158 replies to this topic

[Jim]

It depends what one looks for in a man, I s'pose.

Which is information I shall keep to myself.

[Yellow Pinky]

Sure he was manly, if be manly you mean feminine.

Seriously though, I like Brosnan well enough, even if he is my least favorite Bond. It's not so much that he wasn't manly, as he was not physically threatening or menacing. Without a weapon in his hands there was never anything that made me think. "Leave this guy alone, he could hurt you!"

I find that in varying degrees from all of the other actors, although less so from Roger Moore than the others. Even so, Roger had a size and heft to him that at least made me believe that if he hit someone they'd stay down. I never get that feeling watching Pierce.

[Judo chop]

Roger's Bond never tried to be threatening and so he wasn't. I don't believe for one second that we're meant to think his sideways rib kicks really would put a man down to keep him there. It's all in jest.

Pierce's Bond did try, however. In set-up, in delivery, and in response. Take the GOLDENEYE towel trick, for example. He marches into the boat swinging aside the sliding door like it was a western saloon. There's a fancy whip and a fancy flip, and then the wipe of sweat from his brow with a fearsome, glowering scowl.

Or the "I don't need no stinking wheelchair..." <POW!> "Now you do." exchange in DAD.

All drastic attempts at being 'manly'. Things that never would have happened in Roger's world.

[jaguar007]

Roger's Bond never tried to be threatening and so he wasn't. I don't believe for one second that we're meant to think his sideways rib kicks really would put a man down to keep him there. It's all in jest.

Pierce's Bond did try, however. In set-up, in delivery, and in response. Take the GOLDENEYE towel trick, for example. He marches into the boat swinging aside the sliding door like it was a western saloon. There's a fancy whip and a fancy flip, and then the wipe of sweat from his brow with a fearsome, glowering scowl.

Or the "I don't need no stinking wheelchair..." <POW!> "Now you do." exchange in DAD.

All drastic attempts at being 'manly'. Things that never would have happened in Roger's world.

I always felt it looked like he was posing in GE when swung the boat door open, it looked exaggerated and unnatural.

Brosnan did try to play Bond tougher than Moore did. HOwever in those scenes when Bond was serious and tough, Moore pulled it off much more naturally than Brosnan did. Look at the scene when Moore slaps Andrea in TMWTGG, Moore came across much colder and tougher in that scene than Brosnan ever did (Brosnan's best scene was with Dr. Kauffman in TND, where he still used the same facial expression he uses for anger, pain etc).

[The Shark]

I also think that Daniel Craig is almost too manly for Bond.

Rubbish. Surely you jest?

I totally agree with what WhatMeWorry has said - this is my major critcism of Craig's Bond.

I like the physicality Craig brings to the table. No-one can argue that he is more than competent in action scenes, however what gains he has in these areas, I feel, make him lacking in others. Yeah he is 'manly' in a stereotypical sense, but it is a far too brutish macho image for the Bond of the books, or even the movies for that matter, that borders on a mini-Schwarzenggar - just with better pronunciation.

Take the scene where he crashes through the dry-wall when pursuing Mollaka in Casino Royale. Yes it was humourous and unexpected and provided a nice juxtoposition and set a new tone for the character very efficiently. But is a was too comic-book. Too Hulk-smash but in pink rather than green. He looks like he spends every night in the gym. I'm sure he eats well and has perfectly formed stools but it just looks like he tries to hard. With ALL the other Bonds, their 'manliness' appears much more natural to me. Become too 'manly' and it becomes almost thuggish and somewhat repulsive.

Overall I think Craig is great in the roll. He can act and he is as cool as a cucumber. But is he suave? I'd have to say no, even if the swanky Tom Ford suits can dissuade me momentarily.

I guess it depends on what you look for in Bond. Like Craig, Connery was cool and charismatic, if not, more charming. But I never thought of Connery's Bond as suave, that's more Brosnan's and Moore's area.

The Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin analogy another user brought up was also spot on.

[David Schofield]

Well, for all his purported lack of "manliness" from the experts on this board, I'm sure Brozza got more pussy than any of them, so it can't really have been a hindrance, can it?

[Zorin Industries]

Agreed David.

Also, there is a difference between being "manly" (what an awful phrase) and being masculine.

And aren't all the blokes on this thread the wrong ones to answer the question?

[David Schofield]

And aren't all the blokes on this thread the wrong ones to answer the question?

Well, I do get the feeling that one or two on here might want to be Dan's new Vesper, subconsciously or otherwise.

[Judo chop]

Well, for all his purported lack of "manliness" from the experts on this board, I'm sure Brozza got more pussy than any of them, so it can't really have been a hindrance, can it?

Indeed. That is what matters most. As long as I can be confident the current Bond actor is getting laid at the strokes of two and ten every evening by the kinds of women who adorn those dating ads I see on my yahoo main page, I don’t care what kind of physicality he brings to the character.

Needless to say after all that sarcasm, I have no idea what your or Zorin’s points are, except that "manly", "manliness" and all other "manish" derivatives should be placed in quotations.

[00Twelve]

Pierce's Bond did try, however. In set-up, in delivery, and in response. Take the GOLDENEYE towel trick, for example. He marches into the boat swinging aside the sliding door like it was a western saloon. There's a fancy whip and a fancy flip, and then the wipe of sweat from his brow with a fearsome, glowering scowl.

I quite like that bit. Thought it was one of his better moments as Bond. (Er, minus the stance for opening the door. I can only imagine the outtakes as he tried to open the door with his feet planted normally.)

[Judo chop]

I quite like that bit.

I do too. I like the choreography, and I like Brosnan’s execution of it. (He was always better and more believable with the graceful, tai-chi-like combat maneuvers). However, I do find Brosnan’s glowering afterwards very forced, as opposed to a Bondian 'cool'. I don’t think he sells that as believably. He comes off as a guy acting tough rather than a tough guy.

Anyway. The point I was making with that post was to compare vibes between Roger’s Bond and Pierce’s, and how that kind of aggressive toughguy physicality wasn't a goal with the former.

[PPK_19]

I quite like that bit.

I do too. I like the choreography, and I like Brosnan’s execution of it. (He was always better and more believable with the graceful, tai-chi-like combat maneuvers). However, I do find Brosnan’s glowering afterwards very forced, as opposed to a Bondian 'cool'. I don’t think he sells that as believably. He comes off as a guy acting tough rather than a tough guy.

Anyway. The point I was making with that post was to compare vibes between Roger’s Bond and Pierce’s, and how that kind of aggressive toughguy physicality wasn't a goal with the former.

Very true Judo Chop. Roger played the role for laughs most of the time, so looking manly and brutal wasn't his goal.
Though in TMWTGG i find Moore at his brutal, 'manly' best. When he strikes Miss Anders across the face and that fight scene in the belly dancer's dressing room, i thought, made him look 'manly'.
As for Pierce, i always thought he tried too hard when trying to come across as a tough guy. So the effect just made him look like he was acting, rather than it coming more naturally like with Craig.

[Tybre]

I quite like that bit.

(He was always better and more believable with the graceful, tai-chi-like combat maneuvers).

Agree to a point. Imo he was best when he thrashed the hell out of the bloke in the elevator in GE. Obviously something like that can't happen with every fight, but I really think that very brief scrap was where Brosnan was at his best when it came to fighting.

[Judo chop]

Agree to a point. Imo he was best when he thrashed the hell out of the bloke in the elevator in GE. Obviously something like that can't happen with every fight, but I really think that very brief scrap was where Brosnan was at his best when it came to fighting.

If memory serves, that wasn't him. It's clearly a stuntman who drops down into the elevator, and I do believe it's the stuntman who also provides the hellish thrashing. Then it's cut back to Broz with slightly tossed hair for the quick interchange with Natalya.

I think we have to fast forward to the fight w/006 to find some real support for Broz's best action.

[Tybre]

Agree to a point. Imo he was best when he thrashed the hell out of the bloke in the elevator in GE. Obviously something like that can't happen with every fight, but I really think that very brief scrap was where Brosnan was at his best when it came to fighting.

If memory serves, that wasn't him. It's clearly a stuntman who drops down into the elevator, and I do believe it's the stuntman who also provides the hellish thrashing. Then it's cut back to Broz with slightly tossed hair for the quick interchange with Natalya.

I think we have to fast forward to the fight w/006 to find some real support for Broz's best action.

Eh, it's been a while since I've seen the film. Might pop it in later tonight and just fast forward to the elevator. Stuntman or no, I still think it's the best example of combat in Brosnan film.

[Judo chop]

Stuntman or no, I still think it's the best example of combat in Brosnan film.

If we’re talking about BrozBond action, then your observation is fair enough. It’s a right good thrashing he gives.

But if we’re talking about what Brosnan The Actor brought to Bond… I think we’ll find that his best stuff is the fancier stuff as opposed to the straight-up brawling.

I submit:

The towel flip.
The 007 fight.
A good solid ashtray over the head in TND.
The tie stab in TWINE.
The DAD swordfight (just almost great again for obvious stuntman insertions and a silly diving roll.)

The fights where we see his big, "manly", wind-up Mike Tyson Punch Out™ swings are poor. Just as they would have been if Roger had done the same.

[jaguar007]

The fights where we see his big, "manly", wind-up Mike Tyson Punch Out™ swings are poor. Just as they would have been if Roger had done the same.

I actually think Roger's punches were more convincing (when it was not clearly a stunt man). Roger would at least throw his body into a punch, Pierce tended to just use his arm for the punch, realistically much less potent.

[00Twelve]

Stuntman or no, I still think it's the best example of combat in Brosnan film.

If we’re talking about BrozBond action, then your observation is fair enough. It’s a right good thrashing he gives.

But if we’re talking about what Brosnan The Actor brought to Bond… I think we’ll find that his best stuff is the fancier stuff as opposed to the straight-up brawling.

I submit:

The towel flip.
The 007 fight.
A good solid ashtray over the head in TND.
The tie stab in TWINE.
The DAD swordfight (just almost great again for obvious stuntman insertions and a silly diving roll.)

The fights where we see his big, "manly", wind-up Mike Tyson Punch Out™ swings are poor. Just as they would have been if Roger had done the same.

Mmm, I wasn't much on that control room brawl in TND, mostly because all the quick grace of his fighting in GE seemed to be nowhere. It's exactly as if the fight choreographer was told to make him seem more like Connery by making his fighting style more brawlish (I think that's actually what happened). Thought the ashtray crash was spoiled by this funny follow-through that seemed very Moore-ish.

:nerd:

I'm now to the point that I don't even like the swordfight. I can't see Broz looking anything other than awkward. Case in point, the sword lock-up. I feel so uncomfortable watching that.

May I add the fake lighter punch-out in Saigon to the good list? Thought it was another one of his best Bondian moments.

[JimmyBond]

I don't care for his punch after the lighter fake out in TND because like tybre says, Brosnan uses a wind up Mike Tyson-like punch. It doesnt even look like his fist connects with his opponent. It's interesting that after TND we never see Brosnan employ this type of punch again.

[00Twelve]

I don't care for his punch after the lighter fake out in TND because like tybre says, Brosnan uses a wind up Mike Tyson-like punch. It doesnt even look like his fist connects with his opponent. It's interesting that after TND we never see Brosnan employ this type of punch again.

Not at the beginning; just before he joins the bike shop fight. There's no windup; his hands are right in front of the dude's face and he punches from there. Fake lighter>>SURPRISE! Open hands!>>punch. I'm not at all a fan of the PTS punch, which does have a lame windup.

[JimmyBond]

Ok, I understand what tybre meant now. I still don't care for Brosnan's fighting style in TND. He never got a consistent fighting style. Granted he only did four films so perhaps he would have devoleped one if he had gotten to do more films. In fact, I don't believe Rog's fighting style took effect until 'Spy, and then after that he fights most of his fights with the same style.

They were probably just seeing what worked with Brosnan, and when you think about it he never really got a good brawling scene like Moore had in many of his films. The closest Brosnan got to one was the recording studio fight, but even than that was mostly played for laughs.

[00Twelve]

Ok, I understand what tybre meant now. I still don't care for Brosnan's fighting style in TND. He never got a consistent fighting style. Granted he only did four films so perhaps he would have devoleped one if he had gotten to do more films. In fact, I don't believe Rog's fighting style took effect until 'Spy, and then after that he fights most of his fights with the same style.

They were probably just seeing what worked with Brosnan, and when you think about it he never really got a good brawling scene like Moore had in many of his films. The closest Brosnan got to one was the recording studio fight, but even than that was mostly played for laughs.

Agreed.

[Judo chop]

Mmm, I wasn't much on that control room brawl in TND, mostly because all the quick grace of his fighting in GE seemed to be nowhere

Oh, I totally agree. The control room brawl sucks. I only cited the ashtray move in particular, because that WAS very Moorish. Or perhaps that playful Connery. That kind of clever application of a 'device' suits Pierce, where fighting based on raw strength does not.

[Stephen Spotswood]

I think Dalton was better than either Brosnan or Craig and playing the hard and soft of Bond.

[JimmyBond]

I think Dalton was better than either Brosnan or Craig and playing the hard and soft of Bond.

Plus both Dalton and Craig have a more consistent fighting style, even after just two films. Ignoring the Craig films for a minute, it's hard to believe that the same team that gave us Dalton's two films also gave us Brosnan's four. While the quality of Dalton's films are up to debate, they are both two solid films that know exactly what they want to accomplish. With Pierce they really werent sure what direction they wanted to go in. "Trying to have their cake and eating it too." Is a phrase that comes up when thinking about the Brosnan era, if they had just chose one path and stuck with it we might have had some stronger films.

[00Twelve]

Mmm, I wasn't much on that control room brawl in TND, mostly because all the quick grace of his fighting in GE seemed to be nowhere

Oh, I totally agree. The control room brawl sucks. I only cited the ashtray move in particular, because that WAS very Moorish. Or perhaps that playful Connery. That kind of clever application of a 'device' suits Pierce, where fighting based on raw strength does not.

Ah, yes. Indeed. Towel, ashtray, guy's own knife...now I see. Good point. I'd call the towel a Connery move and the ashtray a Moore. Maybe the TWINE move is legitimately his own.

I need to watch Goldeneye again. Great fun.

[Safari Suit]

While the quality of Dalton's films are up to debate, they are both two solid films that know exactly what they want to accomplish.

That doesn't leave much room for a debate

[JimmyBond]

Wow, rereading that I can see why it doesnt make much sense. I didn't articulate well at all, but what I meant was that both of Dalton's films were quality films in my opinion.

[bondrules]

I think the point is if Brosnan would kick a goon's ars in a movie. He looked to me, in many occasions, that he would consider rapin' the bad guys as well. You know, while duking it out / in the heat of the moment. Male or female.

This is not a good thing.

[killkenny kid]

It depends what one looks for in a man, I s'pose.

Which is information I shall keep to myself.

Took the words..........