44 replies to this topic

[Guy Haines]

You don't cast an actress of Dame Judi Dench's calibre, profile and skill and just use her on one scene.

She was one of the world's best actors in 1995. She just wasn't that well known to the wider cinema audiences.

No argument that she was one of the world's best actresses; she was Dame Judi before Bond. I don't however think it was a coincidence that in every 007 film since winning the Oscar she has been featured more and more. I think on TND and GE she was still being used like Lee/Brown, appearing briefly in bookend exposition scenes as more or less a cameo. TWINE and afterwards she felt more integral to the plot, in my opinion.

In the UK, the reaction amongst the critics and others when she was cast was a mix of "what an inspired move" and "why is she lowering her standards by appearing in Bond?". To some over here, it was almost as if she had signed to do a season in pantomime in the provinces after a season doing Shakespeare at The Globe, yet it was an inspired career move.

I find the apparent hostility towards M doing more than giving Bond his orders and sending him on his way a bit puzzling. True, as I've mentioned above, having M on hand to explain things helps from time to time in between the "crash, bang ,wallop" stuff, but that is a fault of the scripts rather than a ploy to expand M's role. But it isn't as if M was a mere cameo character in the Bond books. In some of them - Moonraker, for example - he appears in several chapters.

[JimmyBond]

I don't even think we had the internet before Goldeneye came out, so going into the film I had no idea they had replaced the MI6 staff. For all I knew Robert Brown and Caroline Bliss were still in the film, lol. So when Bond went to MI6 and ran into the new M and Moneypenny I don't think I thought too much about it, I just went along with it.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I think you guys are forgetting that when GE came out Dench wasn't the huge star of cinema she is now. She was very well known for her theatre work but I think she'd not really done much leading film work (according to the Making of GoldenEye from 1995 she claimed to not watch herself in the films she performed in!) and was well known in the UK for a BBC tv show called As Time Goes By, co-starring Admiral Roebuck himself, Geoffrey Palmer. I remember when GE came out I thought that with Sean Bean in it (best known I think as Sharpe from the UK TV series), Robbie Coltrane (TV's Cracker at the time) and Dench (even Alan Cumming from BBC's The High Life), it added an unfortunate amount of "UK middle aged TVness" to GE, small screen in feeling with not much appeal for a young, international audience. Of course, all three of those (and Cumming just as much) are very well known to American and international audiences now, but at the time I don't think anyone really had the vision to see that happening so quickly as it did.

Very quickly, Dench became an Oscar nominee and then winner in 1999, which I think would only naturally inspire the makers to increase her involvement with TWINE. I think unexpectedly she became the biggest star in these movies, but I don't think that was the gameplan since her arrival. GE and TND I think were very much just obligatory exposition scenes, GE perhaps containing a bit more of an introduction for her.

Great post. I totally agree with you about Judi Dench. She may have been well known in Great Britain but over here in America she was virtually unknown. It was the Bond films that got her noticed over here and made her the star she was (thanks in no small part to her briefing scene with Pierce Brosnan in GoldenEye when she called him a "sexist, mysoginist, dinosaur." Everyone laughed and enjoyed that scene and she was on her way. Good quips with Moneypenny and Roebuck in Tomorrow Never Dies further added to her popularity and then came her Oscar nominations and she was suddenly everyone's favorite older British actress.)

As for when Miles Messervy was replaced by Barbara Mawdsley, I think the reception was fairly mixed although most people had open minds about it. I personally didn't like the switch as I wanted Messervy to remain in charge. Since GoldenEye, I have enjoyed Dench's M and thought she has done a good job. However, I would still prefer Messervy as Bond's boss so when Dench leaves the role, I would welcome a switch back to a male M.

Oh and as for the "TV Brits" filling up the acting slots in GoldenEye, being an American, it didn't bother me as the only one I had seen before was Sean Bean courtesy of his great turn as the vengeful IRA terrorist in Patriot Games. As a result, I was pleased to see him in GoldenEye.

[Sharpe]

I'm sick of judi dench M - would like the male one back. There was a different, and nicer, interplay between the old M and bond. This one brings in the whole sexism thing and focuses on that too much.

Also don't like M's increasing role - but perhaps that's less to do with Judi Dench and more to do with changing technology; back in the 60s-80s, bond didn't have an easy way to report back to HQ. Now with so many mobile devices, bond always has a direct line.

BUT I don't like it - Bond seemed to be more his own boss and able to exercise much of his own judgement to get the job done in the older movies.

[elizabeth]

I'm sick of judi dench M - would like the male one back. There was a different, and nicer, interplay between the old M and bond. This one brings in the whole sexism thing and focuses on that too much.

Also don't like M's increasing role - but perhaps that's less to do with Judi Dench and more to do with changing technology; back in the 60s-80s, bond didn't have an easy way to report back to HQ. Now with so many mobile devices, bond always has a direct line.

BUT I don't like it - Bond seemed to be more his own boss and able to exercise much of his own judgement to get the job done in the older movies.

I agree with you. M was male in the books, he should've stayed that way. Hell, they kept him like that for 2 decades, what the hell went wrong?

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

I'm sick of judi dench M - would like the male one back. There was a different, and nicer, interplay between the old M and bond. This one brings in the whole sexism thing and focuses on that too much.

Also don't like M's increasing role - but perhaps that's less to do with Judi Dench and more to do with changing technology; back in the 60s-80s, bond didn't have an easy way to report back to HQ. Now with so many mobile devices, bond always has a direct line.

BUT I don't like it - Bond seemed to be more his own boss and able to exercise much of his own judgement to get the job done in the older movies.

I agree with you. M was male in the books, he should've stayed that way. Hell, they kept him like that for 2 decades, what the hell went wrong?

Fair enough, but consider that when GE was being filmed the relevancy and continuation of the series was very much under the microscope. I can only speak for the UK situation where a female M was a big part of the GE campaign and making Bond relevant again. You could argue Dench as M helped restore the series at a very crucial time.

[DR76]

I had no problem with Judi Dench in the role of M. She has done a great job for the past decade-in-a-half. Nor do I think it matters if Bond has to report to a male M or a female M. Why is it that some people cannot deal with the idea of an action hero having a woman for a boss, is a mystery to me. Or perhaps they're just bigoted.

[The Shark]

I had no problem with Judi Dench in the role of M. She has done a great job for the past decade-in-a-half. Nor do I think it matters if Bond has to report to a male M or a female M. Why is it that some people cannot deal with the idea of an action hero having a woman for a boss, is a mystery to me. Or perhaps they're just bigoted.

It's not that people can't stand having the idea of an action hero having a female boss (Dench was perfectly fine in Goldeneye). They just don't like it when screeplays are partially written to exploit the character's gender, using it to provide a personal, soap-opera like impetus into the story. i.e. M flying over to Elektra, only to be ambushed and kidnapped by her. That's almost sexist, and subversively continues in furthering the notion that women are irrational beings, driven by their motherly instincts.

[Messervy]

(coming a bit late on the matter, sorry!)

I think it was a very good idea to have a female M. Irrespective of whether it was a good film or not, GE was about new Bond, new world, new rules. So a female M was relevant (given the fact that at that time we had a female head of SS). From this starting point, I grew to very much like Dench-M. Not because she is a woman, but because she is a terrific actress. In all honesty, I think she played way better than Brosnan in those films. So I really liked having her as M, period.

To me, the gender per se is not an issue: the issue is whether or not the actor/actress playing M is good. And I must say that Dame Judi Dench really does deliver great performance opposite Craig.

The only problem I've had is that she travels too much: starting with TND (what the hell is this nonsense briefing in a car?!), M is always on the move. That, to me, is the real issue. M has to be in his/her office, issuing orders, gently putting Bond in his place, etc. Bond is supposed to travel the world to save the day, not M. M is the boss, monitoring things from a distance. I mean, does M really need to be in South Corea with field operatives (DAD), in Instambul meeting Elektra (TWINE) or in the Bahamas telling Bond where his next stop is (CR)?

So, whether the next M is male or female, I would apreciate him/her to be M and not some traveling salesperson ...

[dogmanstar]

Yes, but that's not Dame Judi's M alone--Robert Brown on the airplane for the office gag in TLD; and Hemingway's house in LTK; Bernard Lee goes to Venice, to Bond's flat, to pick up Bond and triple X at the end of TSWLM. The traveling M circus has been going on for a long time.

To the original question: I remember a female M being marketed in the States as an answer to "Do we really need Bond anymore?" The Cold War is over, the franchise is rusty, there's been a huge gap in films, Bond is a misogynist, etc, etc, etc. M's appearance as a woman signaled that the film makers knew this was a new day or to paraphrase some old advertising--"This is not your father's James Bond."

[Guy Haines]

(coming a bit late on the matter, sorry!)

I think it was a very good idea to have a female M. Irrespective of whether it was a good film or not, GE was about new Bond, new world, new rules. So a female M was relevant (given the fact that at that time we had a female head of SS). From this starting point, I grew to very much like Dench-M. Not because she is a woman, but because she is a terrific actress. In all honesty, I think she played way better than Brosnan in those films. So I really liked having her as M, period.

To me, the gender per se is not an issue: the issue is whether or not the actor/actress playing M is good. And I must say that Dame Judi Dench really does deliver great performance opposite Craig.

The only problem I've had is that she travels too much: starting with TND (what the hell is this nonsense briefing in a car?!), M is always on the move. That, to me, is the real issue. M has to be in his/her office, issuing orders, gently putting Bond in his place, etc. Bond is supposed to travel the world to save the day, not M. M is the boss, monitoring things from a distance. I mean, does M really need to be in South Corea with field operatives (DAD), in Instambul meeting Elektra (TWINE) or in the Bahamas telling Bond where his next stop is (CR)?

So, whether the next M is male or female, I would apreciate him/her to be M and not some traveling salesperson ...

In an age of mobile phones, web cams, Ipads and the like, there's no reason at all for M to move abroad, or even beyond his/her office. Yet he/she has been doing it since Bernard Lee and his "M1" submarine in YOLT. If it is relevant to the storyline, then I have no problem. If it is because M has to pop up every so often to remind us - and Bond - what the assorted mayhem on screen is all about, then the screenwriters ought to go back and think again.

Edited by Guy Haines, 29 July 2010 - 04:05 PM.

[Messervy]

Yes, I get your & dogmanstar's point about M moving around.
It's just that since TND, M's been doing it all the time, whereas with the previous one(s), it's been only from time to time, either to bring some personal touch (M's own house in OHMSS, for obvious reasons) or to relate to the story itself (submarine in YOLT, because Bond's "corpse" was thrown at sea).
I mean, since TND, we've more often seen M outside her office than inside, and I don't think it really sustains the plot. M's the boss, and Intelligence Services bosses work mainly in their offices when they're not on official representation duty (either at Parliament or with foreign counterparts). They do not take active part in operational duties, or only very seldom. They never meet an operational undercover agent on duty station.

I know it's a bit off-topic; we probably might want to start a new one.
But, hey, given my name, I couldn't just let it rest ...

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

Yes, I get your & dogmanstar's point about M moving around.
It's just that since TND, M's been doing it all the time, whereas with the previous one(s), it's been only from time to time, either to bring some personal touch (M's own house in OHMSS, for obvious reasons) or to relate to the story itself (submarine in YOLT, because Bond's "corpse" was thrown at sea).

I think it feels more obvious that M was moving around post TND because of how the film makers approached those scenes, when really it's all been done before, but just in more subleter way that's tailored to the respective story. M crops up in cars in OCTOPUSSY (The German Border), and AVTAK (Paris). He is out & about in MOONRAKER (Venice and the Monastery), SPY (Egypt), MWTGG (Queen Elizabeth wreckage), TLD (In a Plane for the PTS) and LTK (at Hemingway House).

[DR76]

I really get tired of these complaints about Judi Dench's M being in places other than London. Bernard Lee started all of that in "YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE". And he has popped up in some interesting places between 1967 and 1979. Robert Brown appeared in East Germany, at the Royal Ascot, Paris, Gilbraltar, Vienna, and Key West during his tenure as M.

To accuse Dench's M of popping up outside of the MI-6 office, while ignoring that the other two Ms did the same strikes me as rather hypocritical.

[Messervy]

I really get tired of these complaints about Judi Dench's M being in places other than London. Bernard Lee started all of that in "YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE". And he has popped up in some interesting places between 1967 and 1979. Robert Brown appeared in East Germany, at the Royal Ascot, Paris, Gilbraltar, Vienna, and Key West during his tenure as M.

To accuse Dench's M of popping up outside of the MI-6 office, while ignoring that the other two Ms did the same strikes me as rather hypocritical.

This point is irrelevant: the mere fact that previous Ms did travel does not mean that this is a good thing per se.
Besides, I never said M should never travel; I said M's been moving around too much lately.