explain all Bond`s new cars with Obama bumper stickers.  

I`m sure Don Chealdle would step in as the new Q and how about Samuel L Jackson as Blofeld. 

"Enough is enough! I have had it with this motherf*** 007 infiltrating my motherf*** liar!"

 

Instant Classic?