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Timothy Dalton wanted to be Fleming's Bond


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#61 jaguar007

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 04:17 AM

Dalton´s Bond certainly is not this description.


He was in TLD. I will agree quite less so in LTK, but I think he was great in his debut film and was not "angry and gritted his teeth"

#62 Dell Deaton

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 12:21 PM

I never liked very much this idea that was constantly imposed on me that Dalton was the most "Fleming-esque" of the Bonds....

Wow. Imposed on you?

Many of us no doubt could say the same thing of Daniel Craig today. Sort of a reverse engineering, with any shortcoming puttied-over with claims (which can only be made of him as the current James Bond) that we'll "see it corrected next time."

And even more so, as the Internet did not exist with Forums of advocacy in the late 1980s for Dalton.

Conversely, as Sean Connery was the only one to make Bond movies in which Ian Fleming could in any way have been involved, he must have been the closest.

So folks disagree. Fine. But I think your claim could easily be made against any number of others who see it their way.

#63 Trident

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 12:22 PM

For instance, Fleming's Bond clearly preferred sex over violence. *** Fleming's Bond would have pushed the mission aside for some quality time with women.

Would you care to cite some examples? What do you make of Bond's ruminations in Chapter Four of Casino Royale about the dangers of having women on an assignment? ... I'm not arguing that Fleming's Bond behaves like a monk when on a mission. I cannot, however, think of an instance when Bond deliberately jeopardized the success of his mission in order to sleep with a woman. Have you got an example in mind?

Could be argued both ways, depending on the mission / time period, I think.

In On Her Majesty's Secret Service (the novel), I think he clearly acts to the contrary of what you've cited from Casino Royale; eg, with Ruby.




Not exactly. In OHMSS getting close to Ruby was part of the mission. It was Bond's means to find out more about the treatment and the identities of the girls. It was a calculated risk, yet also a good cover. Snooping around the clinc wasn't possible, likewise asking too nosy questions. But snuggling up with Ruby provided crucial information and a perfect cover. Frankly, what would have Bunt and Blofeld done if they caught him with Ruby? Castrate him? It's not as if the clinic was a cloister and Ruby Bunt's mentally handicapped underage daughter. Two grown-up people having a bit of fun under their sheets, what's more natural? It happens all the time and most of us actually owe their lives to such happenings.

No, Ruby was an official SIS operation. Part of. In the greater picture. So to speak.

#64 Panavision

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 02:55 PM

This aside, there's more of Fleming's Bond in five minutes of Bond meeting Andrea Anders for the first time in The Man with the Golden Gun than there is in four hours or so of Timothy Dalton's Bond.


I can't picture Fleming's Bond saying "a water pistol?"

Seriously, the firs 5 minutes of TLD in Czechoslovakia are some of the most Fleminingesque moments in the entire series.


In my opinion, the best Bond filmed yet.

#65 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 06:38 PM

Over the last couple of months, I've spent a lot of time in and around Timothy Dalton's two outings as James Bond. And let me say from the outset that I think he's one of the best 007's of the lot, and the closest to Ian Fleming's literary creation.
This was reportedly his goal.


I am sure he desired to be Fleming's Bond. When it comes down to it, however, he ended up conforming to Hollywood's action film blockbuster. In other words, he was just an action film hero like any other. Nothing to do with Fleming's Bond.

For instance, Fleming's Bond clearly preferred sex over violence. Film audiences preferred violence over sex by the late 80s, and Dalton's films tried to give audiences what they wanted which was violence and action. Dalton in Licence To Kill seemed like he had no desire for sex. Pam and Lupe are more sexually aggressive, and they have to force Bond to sleep with them. Fleming's Bond would have pushed the mission aside for some quality time with women.


At the end of the book Dr No it was almost a rape

Of Bond by Honey Ryder.

Edited by Stephen Spotswood, 12 April 2010 - 06:39 PM.


#66 Dell Deaton

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 09:17 PM

Over the last couple of months, I've spent a lot of time in and around Timothy Dalton's two outings as James Bond....

I am sure he desired to be Fleming's Bond....

At the end of the book Dr No it was almost a rape

Of Bond by Honey Ryder.

Priceless!

When I read this I truly laughed out loud. (Thank you for that.)

PS: Agreed.

#67 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 05:53 AM

In the books it was pretty clear Bond preferred sex over violence

But who wouldn't?

But Bond was this clerkish type, with some kind of military/intelligence training that when the situation was tight, he could lash out in ways unexpected to the bad guys. I always visualized a quick, surgical, scientific approach, but not brawling. And until the mission was over, Bond didn't want women cluttering things up.

And Bond didn't even always get the girl. At the end of OHMSS he has to walk away nonchalant after being rebuffed by Gala Brand, because he knew he had an image to maintain, when actually he was mortified.

Edited by Stephen Spotswood, 18 April 2010 - 05:56 AM.


#68 zerominus

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 10:27 AM

And Bond didn't even always get the girl. At the end of OHMSS he has to walk away nonchalant after being rebuffed by Gala Brand, because he knew he had an image to maintain, when actually he was mortified.


That was actually at the end of Moonraker. One of my favourite endings to any Bond novel, but the ending of OHMSS (novel) is more infamous as it was also used in the movie of the same name. Oh for a faithful adaptation of Moonraker... but that's worthy of a separate thread.

#69 Dell Deaton

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 12:05 PM

And Bond didn't even always get the girl.... rebuffed by Gala Brand....


That was actually at the end of Moonraker. One of my favourite endings to any Bond novel.... Oh for a faithful adaptation of Moonraker... but that's worthy of a separate thread.

Agreed. Talk about untapped Fleming!

But, of course: Only if they get the car correct, eh?

Let me know if you start that "separate thread." I'll definitely weigh in.

#70 byline

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 03:30 PM

http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0330.htm

What a plumber!

That first 20 minutes of TLD are among the most "Flemingesque" cinema that exists.

I agree with this. Had the entire film maintained that darkness and intensity . . . well, I can see it going both ways. The general public would have been blown away, or (and I think this is more likely) they would have rejected this style, associating so closely with the more comical style that prevailed in the Moore years.

I also agree with those who say that, while Dalton aspired to be Fleming's Bond, and he certainly had the potential to achieve that, there was not the behind-the-camera support for this idea that there has been for Craig. While Dalton seemed to make every effort to craft his own performance in that direction, others were conspiring -- at least in his first film -- to go in a different, more familiarly "Moore"-ish direction, and the two clashed, not always very comfortably. "The Living Daylights" is my favorite of the two Dalton films, yet there are points where I feel it's clear that not everyone was working from a unified front. Whereas, with Craig's "Casino Royale" entry into the series, I do sense a much more unified, cohesive style (and that's a big part of why I find it so satisfying). Had Dalton been given that same kind of support, who knows how far he could have gone?

#71 Dekard77

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 03:44 PM

http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0330.htm

What a plumber!

That first 20 minutes of TLD are among the most "Flemingesque" cinema that exists.

I agree with this. Had the entire film maintained that darkness and intensity . . . well, I can see it going both ways. The general public would have been blown away, or (and I think this is more likely) they would have rejected this style, associating so closely with the more comical style that prevailed in the Moore years.

I also agree with those who say that, while Dalton aspired to be Fleming's Bond, and he certainly had the potential to achieve that, there was not the behind-the-camera support for this idea that there has been for Craig. While Dalton seemed to make every effort to craft his own performance in that direction, others were conspiring -- at least in his first film -- to go in a different, more familiarly "Moore"-ish direction, and the two clashed, not always very comfortably. "The Living Daylights" is my favorite of the two Dalton films, yet there are points where I feel it's clear that not everyone was working from a unified front. Whereas, with Craig's "Casino Royale" entry into the series, I do sense a much more unified, cohesive style (and that's a big part of why I find it so satisfying). Had Dalton been given that same kind of support, who knows how far he could have gone?


Director is incapable of adjusting from Moore to Dalton, Peter Hunt would have been a dynamite choice.
Dalton would have fared much better if he had time to rehearse. 3rd act of the film is rather weak. Worst point is there is no identification given to Dalton as Bond in Bondland. Craig had the gambling scene, sea bath and a cool moment wearing the tux for the first time.
Even Laz had certain scenes that made him feel and look Bond which I can buy.
The way Glen directed TD is almost dismissive.

#72 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 06:35 PM

And Bond didn't even always get the girl.... rebuffed by Gala Brand....


That was actually at the end of Moonraker. One of my favourite endings to any Bond novel.... Oh for a faithful adaptation of Moonraker... but that's worthy of a separate thread.

Agreed. Talk about untapped Fleming!

But, of course: Only if they get the car correct, eh?

Let me know if you start that "separate thread." I'll definitely weigh in.


You're right of course, I have to type on the sly at work, and I'm not used to typing in abbreviations.

#73 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 01:43 AM



#74 byline

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 04:15 PM

Wow. Mae West looks like she can barely move her face, for fear of it cracking.