99 replies to this topic

[Major Tallon]

I agree with Shrublands and Pussfeller concerning "Moonraker."

A large part of my problem with the puns, apart from the fact that they'd become so groan-inducingly bad, was that the entire concept had lost its freshness. Somebody would say something including an obvious set-up line, or some particular action scene would occur, and it was time for the obligatory pun, funny or not.

I'm more a fan of the serious Bond, but lots of fans enjoy some humor, and I don't object when the films include some light touches (the movies are made for all of us, with all our differing tastes, after all), but let the fun be of the clever, truly amusing variety, not trite little puns masquerading as wit.

[Guy Haines]

Some very interesting posts so far, so having started this thread I thought I'd jump back in. From what I've read here, and elsewhere, if the one liners are back I think we are could see the return of the kind of deadpan black humour seen in the mid 60s Bonds, which I think would be no bad thing. Bond has got the "Vesper" issue out of his system - at least until "Quantum", or whatever they call themselves in future return.

I've read the article in Empire magazine about Skyfall, and I'm intrigued that as well as the references to FRWL and LALD as Bond films which affected Messrs Craig and Mendes, the article claims that Skyfall may be influenced by LTK and YOLT also.

I'm especially interested in the reference to You Only Live Twice. "Twice" as in big budget sets and gadgets? Or "Twice" as in unused Fleming source material? We'll see.

[glidrose]

I don't know why a fan of DAD would even invite the comparison. Even the special effects in MR are better than those in DAD, to say nothing of the music, cinematography, characterization, dialogue, wit, acting talent, and overall watchability. Moonraker has a reputation for extravagance because of its subject matter, but tonally it's a very restrained, subdued film. It's smooth, cool, even quiet, and (like the best of the Moore era) gently surreal.

Lush is the word I've always used to describe the film. For that reason John Barry's score has to me always seemed to gild the lily.

I like both films, but MR is almost consistent excellence, while DAD is flawed and uneven.

As for the quips, I can take them, I can leave them, but during the Moore and Brosnan eras there were too many of them. Oddly TSWLM seems to have a surfeit of them.

[solace]

If Bond used them after ultra violent scenes etc it would work ala Thunderball "Ithink he got the point"

[bill007]

From QoS....

Camille: So, what's your interest in Greene?
Bond: Among other things, he tried to kill a friend of mine.
Camille: A woman?
Bond: Yes. But it's not what you think.
Camille: Your mother?
Bond: She likes to think so.

I thought that was classic 007.

[JCRendle]

Maybe they'll use the fact that the humours back in the advertising...

[MajorB]

To me, the one-liners were bad when they were just an excuse for rotten puns. But I'd like more stuff like "You okay?" and "I wouldn't dream of it" from the defibrillator scene in CR and "I think she has handcuffs"/"I do hope so" from QoS. Those are character-based and funny and I'd enjoy seeing more of that kind of humor in Skyfall.

[Shrublands]

To me, the one-liners were bad when they were just an excuse for rotten puns. But I'd like more stuff like "You okay?" and "I wouldn't dream of it" from the defibrillator scene in CR and "I think she has handcuffs"/"I do hope so" from QoS. Those are character-based and funny and I'd enjoy seeing more of that kind of humor in Skyfall.

I can't understand why some people think the "I wouldn't dream of it" from the defibrillator scene funny. I see how it is supposed to be funny, but it's simply not good enough. It's like "time to get out." delivered and positioned like a good one-liner but not. I find this sort of thing very odd in the Craig films - I can't understand what they are trying to do.

[Major Tallon]

To me, the one-liners were bad when they were just an excuse for rotten puns. But I'd like more stuff like "You okay?" and "I wouldn't dream of it" from the defibrillator scene in CR and "I think she has handcuffs"/"I do hope so" from QoS. Those are character-based and funny and I'd enjoy seeing more of that kind of humor in Skyfall.

I can't understand why some people think the "I wouldn't dream of it" from the defibrillator scene funny. I see how it is supposed to be funny, but it's simply not good enough. It's like "time to get out." delivered and positioned like a good one-liner but not. I find this sort of thing very odd in the Craig films - I can't understand what they are trying to do.

My nominees for cleverest, most amusing lines, in QOS are "My friends call me Dominic"/ "I'm sure they do" and "Your mother?"/ "She likes to think so." Neither is laugh-out-loud funny, but both are unexpected, revelatory of character, and ironic, which isn't bad for an illustration of wit. And for those who want something broader, there's that over-talkative taxi driver who is simply a riot.

I expect "Skyfall" to be somewhat more obvious in its humor, to counterbalance the more emotional scenes, and I'm ok with that.

[glidrose]

To me, the one-liners were bad when they were just an excuse for rotten puns. But I'd like more stuff like "You okay?" and "I wouldn't dream of it" from the defibrillator scene in CR and "I think she has handcuffs"/"I do hope so" from QoS. Those are character-based and funny and I'd enjoy seeing more of that kind of humor in Skyfall.

I can't understand why some people think the "I wouldn't dream of it" from the defibrillator scene funny. I see how it is supposed to be funny, but it's simply not good enough. It's like "time to get out." delivered and positioned like a good one-liner but not. I find this sort of thing very odd in the Craig films - I can't understand what they are trying to do.

My nominees for cleverest, most amusing lines, in QOS are "My friends call me Dominic"/ "I'm sure they do" and "Your mother?"/ "She likes to think so." Neither is laugh-out-loud funny, but both are unexpected, revelatory of character, and ironic, which isn't bad for an illustration of wit. And for those who want something broader, there's that over-talkative taxi driver who is simply a riot.

I expect "Skyfall" to be somewhat more obvious in its humor, to counterbalance the more emotional scenes, and I'm ok with that.

The two examples you cite are IMHO terrible.

On the other hand, my personal favorite is "That last hand nearly killed me." A true gem. I welcome one-liners like that.

[Major Tallon]

It won't surprise you that I like the ones I cited better. To each his own, I suppose.

[JCRendle]

http://www.thesun.co...n-Istanbul.html

“The humour is not something we try to do but it just comes from the situations.

“I think there are some very funny lines in it but then I have a very dark sense of humour, so others might not agree with me.”

[Judo chop]

To me, the one-liners were bad when they were just an excuse for rotten puns. But I'd like more stuff like "You okay?" and "I wouldn't dream of it" from the defibrillator scene in CR and "I think she has handcuffs"/"I do hope so" from QoS. Those are character-based and funny and I'd enjoy seeing more of that kind of humor in Skyfall.

I can't understand why some people think the "I wouldn't dream of it" from the defibrillator scene funny. I see how it is supposed to be funny, but it's simply not good enough. It's like "time to get out." delivered and positioned like a good one-liner but not. I find this sort of thing very odd in the Craig films - I can't understand what they are trying to do.

That line is a big neck-wrenching nod to Brosnan's Bond. Craig even takes on Brosnan's physical mannerisms from TND as he straightens himself out. Craig intended it. It's too close to doubt.

As for the reason... well, I figure it's a quick 'thank you' to the guy who went before him and to the guy who told him 'go for it'. That's just my speculation.

So, whether that is funny or not, is a matter of personal opinion. I guess I wouldn't call it 'funny', but I like it. I don't mind the recycled bit here and there for the sake of honoring the past.

[AMC Hornet]

Was Brosnan the only Bond to smooth himself out after a brush with disaster?

Perhaps Craig was acknowledging Connery, who readjusted his lines after slugging the 'widow' Bouvard, or Lazenby, who squared his shoulders before facing M, or Jaws, who dusted himself down after being tossed from a train...

Or maybe it was the right move for the occasion - as it was in all those other scenes - so it was not so much a 'nod' to another actor as an attempt to show Craig in character.

And "I wouldn't dream of it" had incarnations earlier than GE:

"You're not trying to take advantage of me, are you?"
"The thought never crossed my mind" (with a huge dose of Moore insincerity).

Craig's character may be a new beginning, but he's still supposed to be the 'same' character, so of course Craig will draw on what worked before, without it necessarily being a nod to any particular predecessor. Each actor down the line has done the same.

(BTW, when Pierce straightened his tie before haring off in that tank, that's when he won me over!)

[Judo chop]

Was Brosnan the only Bond to smooth himself out after a brush with disaster?

Of course not.

It's the line in conjunction with the performance that leads me to my conclusion. Compare side-by-side with Brosnan's delivery of it.

And "I wouldn't dream of it" had incarnations earlier than GE:

"You're not trying to take advantage of me, are you?"
"The thought never crossed my mind" (with a huge dose of Moore insincerity).

Sure. That huge dose of Moore insincerity is a recognizable trait. There are definite Mooreisms and they would have been pretty easy to identify, had Craig decided to mimic one (and been successful at doing so).

I'm certainly not saying that every line Craig delivers is a nod to someone somewhere. I'm not saying any of them are, except this one. I didn't set out looking for them, but it doesn't mean they can't be there.

[AMC Hornet]

Well argued, Judo, and I'm not really criticizing you or trying to 'correct' you - I'm just being a prick.

Funny, though, that whenever Pierce did something reminiscent of Connery or Moore he was criticized for copying them, and when he expressed his own take on the character he wasn't being enough like them, while everything Craig does - original or not - is golden.

It's all in what or who you like, I suppose. If the internet had been what it is now, I expect there would have been a <piercebrosnanisnotbond.com> in 1994.

What counts as a 'classic' line is also subjective. Personally, I find "Shocking - positively shocking!" to be obvious and groan inducing, while "Come on, put your back into it" followed by "They left ages ago" never fails to get a chuckle from me.

And a chuckle is all we should want. Moonraker is so full of sight gags and belly laughs that I wondered who the film was made for - Bond fans or adolescent Star Wars geeks? (Please don't say both.)

I trust that Logan, Mendes, et al will get the balance right this time. They have enough material and feedback to work from.

[bill007]

Yet another perfectly fun thread descending into muck. Constant quivelling about who's ideas or opinions are better than another's. Is it any wonder why I post so little these days.

T'was a good run Guy.

[AMC Hornet]

My Spell Check doesn't recognize the word "quivelling" - perhaps I should reset it to American English.

Edited by AMC Hornet, 04 May 2012 - 01:16 AM.

[Pussfeller]

Snivel + quibble = quivel

[AMC Hornet]

Edited by AMC Hornet, 04 May 2012 - 03:53 AM.

[201050]

"That last hand nearly killed me." is about the extent of the one-liners I care for.

[stamper]

Don't tell me you didn't laugh at the "play it again, sam" line in Mooraker folks. classic Bond

[Leon]

http://www.thesun.co...n-Istanbul.html

“The humour is not something we try to do but it just comes from the situations.

“I think there are some very funny lines in it but then I have a very dark sense of humour, so others might not agree with me.”

Interesting. Sounds good to me, I doubt Craig would be found cracking groaners like Moore (or telling tigers to sit and swinging through the trees to a Tarzan dub). I'm sure we'll get some good stuff. I liked the humour in CR very much, and the lighter side to Bond particularly where he's chatting up Solange. Connery had some dark one-liners - 'Sergeant, make sure he doesn't get away.' *corpse*, 'I think they were on their way to a funeral', 'It's a Smith & Wesson.. and you've had your six.' *fires*, 'You won't be needing *this*.. old man!' *corpse*

Those kind of lines would suit Craig perfectly.

[thecasinoroyale]

It was basically Moore who had a lot of the best, proper cheesy puns and Connery/Dalton who had the most serious and character based puns. Brosnan dipped in and out between the two (and when he straigtens his tie underwater during the Q-Boat/Sunseek chase in 'TWINE' is genius!)

Criag just needs to focus his character to the Connery/Dalton vibe and stick with that basically. The puns all work for the actor delivering them and in the context of the film, no matter how bad they are, that is what made the Bond films so iconic...and no-one can deny it, don't try!

[Golddragon71]

Brosnan dipped in and out between the two (and when he straigtens his tie underwater during the Q-Boat/Sunseek chase in 'TWINE' is genius!)

One of my favorite scenes in the whole movie. the only thing I didn't like in TWINE though was when they made zukovsky into a more cartoonish "Nice Guy" He was much better in Goldeneye.

Edited by Golddragon71, 12 June 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[The Shark]

Brosnan dipped in and out between the two (and when he straigtens his tie underwater during the Q-Boat/Sunseek chase in 'TWINE' is genius!)

That was downright risible.

[Shrublands]

Brosnan dipped in and out between the two (and when he straigtens his tie underwater during the Q-Boat/Sunseek chase in 'TWINE' is genius!)

That was downright risible.

Agreed. Why straighten your tie underwater anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to do it once you’ve splashed back to the surface?
Answer: It's just there because It’s some fools idea of the way Bond acts, but it’s actually a forced pastiche with zero credibility.
In fact, I don’t like the whole boat chase in TWINE. Why on earth is the ‘Cigar Girl’ waiting outside MI6 with a big gun anyway?
Answer: For no other reason than to kick-off this chase sequence. How lazy and stupid of the film makers!
The assassination of Robert King could have been mysterious and exotic without this cartoon addition. If they’d wanted to do a big action sequence on the Thames, by all means do it, but they needed a much better and believable reason for it than the one on show here. Once the Q Boat starts going round corners on dry land, it’s lost me completely.

[deth]

Brosnan dipped in and out between the two (and when he straigtens his tie underwater during the Q-Boat/Sunseek chase in 'TWINE' is genius!)

That was downright risible.

Agreed. Why straighten your tie underwater anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to do it once you’ve splashed back to the surface?
Answer: It's just there because It’s some fools idea of the way Bond acts, but it’s actually a forced pastiche with zero credibility.

I actually like the tie straightening moment. Who cares if it's ridiculous? Is it any more ridiculous than a villain not just shooting Bond on sight? Is it any more ridiculous than Bond having all sorts of gadgets for *just* the right occasion? Is it any more ridiculous than the one-liners in the later Connery films and the Moore films? Nah... let's not over-think the Bond films. Fun stupid moments like that fit perfectly into those movies. (when it gets too frequent or absurdly overboard, then it's a problem). I do agree with you about the rest of the boat chase though, as that is an actual absurdity with the plot (of which TWINE has many).

However, I do not think that moment would fit in the Craig films. It is specific to the tone of the film being made.

[sharpshooter]

I actually like the tie straightening moment.

I like it as well. It doesn't hurt and I think it works for Brosnan. IMO it’s more about Bond having a joke to himself, much like how Bond sometimes mocks a defeated opponent with a quip when nobody is around to appreciate it. It’s not something that is normal, but Bond is behaving as if it is – referencing the ridiculousness of the situation himself. Straightening the tie out on the surface making more sense doesn't really come into it.

Edited by sharpshooter, 12 June 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Shrublands]

I actually like the tie straightening moment. Who cares if it's ridiculous? Is it any more ridiculous than a villain not just shooting Bond on site? Is it any more ridiculous than Bond having all sorts of gadgets for *just* the right occasion? Is it any more ridiculous than the one-liners in the later Connery films and the Moore films? Nah... let's not over-think the Bond films. Fun stupid moments like that fit perfectly into those movies. (when it gets too frequent or absurdly overboard, then it's a problem). I do agree with you about the rest of the boat chase though, as that is an actual absurdity with the plot (of which TWINE has many).

I suppose if it were in a different boat chase, or this was in a different part of the film, it may work for the reasons you say.
However, the whole motivation for the chase was already straining credibility and moments like this are just yet another step too far.

It’s like Brosnan-Bond in the back of the BMW in TND, laughing and playing with the remote, having a great time getting away from the bad guys. This could have been a good idea in another chase. But here, moments earlier, Paris was brutally tortured and murdered, now Bond is fighting to get away from the gang responsible. So Brosnan-Bond treating it like a fun game to be relished seems utterly inapropriate to me. It’s not joined-up acting, it’s not joined-up film making, and it’s not joined-up thinking.

Craig has spoiled me a bit I suppose - an intelligent actor that fits his moments into the big picture, and the film makers have largely risen to the challenge.