155 replies to this topic

[AMC Hornet]

Rather than the plot, I had in mind the concept of a Bond actor too old to be taken seriously as an action hero, a villain with more spoken back-story than menace demonstrated on the screen (e.g.: "He speaks at least five languages with no accent" - guess what, Necros spoke English with at least three accents, and German like a native, with no setup in the dialogue), a brainless bimbo screaming "James!" like a prize ninny (why does Denise Richards still suffer such flack, when Tanya Roberts was so much more unconvincing?) and a master plan straight out of Superman: The Movie and a resolution lifted from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Plus, who cares about horse racing at the Royal Ascot, especially after John Gardner had just done such a masterful job of setting up Murik as a cheater at the track, and as for the airship climax...

I could go on, but I think you get the point: AVTAK is my least favorite Bond film, and part of the reason is that it was neither relevant nor engaging at the time, and I can't see it being any more relevant at any later date (perhaps earlier? According to some posters, Connery could have made a satisfactory 007 adventure out of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang).

Oddly, despite LTK bearing a striking resemblance to the kind of narrative that Fleming produced in his lifetime (specifically LALD & TMWTGG), I still don't like it all that much either. Too nasty - too unlike the films I grew up with in the late 60s - early 70s. Perhaps the word 'Kill' in the title is the kiss of death. Give me a Bond who's having the time of his life while opposing the wrong 'uns of the world - that's what I pay - repeatedly - to see.

[SecretAgentFan]

the concept of a Bond actor too old to be taken seriously as an action hero

Actually, that is one of the great things about AVTAK. Bond growing older, keeping the British end up. As a teenager I was disappointed. Now, I think this is what sets AVTAK apart from the rest.

a villain with more spoken back-story than menace demonstrated on the screen.

I disagree. With Walken in the role I always feared him. Even back then when I was a teenager.


As for the "stolen" elements... well, to be very nerd-like I have to disagree, too. Lex Luthor did not want to flood Silicon Valley. And there is no mine car chase in AVTAK - and no Indian thuggies.

Tanya Roberts, however... yeah, she should have been better. But she fulfilled my teenage desires back then (SHEENA anyone?) and she is easy on the eyes (not on the ears, but, hey...) Also, in a story about silicon...

Boy, that was nasty. Sorry.

[Ren]

Oddly, despite LTK bearing a striking resemblance to the kind of narrative that Fleming produced in his lifetime (specifically LALD & TMWTGG), I still don't like it all that much either. Too nasty - too unlike the films I grew up with in the late 60s - early 70s. Perhaps the word 'Kill' in the title is the kiss of death. Give me a Bond who's having the time of his life while opposing the wrong 'uns of the world - that's what I pay - repeatedly - to see.

That's the irony of LTK. It's the only movie in which Bond has no licence to kill.

[iBond]

I totally agree that Dalton's last film is underrated. It is so good! Yes, there is some cheesy acting and some un-Bond like moments, but that's what makes this film stand out. It was bold for it's time and, like Robert Davi said during his Q&A on Sunday, "It was before it's time". This had all the elements of a Bond-film nonetheless, although scattered throughout the film. There is humor, and you see Dalton having a few laughs here and there. It certainly isn't the Bond film I'll show my kids (when I have them), but if they end up liking Bond, this will be included since it is indeed a Bond film. I recorded some of Robert Davi's interview on Sunday. I'll try to get it on YouTube and then post the link on here for your guys to check out.

[mrevans]

Just a quick thought on AVTAK: The Bond too old to play the part is the single biggest issue for me. IMO the movie would have been twice as good if Dalton had taken over. The darker tone near the end with Zoren slaughtering all the workers would have suited him. Not that Moore didn't do a great job but this was the point when he officailly overstayed his welcome for me. I love Walken as Zoren. He's very fun to watch. For example, after he murders Mr. Howe and lays out his plan to burn down city hall, he turns to Bond and says, "Isn't that neat!" Sutton is awful, dumbed-down and obnoxious. And the relationship between them really comes accross as Bond acting as more of a father figure so seeing them in the shower at the end just seems wrong. But I still really like this one.

But anyway about LTK: it's not the gem I used to think it was but its still up there for me. I like the tone of the movie, Dalton, Davi, the concept, the revenge plot, the action sequences and the Bond girls(at least in and of themselves). But the plot really is full of holes if I pay attention to it. These are glaring and don't feel like typing it all. Crittically think while you watch it and I think they're obvious enough. For a more realistic take on Bond, they don't bother to develop a relationship between Bond and Pam and throw them into bed the first chance they get and it comes from out of nowhere. And while Pam is pretty interesting from the time shes introduced she gets all jealous, whinny and annoying. Its all pretty eye rolling for me. I feel like love triangles are becoming too frequent in movies. It's like since the Twilight Saga made it popular every movie wants to do it. Not LTK"s fault but I think that makes it bother me more now. I'm also annoyed that bond ruined the Chinese agent's operation that he had spent years setting up. He would have made an interesting Bond ally had they joined forces.

[Panavision]

I'm also annoyed that bond ruined the Chinese agent's operation that he had spent years setting up. He would have made an interesting Bond ally had they joined forces.

Well, I like the fact that Bond is a bastarrd in this one. The whole point of Bond's revenge is that he doesn't think about the consequences of his actions. For me, it's one of the few Bonds that makes plot sense.

[tdalton]

For a more realistic take on Bond, they don't bother to develop a relationship between Bond and Pam and throw them into bed the first chance they get and it comes from out of nowhere. And while Pam is pretty interesting from the time shes introduced she gets all jealous, whinny and annoying. Its all pretty eye rolling for me. I feel like love triangles are becoming too frequent in movies. It's like since the Twilight Saga made it popular every movie wants to do it. Not LTK"s fault but I think that makes it bother me more now. I'm also annoyed that bond ruined the Chinese agent's operation that he had spent years setting up. He would have made an interesting Bond ally had they joined forces.

I don't really have a problem with the Bond/Pam dynamic. I think that, after they sleep together on the boat after going to the bar (I assume we're meant to interpret that as having happened when they go into the lower quarters of the boat), that she develops some sort of romantic attachment to him that she doesn't feel is being reciprocated over the course of the film, as Bond is single-minded in his attempt to bring down Sanchez, even going as far as to use Lupe to accomplish that goal. I think that Bond is so-single minded in his attempt to bring down Sanchez that he doesn't even see that Pam is interested in him romantically, and when he finally does get an inkling of that at the end of the film, when she runs away when she sees him with Lupe, he immediately drops that potential "relationship" to be with her. I don't really view it much as a love triangle as much as it being a case of two people who don't really see that the other is interested due to a focus on the mission.

As for ruining the Chinese operative's operation, I thought that was a great plot device. It kept Bond on a rogue status, as joining up with an official Chinese agent would have negated that. He already had Pam, an agent of the US government, but she was also working outside of her mission parameters by helping Bond attempt to kill Sanchez.

[thecasinoroyale]

(I assume we're meant to interpret that as having happened when they go into the lower quarters of the boat),

Hmm, I always thought they did the business on the actual floor of the boat as there wasn't a lower deck...proper Dalton filth, what a man!

I think that moment was sheer lust - after a heated bar fight, their decision to go after a single goal, stuck in the warm night on a boat which could be romantic itself, and simply fired up from what's happened...I defy any man who wouldn't do the same.

Bond shows a great machonistic side during the film and the way he handles the women, a good example is with Pam and Lupe in the Isthmus casino, one minute with Pam getting a martini and then seen walking out for his mission with Lupe and he doens't bat an eyelid in doing so.

Great stuff.

[tdalton]

(I assume we're meant to interpret that as having happened when they go into the lower quarters of the boat),

Hmm, I always thought they did the business on the actual floor of the boat as there wasn't a lower deck...proper Dalton filth, what a man!

I think that moment was sheer lust - after a heated bar fight, their decision to go after a single goal, stuck in the warm night on a boat which could be romantic itself, and simply fired up from what's happened...I defy any man who wouldn't do the same.

Regarding that scene, I completely agree. I think, like you said, it's simply done as a way to relieve the tension of what had just happened in the bar, plus as a means to pass the time since they've run out of gas and it's the middle of night. I do think, however, given Pam's reactions towards Bond the rest of the way, that she might have developed some form of romantic attachment to him during their encounter on the boat, given that, from that point on, she has several moments of jealousy with regards to Bond and Lupe.

[thecasinoroyale]

For sure - she is smitten with him, that's clear. Which I suppose why it's a nice little end when they have their kiss in the pool, he makes his choice. And I like the tension they have through the film, she's not all over him like other Bond girls and the way they work together a lot is really good to see - especially the tanker chase / plane scene.

(Forget the winking fish!)

Pam is an under-rated Bond girl IMO. A good 80's Bond girl.

[tdalton]

For sure - she is smitten with him, that's clear. Which I suppose why it's a nice little end when they have their kiss in the pool, he makes his choice. And I like the tension they have through the film, she's not all over him like other Bond girls and the way they work together a lot is really good to see - especially the tanker chase / plane scene.

(Forget the winking fish!)

Pam is an under-rated Bond girl IMO. A good 80's Bond girl.

I really like Pam as a Bond girl. I'd even rank her up there as one of the best with Eva Green and Claudine Auger. What I like about the character is that you get a sense that she could actually be a real person. Usually when they give us the "Bond equal", they're there simply to be tough and to try to exhibit certain characteristics of the Bond character. Pam is tough, and a competent agent, but you also get the sense that she's a real woman underneath that, in this case exhibited by her trying to compartmentalize her feelings for Bond in order to keep the mission going, rather than being a caricature that many characters in the Bond franchise, both male and female, often end up being.

[iBond]

I honestly loved this film. It really stood out from the rest of the films and I find it to be far more hardcore than Casino Royale. But then again, Casino Royale was highly praised because this is the day and age where violence is the key factor. Licence to Kill came before its time.

[AMC Hornet]

Curious, how an appreciation of what Daniel Craig is doing now inspires so much belated appreciation for what Timothy Dalton and George Lazenby did in their day.

It's almost like...they were James Bond too!

[PPK_19]

Watched this the other week during my James Bond marathon.

Great film, towering performance by Dalton, fantastic villains in Del Toro and Davi. "Nobody is talking to you gringo...." just check out the evil grin on Dario!

Sanchez is exceptionally charming and emotionally charged as the big bad: "That's right amigo, it's mine!" (im almost rooting for him, and that NEVER happens!). Then i remember what he did to Felix and Della....

The climax is exciting, the Bond girls are beautiful and the story is simple: get revenge or die trying. The comparisons to Miami Vice etc are tiresome. This is James Bond, at his Fleming best! Dalton and Craig are kindred spirits.

[seawolfnyy]

Licence to Kill is one of the best. The only things I don't like are Talisa Soto and Caroline Bliss. Soto never impresses and Bliss is just plain terrible. Other than that it is definitely one of the better films. Also, they should have left the original title. Licence Revoked makes more sense than Licence to Kill.

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

One of the worst Bond films ever made, and waste of both Daltons talents and Flemingian elements.

Edited by AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän, 24 September 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[SecretAgentFan]

Pretty harsh words... but fair enough. Even if I absolutely disagree.

[AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän]

I do not "hate" LTK, just find it underwhelming after brilliant TLD. Only Bond I positively loathe is DAD. There are lots of things to like in LTK, but just as well things to dislike.

[john.steed]

I do not hate LTK and I watch it about as often as I watch all but my very favorite Bond films. It is not one of my favorites because I prefer the less "gritty" Bond films. My principle complaint with the film is with its violence. I saw it with my girlfriend at the time when it first came out and she felt sick because of t he violence. A few years later, I was going out with a different woman ( she is now my wife) and we watched a number of Bond films and she enjoyed them all. However, I had not learned my lesson and we tried watching LTK. She also felt sick because of the violence. So, my button line is that I enjoyed the film my self, though it was not one of my favorites. However, I do feel that they should not have made such a major departure from the types of violence that was shown in earlier films

[Iceskater101]

I really liked this movie. I think it is my favorite Timothy Dalton movie out of the two. I agree that this movie is definitely different than the other bonds, and maybe a little more violent. So at the time it probably was really weird. I like it though because it shows that James Bond is human and that he will go and kill anyone who hurt his friend like that. I do agree with the fact that Dario isn't in the movie enought. He just looks like a really good Bond villain and they definitely could have use him more instead of just having him in two scenes, one including his death scene. Overall though I really like this James Bond movie. I like it better than The Living Daylights, but that's just my opinion.

[IcedCamaro]

I am a girl and I didn't feel sick when I first watched LTK... wonder what that says about me? Sure, there are a couple of rather gruesome deaths and I did flinch (case in point, the pressure tank scene and the shredder), but the rest of the film was so enjoyable I really didn't care. Not a dull moment in this film, at least not for me.

[Lucky]

LTK is one of my favorites, probably in my top 4 with Goldeneye, Casino Royale and From Russia with Love being above it. I just love the tone to this film, and how it explorers the darker and more vengeful aspects of Bond's character. I think this is him at his most coldly calculating, and I love how he turns Sanchez against all his men.

[David_M]

I never really warmed to this film, even though intellectually I understood and approved of the attempt to move away from formula (the move back to it in the Brosnan years, IMHO, was a let-down, not because I dislike the formula but because they'd run out of ways to make it interesting a good while earlier).

I'm not a big fan of "gritty violence," but that's not my main objection to LTK. I just find it highly derivative of action films that are, to my mind, inferior by nature to Bond, and that is the "grizzled cop out to avenge his partner" genre. LTK to me feels like a Steven Segal movie (down to the title) or a two-hour "Miami Vice" only without the attractive clothes and decent music.

A big problem here is that the audience is supposed to believe Bond would lose his objectivity and composure over Felix and Della's fate when, for all intents and purposes, they are complete strangers to the viewer. The Fleming readers in the audience understand the connection between Felix and Bond but really, how many of us are there? For most of his screen career, Bond is a lone shark, not half of a team, and when Felix does occasionally show up in the movies, it's usually to clean up after Bond, hand him a clue or tut-tut his peccadillos. Movie Felix is, in essence, a cypher, at best a third-stringer on "Team Bond" behind the likes of Q and Moneypenny and at worst a wet blanket, by-the-numbers "company man" who serves as a comic foil and a reminder of how cool government agents usually aren't. Plus he's played by a string of different actors, which makes it hard to form an attachment to him. Half the audience for LTK was probably too young to know -- or care -- that David Hedison was the first repeat player in the role since his first turn happened all the way back in LALD.

Which is to say, it's awfully hard to believe what happened to Felix would drive Bond to such extremes, especially given the far worse fates dealt out to other helpers over the years, not to mention Tracy, none of which caused 007 to lose it like he does here. And if you can't buy that central premise, nothing else really works.

If you CAN get past that, yes it is fun to watch how much damage a one-man wrecking crew like Bond can do when he puts his mind to it. But it's still a visually dreary film to me, and for all my trouble, the pay-off is an ending where Felix calls to say, "Feeling much better now, thanks! And M says all is forgiven!" Which makes the whole exercise seem totally pointless (if Felix doesn't care about his leg and Della, then why does Bond?). Sometimes I like to think M just said "you can have your job back" to lure Bond back to the office, where he could face charges for getting the other agents murdered.

[Iceskater101]

I am a girl and I didn't feel sick when I first watched LTK... wonder what that says about me? Sure, there are a couple of rather gruesome deaths and I did flinch (case in point, the pressure tank scene and the shredder), but the rest of the film was so enjoyable I really didn't care. Not a dull moment in this film, at least not for me.

Yeah same with me. I mean I guess for this time, this movie was really gruesome, but come on. Compared to movies now? Please this is nothing. I do cringe when he is cut up by the shredder because that looks like it hurt a lot....

[Trevelyan 006]

I am a girl and I didn't feel sick when I first watched LTK... wonder what that says about me? Sure, there are a couple of rather gruesome deaths and I did flinch (case in point, the pressure tank scene and the shredder), but the rest of the film was so enjoyable I really didn't care. Not a dull moment in this film, at least not for me.

Yeah same with me. I mean I guess for this time, this movie was really gruesome, but come on. Compared to movies now? Please this is nothing. I do cringe when he is cut up by the shredder because that looks like it hurt a lot....

I'd say the head explosion, clunking sound and distorted/ballooned face of Krest in the pressure tank scene beat out the Shredder scene for me, as far as that goes...

Davi and Del Toro made an excellent (and frankly underrated "dastardly duo") as far as I'm concerned and those two, along with Dalton, are reason alone to enjoy the film.

But, what do I know, I'm more of a TLD fan myself!

[GrinderAK]

To me it seems like just a run of the mill 80's drug movie, in that respect it isn't a bad movie, just nothing as special as some of the better Bond movies. At some points it seems like a 2 hour episode of Miami Vice.

[Vauxhall]

It's also one of my favourites, but is anyone aware of why they opted to make such a big change in tone between THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS and LICENCE TO KILL? Dalton's first effort was fairly classic 70s/80s Bond, and worked pretty well. Was there a feeling that BOND 16 (as it was then) had to reflect the wider cinema action fare of the 1980s?

[PPK_19]

It's also one of my favourites, but is anyone aware of why they opted to make such a big change in tone between THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS and LICENCE TO KILL? Dalton's first effort was fairly classic 70s/80s Bond, and worked pretty well. Was there a feeling that BOND 16 (as it was then) had to reflect the wider cinema action fare of the 1980s?

Definitely. When you look at the other films that came out around the same time- i'm going to use Lethal Weapon 1+2 as an example here- the theme seemed to be 'drug smuggling'. Both films were set in America, involved drugs in some way (well, not so much Lethal Weapon 2...) and LTK came out two years after the first Lethal Weapon.

And the very fact that Michael Kamen- who did the score for LW1+2- was drafted in for LTK, says it all really. They were definitely aiming for a certain 'feel' or 'atmosphere' for LTK, to match the other blockbusters out at the time. Which is why it draws so many comparisons to Miami Vice etc.

Edited by PPK_19, 15 October 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[Gothamite]

People vaguely accuse LTK of being overly violent and "dark". It is unquestionably violent, but it certainly isn't dark. It's loaded with broad, cheesy humor, schlocky eighties action tropes, and moments that can only be described as cartoonish. There's the Saturday morning anti-drug fantasy, the hastily invented black best friend, the "I told you this was a mistake!" in-law, the swordfish-as-weapon, the perfectly circular hole made by a shotgun, the sniveling yuppie, the goofy televangelist, Q in a silly costume, the cartoonish X-ray snapshot, Asians who turn out to be kung fu masters... The characters and the tone of the film are just as silly as anything from the Moore era. It's just that the deaths are gorier, and Bond himself is a glaring, high-strung sourpuss.

The fundamental change in tone didn't come until Brosnan. That's when everything went from lighthearted to gloomily self-serious.

Yes. While I love LTK dearly, it's nowhere near as serious as it's trying to be. I'd honestly include Dalton's performance as Bond within that criticism. He just doesn't possess the same world-weary, subtle menace he had in TLD. In this film he just seems to be screaming "Look at how daaaarrk and menacing I am!!!". It's a 12-year old's idea of what a gritty film is.

In saying that though, it's a really interesting, entertaining film that contains without a doubt some of the best uses of the actual source material (at least since OHMSS). It's more entertaining than its predecessor, and its story flows better than TLD's as well, but TLD is just generally a better film that ironically makes better use of Timothy Dalton (even though LTK was the only one of the two to actually be written with Dalton in mind).

I'd happily place LTK over most of the John Glen era, it just is a bit too farcical when it's trying to be the exact opposite. Everyone tries to imagine what Dalton would have been like in GoldenEye, and yes that would have been interesting, but for my money, I would have just liked to see him in a 1991 Bond film, rather than waiting 6 years for a soft-relaunch of the series.

[thecasinoroyale]

Watching the 'Everything Or Nothing' documentary, the passion for taking Bond to his roots of Fleming-esque nature, in what he calls a cold-hearted, brutal assassin, was so nice to see. Dalton knew the Fleming character and did it so well, not without sly humour of course, but following Roger Moore after 12 years, no-one could have made ALL the fans comfortable in just 2 films after coming in from the warm, comedic and witty protrayal from Moore, which was brilliant of course. Dalton didn't get the chance sadly to show just what he could have done in the big shoes he had to fill and re-shape.

And the fact he was robbed of his 3rd film, once again by the fat-cats in the studio was so sad to hear, and to see how ready he was with production underway on his latest film which never got made.

Daniel Craig, 20 years before his time.

And one of the best gunbarrel walkers in the series.