44 replies to this topic

[DamnCoffee]

Being only 5 years old when Judi Dench was cast as M in GoldenEye, I missed out on the feelings that surrounded such a ground-breaking move. How did the public, and indeed older members of CBn, respond to this change? Did you welcome the idea of there being a female M, or oppose it? How are you feeling now on the subject? Are you fine with M being a woman, or would you prefer the return of a male M?

[zencat]

I thought it was great idea.

Little tired of it now. Almost feels like M/Dench is now a co-star of these movies.

[terminus]

An odd thing to say, zencat - would you have said the same about Bernard Lee or Robert Brown, or indeed Lois Maxwell or Desmond Llewelyn?

[The Shark]

An odd thing to say, zencat - would you have said the same about Bernard Lee or Robert Brown, or indeed Lois Maxwell or Desmond Llewelyn?

In my opinion, no. They were always side players who there for one or two briefing scenes, and were never seen until perhaps the end of the film (if that).

[Royal Dalton]

I thought it was a bad idea at the time, and I still do.

If they had to have a new M back then, I would have liked to have seen George Baker in the role.

[zencat]

An odd thing to say, zencat - would you have said the same about Bernard Lee or Robert Brown, or indeed Lois Maxwell or Desmond Llewelyn?

No. But they had one scene per film, maybe a minute of screen time. Dench has several scenes that run throughout the films. She has been integrated into the plot-lines. Every trailer now features her. Even the Blood Stone trailer features her voice over. And she is all over the press when a new Bond is released. This was never the case with those other stars/characters.

Am I really the only one that can see this?

[DamnCoffee]

No, you're not the only one.

I really think that it can't be helped though. Dench is such a famous actress, and I think I'm right in thinking that her contract states that she must have so much screen-time in a Bond movie. Plus, I think that she's the easiest way of explaining the story-line to the audience. I know it's lazy, but it's true. She tells Bond what's going on anyway, so she might as well tell the audience, as well.

[terminus]

I see what you're saying. I guess it's down to the sort of actors that we're talking about, though. Bernard Lee is a great actor, but he doesn't have the draw for a big film to be made on his bankability alone - whereas Judi Dench does. There are obviously fans who will go and see a movie purely because Dench is in it - and this has probably influenced how much screentime she's been given across the past six films. I doubt the same would have happened were another, lesser known, actress to have been selected for the role.

[The Shark]

Plus, I think that she's the easiest way of explaining the story-line to the audience. I know it's lazy, but it's true. She tells Bond what's going on anyway, so she might as well tell the audience, as well.

You know what they say. Show rather than tell.

There's been far too much listless exposition in CASINO ROYALE and QUANTUM OF SOLACE.

[OmarB]

I didn't mind at all, Sir Miles retired and Barbra stepped in. I don't remember if I read the Benson first or saw the movie first, but it was never an issue for me.

[zencat]

I don't think it's contractual. I think they just love Judi Dench and ask the writers to use her as much as they can. But I think it's been overdone. I swear M had more screen time in QOS than the Bond Girl. And her scenes are all pretty much the same note. I also think her box-office draw is overstated. Now, I think this might be a sacrilegious thing to say to Eon and I'm sure everyone trembles around the topic, but it's something that needs to be said. Let's give M/Dench on great setup scene with M and then OUT. Let James Bond go out and be James Bond without a scolding from mommy every 20 minutes. It's gotten OLD. (And this is coming from a Dench/M fan.)

[ChristopherZ22]

Being only 5 years old when Judi Dench was cast as M in GoldenEye, I missed out on the feelings that surrounded such a ground-breaking move. How did the public, and indeed older members of CBn, respond to this change? Did you welcome the idea of there being a female M, or oppose it? How are you feeling now on the subject? Are you fine with M being a woman, or would you prefer the return of a male M?

The 1990s was a period of feminism, which is why they cast a woman as M for GoldenEye. Judi Dench is great in the role, but the 1990s and the feminism of the time are long gone. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to the public if they put a male in the role again.

I was 20 when GoldenEye came out, and had seen every Bond film except OHMSS. At the time I liked the idea of a woman as M because it was something new and different. Now I'm ready to see a male play the part again.

[terminus]

You're right that the nineties was an era of feminism, but I think that the decision to have a female M was much more influenced by the fact that Stella Rimington was the Head of MI5 from 1992 to 1996.

I remember reading somewhere that Lois Maxwell suggested that the new M should be female (before the decision was made) and that the role ought to be played by her.

[zencat]

I don't think it was so much a nod to feminism as it was just a way to make it modern. Stella Rimington made it viable, and GE was so much about the relevance of 007 -- the "old" James Bond getting slammed with new world changes -- that a new female M worked beautifully.

[Aris007]

I'm with Zen. A female M was a big step and I think a great idea.

The fact that M has more screen-time now than ever before is a very good thing. She's not a side-role anymore. We see her think, getting emotional, being in danger. It's much better than saying a line or two and then dissapear. Her role though went bigger in Craig's era rather in Brosnan's one, in my opinion.

[TheREAL008]

Was a great idea at the time because it worked. Today however I think a female M has overstayed her welcome. I never bought the story of Sir Miles retiring as it goes against cannon (kind of).

I love Dame Judi, she's a fantastic performer, but after DAD it was time to let go.

[The Shark]

I'm with Zen. A female M was a big step and I think a great idea.

The fact that M has more screen-time now than ever before is a very good thing. She's not a side-role anymore. We see her think, getting emotional, being in danger.

Yes. More "peeling back the layers™."

It betrays a dangerous misunderstanding of the role of M in Bond's world.

[Harmsway]

In concept, a female M is a fine idea. I've been less than impressed with the execution, though, and Dench's M has become quite tedious.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

M being a woman was a massive promotional aspect to GE here in the UK. The media loved it and made much of it. I'm sure it helped sell GE in a big way.
One of the preview clips was M's office scene and the 'sexist mysogynist dinosaur' line.
There was much made of Desmond Llewellyn's return of Q as well, if I remember.
You can see some public reaction to GE and M being a woman here.

[Bryce (003)]

I think Lois Maxwell once said in an interview that she played Moneypenny in 14 films over 23 years with just a bit under 12 minutes of screen time. Bernard Lee probably would have said the same.

Judi Dench's M has been a bit over used though. Yes, M should be there at the beginning, maybe a bit in the middle and certainly for a punch line at the end if needed. Less is more. I do love her in the role though.

[Mr. Blofeld]

If you remember, she only got two scenes in GoldenEye, and three in Tomorrow Never Dies; pumping up Dench's screentime only really started with The World is Not Enough, in 1999.

I think she hasn't gotten more since then, though; the last Bond film with a lot of Dench in it was Die Another Day -- Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace didn't have so many Dench scenes as just making a few Dench scenes very, very long...

[Guy Haines]

I've never had a problem with Dame Judi as M. It is all about casting the right person for the part (the role of M was, I think, written with a male M in mind in GoldenEye, yet Judi Dench was available and everyone considered it a masterstroke to cast her instead - I don't think there was a "feminist" agenda there at all.)

I'd like to see a male actor cast as M again, and I've made one or two suggestions as to who on this site in the past.

Concerning M's appearance as the character who "tells the audience what's going on" - is it down to some deal about screen time? Or is it a flaw in the way adventure films in general are made these days? I think the problem with too many films of that genre currently is that they don't give the audience enough time to "breathe" - to take in what's going on and why. Look at the classic Bonds of the 1960s. How much "action" did they actually feature? Not as much as the typical adventure movie of today, I would argue, and yet they are regarded as the films that set the standard, not only for future Bonds but for action/adventure movies generally.

Can anything be done about it? I wonder. We live in an age of limited attention span, instant gratification, audience interaction via films that become computer games and vice versa. Unless there is some change of direction in the way action/adventure films are made, I suspect whoever succeeds Judi Dench as M will have at least as much screen time, explaining to Bond what just happened and what will happen next.

And I add these comments as someone who rates Casino Royale very highly indeed. But consider one reason why it had such a lengthy running time. Compromise between wanting to bring Fleming's first novel to the screen fairly faithfully, and keeping the all action addicts at the multiplexes happy.

[Royal Dalton]

It's just down to bad scripting.

[bondrules]

I think Lois Maxwell once said in an interview that she played Moneypenny in 14 films over 23 years with just a bit under 12 minutes of screen time. Bernard Lee probably would have said the same.

Judi Dench's M has been a bit over used though. Yes, M should be there at the beginning, maybe a bit in the middle and certainly for a punch line at the end if needed. Less is more. I do love her in the role though.

Indeed. They have been too evident showing how how excited they are to have her play that character by giving here so much screentime. I think it was a good idea to feature a female M in Goldeneye, to show things were different after the end of the Cold War. Maybe they could have kept Dench for 2 (even 3) films tops. The fact she's stayed so long is really overkill.

[zerominus]

When I first saw the name of this thread, I thought it said 'My change of gender' and pondered whether Caroline Cossey had signed up to chat with us at CBn.

[tim partridge]

I think you guys are forgetting that when GE came out Dench wasn't the huge star of cinema she is now. She was very well known for her theatre work but I think she'd not really done much leading film work (according to the Making of GoldenEye from 1995 she claimed to not watch herself in the films she performed in!) and was well known in the UK for a BBC tv show called As Time Goes By, co-starring Admiral Roebuck himself, Geoffrey Palmer. I remember when GE came out I thought that with Sean Bean in it (best known I think as Sharpe from the UK TV series), Robbie Coltrane (TV's Cracker at the time) and Dench (even Alan Cumming from BBC's The High Life), it added an unfortunate amount of "UK middle aged TVness" to GE, small screen in feeling with not much appeal for a young, international audience. Of course, all three of those (and Cumming just as much) are very well known to American and international audiences now, but at the time I don't think anyone really had the vision to see that happening so quickly as it did.

Very quickly, Dench became an Oscar nominee and then winner in 1999, which I think would only naturally inspire the makers to increase her involvement with TWINE. I think unexpectedly she became the biggest star in these movies, but I don't think that was the gameplan since her arrival. GE and TND I think were very much just obligatory exposition scenes, GE perhaps containing a bit more of an introduction for her.

[Mr_Wint]

I thought it was a terrible idea back then and still think it is. I am looking forward to her departure more than anything else.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

I think you guys are forgetting that when GE came out Dench wasn't the huge star of cinema she is now. She was very well known for her theatre work but I think she'd not really done much leading film work (according to the Making of GoldenEye from 1995 she claimed to not watch herself in the films she performed in!) and was well known in the UK for a BBC tv show called As Time Goes By, co-starring Admiral Roebuck himself, Geoffrey Palmer. I remember when GE came out I thought that with Sean Bean in it (best known I think as Sharpe from the UK TV series), Robbie Coltrane (TV's Cracker at the time) and Dench (even Alan Cumming from BBC's The High Life), it added an unfortunate amount of "UK middle aged TVness" to GE, small screen in feeling with not much appeal for a young, international audience. Of course, all three of those (and Cumming just as much) are very well known to American and international audiences now, but at the time I don't think anyone really had the vision to see that happening so quickly as it did.

Very quickly, Dench became an Oscar nominee and then winner in 1999, which I think would only naturally inspire the makers to increase her involvement with TWINE. I think unexpectedly she became the biggest star in these movies, but I don't think that was the gameplan since her arrival. GE and TND I think were very much just obligatory exposition scenes, GE perhaps containing a bit more of an introduction for her.

Very good post here. It's easy to forget how it all happened for Dench post 1995 and how history can be easily re-written. GE gave her a lot of exposure, as M being a woman was a big deal (at the time) particularly in terms of change of direction for the series and for publicity. This, together with some excellent film roles (Mrs Brown and Shakespeare in Love), saw Dench became a sought after movie actor. I still think the M character was badly handled in TWINE, even though it was entirely legitimate that the film makers would want to use more of Dench as M.

I was thinking about the casting of GE recently and, notwithstanding the other international cast members, I agree about the UK middle aged TVness you speak of. I think this gave GE a British feel to it, especially in comparison to LTK which had a largely American cast. This TV Britishness could have worked against the film, but maybe it says something about the power of the Bond character because in the end it all worked and the whole world became seduced with 007 again.

[Zorin Industries]

You don't cast an actress of Dame Judi Dench's calibre, profile and skill and just use her on one scene. I do get that the M motif is maybe over-done in the new films, but if you have the best actress in the world playing a part in your film you are going to make sure she is in a few more scenes, on the trailer and subsequent video games.

It is also not just Dench's involvement that ensures a wider role for M, but the change in exposition for things like Bond so M's role is as much about story information for films whose main character is somewhat passive narrative wise.

I think you guys are forgetting that when GE came out Dench wasn't the huge star of cinema she is now. She was very well known for her theatre work but I think she'd not really done much leading film work (according to the Making of GoldenEye from 1995 she claimed to not watch herself in the films she performed in!) and was well known in the UK for a BBC tv show called As Time Goes By, co-starring Admiral Roebuck himself, Geoffrey Palmer. I remember when GE came out I thought that with Sean Bean in it (best known I think as Sharpe from the UK TV series), Robbie Coltrane (TV's Cracker at the time) and Dench (even Alan Cumming from BBC's The High Life), it added an unfortunate amount of "UK middle aged TVness" to GE, small screen in feeling with not much appeal for a young, international audience. Of course, all three of those (and Cumming just as much) are very well known to American and international audiences now, but at the time I don't think anyone really had the vision to see that happening so quickly as it did.

She was one of the world's best actors in 1995. She just wasn't that well known to the wider cinema audiences.

Interesting points about the cast of GOLDENEYE. I thought the whole of the film felt incredibly television.

I don't think it was so much a nod to feminism as it was just a way to make it modern. Stella Rimington made it viable, and GE was so much about the relevance of 007 -- the "old" James Bond getting slammed with new world changes -- that a new female M worked beautifully.

And Barbara Broccoli wanted Dench for the part.

[tim partridge]

You don't cast an actress of Dame Judi Dench's calibre, profile and skill and just use her on one scene.

She was one of the world's best actors in 1995. She just wasn't that well known to the wider cinema audiences.

No argument that she was one of the world's best actresses; she was Dame Judi before Bond. I don't however think it was a coincidence that in every 007 film since winning the Oscar she has been featured more and more. I think on TND and GE she was still being used like Lee/Brown, appearing briefly in bookend exposition scenes as more or less a cameo. TWINE and afterwards she felt more integral to the plot, in my opinion.