123 replies to this topic

[volante]

Bourne franchise is good well paced and exciting. But the plot is very limited and personal.

AND IT AINT BOND

[Loomis]

Well, thank goodness for that. I don't want it to be Bond. Bond is something we already have. Let Bourne be its own thing.

[marktmurphy]

Re: THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM, I don't much care for it. I think the story has nothing of significance to it, and in many ways feels just as slapdash and tagged-on as QUANTUM OF SOLACE does (what counts as a "revelation" at the end of ULTIMATUM is really nothing of the sort). But it is a more entertaining film than the frequently plodding QUANTUM OF SOLACE, and ties in some crackling set-pieces

We agree yet again, Harms.

[DamnCoffee]

Let Bourne be its own thing.

I agree completely. The Jason Bourne series is brilliant, as is the James Bond series. Even if I prefer Bond more, I still don't understand why everyones making a massive fuss over Bourne and Bond. In the famous worlds of Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along?"

[Mr. Blofeld]

Mathis doesn't do anything for Bond in South America that Bond was incapable of doing himself.

He introduces Bond to the Colonel!

And a fat lot of good the Colonel was.

I hear what y'all are saying, but, sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-it, it's pretty obvious that the Purvmeister, the Wademeister and the Haggmeister were writing to the brief of "Mathis must be given a fairly large role in this one - Giancarlo isn't cheap, so let's get as much mileage out of him as we can", rather than a brief of "Let the story and characters develop organically".

That's my take on it, and I'm sticking to it.

I'm with you 100%. Unlike you originally suggested, they did bother to give Mathis a reason to be with Bond in South America, but that doesn't mean they handled Mathis properly. Even with that narrative reason, he feels rather forced into the film, and ultimately to no real purpose, since he's killed not too long after being introduced back into the film. It, like many things about QUANTUM OF SOLACE, feels rather slapdash. I have no real problems with them killing Mathis off, mind you. But if they're going to do it, they had better earn it. I don't think they really do.

Re: THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM, I don't much care for it. I think the story has nothing of significance to it, and in many ways feels just as slapdash and tagged-on as QUANTUM OF SOLACE does (what counts as a "revelation" at the end of ULTIMATUM is really nothing of the sort). But it is a more entertaining film than the frequently plodding QUANTUM OF SOLACE, and ties in some crackling set-pieces

Ah, now there, you're mistaken.

If anything, Quantum of Solace has the better setpieces, because at least in QOS, you're able to tell who the frak is winning in a fight.

Also, I can see what you mean about Mathis, but I'm positive that, even with the brief you suggest the writers had been sent, Broccoli and Wilson felt the Mathis storyline from the last film needed closure; they got it, and proper closure, in my opinion.

If a scene in a film can make you cry, regardless of whether it's in a Bond movie or not, it's an effective scene. I cried at the end of Schindler's List, where Schindler breaks down over not having saved enough lives; I cried at the scene in In Bruges where Ken prepares to jump off the bell-tower, since the performance was so emotional and the song they were playing, "On Raglan Road", was so exquisitely beautiful; I cried at the end of On Her Majesty's Secret Service, when Bond cradles his wife's head in his hands and sobs quietly (hell, I'm crying just thinking of it now).

I cried at Mathis's death scene in Quantum of Solace; therefore, it (as well as all the other Mathis scenes before it) is very, very effective.

Q.E.D.

[The Shark]

because at least in QOS, you're able to tell who the frak is winning in a fight.

That's right, it's the guy with the dark suit.

Oh wait! They're all wearing dark suits (or in dark cars)- my bad.

[Mr. Blofeld]

because at least in QOS, you're able to tell who the frak is winning in a fight.

That's right, it's the guy with the dark suit. Oh wait! They're all wearing dark suits (or in dark cars)- my bad.

Do you need glasses, good sir? I was able to make out who was who just fine in the Slate-Bond fight scene and the car chase at the beginning of the film; please don't use sarcasm to try and invalidate my opinion.

[The Shark]

because at least in QOS, you're able to tell who the frak is winning in a fight.

That's right, it's the guy with the dark suit. Oh wait! They're all wearing dark suits (or in dark cars)- my bad.

Do you need glasses, good sir? I was able to make out who was who just fine in the Slate-Bond fight scene and the car chase at the beginning of the film; please don't use sarcasm to try and invalidate my opinion.

Then please don't try to patronise posters and use oh so convenient smilies to invalidate another's point of view and gain some kind of intellectual higher ground.

Case in point;

Edited by The Shark, 22 August 2009 - 04:05 PM.

[Harmsway]

Re: THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM, I don't much care for it. I think the story has nothing of significance to it, and in many ways feels just as slapdash and tagged-on as QUANTUM OF SOLACE does (what counts as a "revelation" at the end of ULTIMATUM is really nothing of the sort). But it is a more entertaining film than the frequently plodding QUANTUM OF SOLACE, and ties in some crackling set-pieces

We agree yet again, Harms.

Glad to hear it.

If anything, Quantum of Solace has the better setpieces, because at least in QOS, you're able to tell who the frak is winning in a fight.

I have no such problem with BOURNE ULTIMATUM.

Also, I can see what you mean about Mathis, but I'm positive that, even with the brief you suggest the writers had been sent, Broccoli and Wilson felt the Mathis storyline from the last film needed closure; they got it, and proper closure, in my opinion.

It did need closure. But they apparently had no idea of how to do it in a way that felt natural.

I cried at Mathis's death scene in Quantum of Solace; therefore, it (as well as all the other Mathis scenes before it) is very, very effective.

Or maybe you're just a big softy.

I found Mathis' death scene to be rather emotionally uninvolving, to be quite honest. I wish I'd had the desire to cry. But given how he'd only been in the film around 10-15 minutes before he was kicked out of it, the only thing I found worth crying about was how careless the whole thing was. The moment felt unearned.

But it's worth mentioning that Mathis has some of the best scenes in the film, whether it's the chat with Bond at the villa, or the lovely chat about pills on the airplane.

[DamnCoffee]

Interesting. When I first saw Mathis' death, I found myself close to tears. It was indeed a very moving scene. Now though, I'm not that bothered by it. Probably due to the fact that his resemblance to Joseph Fritzl is uncanny.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Then please don't try to patronise posters and use oh so convenient smilies to invalidate another's point of view and gain some kind of intellectual higher ground. Case in point:

For the record, I'm not trying to invalidate your point of view and gain some kind of intellectual higher ground; I just don't want to come off as an unemotional total jackwad, which I, in all likelihood, sound pretty close to if I state any benign arguments without a smiley at the end.

Case in point: see above.

If anything, Quantum of Solace has the better setpieces, because at least in QOS, you're able to tell who the frak is winning in a fight.

I have no such problem with BOURNE ULTIMATUM.

Seriously? In the Tangiers fight scene with the CIA assassin, I could barely tell what in hell was going on; in the Bond/Slate fight scene, in comparison, the quick cuts and angles of shooting kept me informed of who was who, while still exciting me with action.

Also, I can see what you mean about Mathis, but I'm positive that, even with the brief you suggest the writers had been sent, Broccoli and Wilson felt the Mathis storyline from the last film needed closure; they got it, and proper closure, in my opinion.

It did need closure. But they apparently had no idea of how to do it in a way that felt natural.

I thought it felt natural; hmmmmm, to each his own...

I cried at Mathis's death scene in Quantum of Solace; therefore, it (as well as all the other Mathis scenes before it) is very, very effective.

Or maybe you're just a big softy.

Says the fellow who cried at OHMSS.

[I found Mathis' death scene to be rather emotionally uninvolving, to be quite honest. I wish I'd had the desire to cry. But given how he'd only been in the film around 10-15 minutes before he was kicked out of it, the only thing I found worth crying about was how careless the whole thing was. The moment felt unearned.

I thought it was earned; if you view CR and QOS as one long story, Mathis is a small, but important, character, and has a part to play in shaping the young agent Bond's psyche -- even with his death.

But it's worth mentioning that Mathis has some of the best scenes in the film, whether it's the chat with Bond at the villa, or the lovely chat about pills on the airplane.

Agreed; the villa chat is even based off of the Nature of Evil conversation from Casino Royale the novel, and the airplane scene, even if it is original, feels very much like it could sit comfortably with the many conversations in You Only Live Twice between Bond and Henderson and Bond and Tiger: It's the touch of brotherhood and, in a way, tenderness between men sharing professions.

Interesting. When I first saw Mathis' death, I found myself close to tears. It was indeed a very moving scene.

I am in agreement with you there, though, in my case, I still find it very moving.

Now though, I'm not that bothered by it. Probably due to the fact that his resemblance to Joseph Fritzl is uncanny.

...and now, you've gone and made me think of his gruesome death scene in Hannibal; thanks, Mharkin!

[DamnCoffee]

"What's keeping you awake?" - "Probably the fact that your daughter's in the next compartment...."

[Mr. Blofeld]

"What's keeping you awake?" - "Probably the fact that your daughter's in the next compartment...."

Seriously, Harksters, why has your opinion of QOS dropped in the months following its release? It's only risen for me.

[DamnCoffee]

"What's keeping you awake?" - "Probably the fact that your daughter's in the next compartment...."

Seriously, Harksters, why has your opinion of QOS dropped in the months following its release? It's only risen for me.

I'm just beginning to see it's flaws. That's all. This is what I wrote in another thread about Quantum.

Quantum of Solace is a horrible sequel, but a good Bond movie. It's great, mind blowing entertainment, but doesn't contain the intensity nor the brutalness from Casino Royale or a movie that's supposed to be about a guy avenging his lover. There's a few good gems in there, but not enough.

I do think that some people have been pretty unfair about it though, by making it out to be worser than it actually is (Or better in some respects). For example, saying that it's worse than Die Another Day, A View To A Kill or Diamonds Are Forever is criminal. I can see why some people rank it #22 on there best Bond movie lists, not that I agree. But I understand that some people, (myself included), expected a lot more and were dissapointed.

It's a real shame, because in there is a great movie trying to get out. Mathis' Death and Bond cradling Camille in the burning hotel are easily some of most emotional scenes in the franchise. WHY couldn't we get a movie that didn't make them feel out of place.

This is probably what the average movie goer would've made of Quantum....

I cannot wait for this movie! I wonder how it will start! Gunbarrel, Gunbarrel, Gubarrel, Gunbar... Mountain. -_-
Action, Action, Action, Action, Action!, OH it's him from Casino Royale! Oh look he's dead now. Action, Action! OH they're in a bloody cave!, Soppy Story, Judi Dench, Oil Lady, who's she again? Action! Action! Action!, Wiered guy with axe!, buring hotel, wow, that scene is fantastic! wow, so is that!, OH MY GOD COOL! Oh she's kissed him and left has she? I didn't really notice... Oooh Snow! Oh wow, so that's her boyfriend. Brilliant, It's finally getting good... Gunbarrel, end credits. -_-

Honestly, I left the cinema on a high, because me as a hardcore Bond fan, just saw the new Bond movie. But, when I was coming out, I saw an old couple and they summed up Quantum brilliantly...

"Eeeeeh! What did you think of that, Paul?"
"Think of what?"

[PrinceKamalKhan]

I don't hate it, I was just really disappointed. Die Another Day just had to be better than TWINE; perhaps it did, perhaps it didn't from where you stand, but it only had to be a fun, exciting Bond film.
Quantum had to be as good, or better than Casino- the best Bond film in years, which totally reinvented the thing. And they fumbled it entirely- it feels like they're making it up as they go along, are all acting their socks off hoping that someone will fill in exactly why it's all so Serious And Important later, and no-one does. It's a massive let-down because it could have been so good. DAD was never going to be as good as QOS should have been.

Well stated, marktmurphy. Pretty much sums up my reaction to QOS. And I do prefer DAD to TWINE.

[Mr. Blofeld]

"What's keeping you awake?" - "Probably the fact that your daughter's in the next compartment...."

Seriously, Harksters, why has your opinion of QOS dropped in the months following its release? It's only risen for me.

I'm just beginning to see it's flaws. That's all. This is what I wrote in another thread about Quantum.

Quantum of Solace is a horrible sequel, but a good Bond movie. It's great, mind blowing entertainment, but doesn't contain the intensity nor the brutalness from Casino Royale or a movie that's supposed to be about a guy avenging his lover. There's a few good gems in there, but not enough.

I do think that some people have been pretty unfair about it though, by making it out to be worser than it actually is (Or better in some respects). For example, saying that it's worse than Die Another Day, A View To A Kill or Diamonds Are Forever is criminal. I can see why some people rank it #22 on there best Bond movie lists, not that I agree. But I understand that some people, (myself included), expected a lot more and were dissapointed.

It's a real shame, because in there is a great movie trying to get out. Mathis' Death and Bond cradling Camille in the burning hotel are easily some of most emotional scenes in the franchise. WHY couldn't we get a movie that didn't make them feel out of place.

This is probably what the average movie goer would've made of Quantum....

I cannot wait for this movie! I wonder how it will start! Gunbarrel, Gunbarrel, Gubarrel, Gunbar... Mountain. -_-
Action, Action, Action, Action, Action!, OH it's him from Casino Royale! Oh look he's dead now. Action, Action! OH they're in a bloody cave!, Soppy Story, Judi Dench, Oil Lady, who's she again? Action! Action! Action!, Wiered guy with axe!, buring hotel, wow, that scene is fantastic! wow, so is that!, OH MY GOD COOL! Oh she's kissed him and left has she? I didn't really notice... Oooh Snow! Oh wow, so that's her boyfriend. Brilliant, It's finally getting good... Gunbarrel, end credits. -_-

Honestly, I left the cinema on a high, because me as a hardcore Bond fan, just saw the new Bond movie. But, when I was coming out, I saw an old couple and they summed up Quantum brilliantly...

"Eeeeeh! What did you think of that, Paul?"
"Think of what?"

I read it, but I really don't think you should base your opinions on the loose conversation of a couple of possibly senile old folks...

[Tybre]

"What's keeping you awake?" - "Probably the fact that your daughter's in the next compartment...."

Seriously, Harksters, why has your opinion of QOS dropped in the months following its release? It's only risen for me.

I have to say my opinion of Solace has been dropping as well. It has its moments of brilliance, and I still like it, but it's not even in my top ten anymore. And I get the feeling it will sink three to five ranks before it stops.

[Harmsway]

I have no such problem with BOURNE ULTIMATUM.

Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

I thought it was earned; if you view CR and QOS as one long story, Mathis is a small, but important, character, and has a part to play in shaping the young agent Bond's psyche -- even with his death.

Yes, but he needed more material than he was given. He was sorely underused. Watching QUANTUM OF SOLACE on its own--and it is its own film and needs to function as such--you don't get a sense of Bond/Mathis' relationship in any great detail. We get a few good scenes, and Mathis is gone. It's a basic problem with QUANTUM OF SOLACE and all its characters. It's intent on giving us the basic skeleton of character arcs and relationships, but none of the meat.

And frankly, I think they needed to work to better re-establish their connection after Mathis' torture. Why doesn't Bond have any more doubts about his loyalty anymore? Wouldn't it have been more interesting--and poignant--to have a seed of distrust between Mathis and Bond during their relationship in QUANTUM OF SOLACE? That's one of the many reasons their relationship doesn't feel like a natural progression from CASINO ROYALE. They're buddy-buddy after a single conversation, and it doesn't at all feel right.

Nevermind that structurally, Mathis' death is put in the wrong place. It's awkwardly shoehorned into the middle of the second act and has no real emotional propulsion or direct ties into the narrative. Seriously, the way people act immediately before and after his death, it's like a moment that didn't happen. You could cut it out, and aside from some blood on Bond's shirt, it wouldn't make much of a difference. Mathis shouldn't have died until the very end of the second act, propelling us into the final third with some extra emotional oompf.

[Mr. Blofeld]

You mean, to take the place of Fields's death?

[DamnCoffee]

Or they could've just made the movie 2 and a half bloody hours long and had both.

[Harmsway]

You mean, to take the place of Fields's death?

Exactly. Fields was a nothing character (and also fairly awkwardly handled), anyway.

[The Shark]

Maybe Mathis should be found naked covered in oil on Bond's bed instead?

[The Richmond Spy]

I love Bond and Bourne, but they're not on the same playing field. Bourne recycles a LOT from previous films. Not just the same story, but even the same music.

I'm glad that the Bournes use the same music, for John Powell's music is one of the best things about the series. I also find it strangely cool that the Bournes all end with "Extreme Ways". On paper, finishing up with the same "theme song" every time is a weird idea - you can picture an unimaginative studio exec saying "Whassamatter, we can't afford a new one?" and presenting Greengrass with a list of "happening" new bands and singers. But it works. It's counterintuitively cool.

I agree with you there.

I wouldn't put "Extreme Ways" on the same level as anything that has stayed constant with Bond. Sure, it's neat that it's in each of the three films at the end, but couldn't they pick a better song?

I do like the main titles and the "treadstone assassins" themes, but after that it's nothing compared to Bond.

[The Shark]

I love Bond and Bourne, but they're not on the same playing field. Bourne recycles a LOT from previous films. Not just the same story, but even the same music.

I'm glad that the Bournes use the same music, for John Powell's music is one of the best things about the series. I also find it strangely cool that the Bournes all end with "Extreme Ways". On paper, finishing up with the same "theme song" every time is a weird idea - you can picture an unimaginative studio exec saying "Whassamatter, we can't afford a new one?" and presenting Greengrass with a list of "happening" new bands and singers. But it works. It's counterintuitively cool.

I agree with you there.

I wouldn't put "Extreme Ways" on the same level as anything that has stayed constant with Bond. Sure, it's neat that it's in each of the three films at the end, but couldn't they pick a better song?

I do like the main titles and the "treadstone assassins" themes, but after that it's nothing compared to Bond.

Arnold's scores are slightly more interesting than Powell's, though not much.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Maybe Mathis should be found naked covered in oil on Bond's bed instead?

"Forgive Vesper... forgive my nudity!"

[marktmurphy]

If anything, Quantum of Solace has the better setpieces, because at least in QOS, you're able to tell who the frak is winning in a fight.

I genuinely think the shakey cam is done better in Bourne: it gives you just enough information to see what's happening- in the Quantum rooftop chase especially they just weren't giving enough clear shots. It's better on DVD on a smaller screen, but just not as well done. And unfortunately in the Slate fight, Slate has to be someone that Bond can be mistaken for, so it is a little hard to tell the difference between them but not impossible. The Ultimatum fight is easy to follow, I'd say: I had no problems with it. You have to concentrate to appreciate it, but that's the same of all fight scenes: you can't watch Jackie Chan without considering exactly what he's doing. The book bit in particular is great and as the Ultimatum fight is more of a set piece than the Slate one (which is more of an interlude- which isn't to say it's rubbish; it's just not designed to be a high point in the way the Ultimatum one is) I'd say it was more impressive.

[Mr. Blofeld]

And unfortunately in the Slate fight, Slate has to be someone that Bond can be mistaken for, so it is a little hard to tell the difference between them but not impossible.

I think that's another thing Forster was trying to convey by that, thematically, if I may: Bond fighting with himself, both emotionally and literally (in the form of the Slate/Bond fight), over Vesper, but, in the end, he finally decides to go on (after much to hurt him), but not without slowly becoming another person; he is no longer the brash young agent we met and thought we knew in Casino Royale.

[The Shark]

And unfortunately in the Slate fight, Slate has to be someone that Bond can be mistaken for, so it is a little hard to tell the difference between them but not impossible.

I think that's another thing Forster was trying to convey by that, thematically, if I may: Bond fighting with himself, both emotionally and literally (in the form of the Slate/Bond fight), over Vesper, but, in the end, he finally decides to go on (after much to hurt him), but not without slowly becoming another person; he is no longer the brash young agent we met and thought we knew in Casino Royale.

No, he's just an even brasher, more brutish and psychopathic man.

[marktmurphy]

And unfortunately in the Slate fight, Slate has to be someone that Bond can be mistaken for, so it is a little hard to tell the difference between them but not impossible.

I think that's another thing Forster was trying to convey by that, thematically, if I may: Bond fighting with himself, both emotionally and literally (in the form of the Slate/Bond fight)

Well, you're free to think that of course, but I don't know if it was intended. More that Slate sort of had to look like Bond so that it would make sense for Camille to mistake Bond for him: well-built blond chap in a black jacket and with a metal briefcase.

[byline]

And unfortunately in the Slate fight, Slate has to be someone that Bond can be mistaken for, so it is a little hard to tell the difference between them but not impossible.

I think that's another thing Forster was trying to convey by that, thematically, if I may: Bond fighting with himself, both emotionally and literally (in the form of the Slate/Bond fight)

Well, you're free to think that of course, but I don't know if it was intended. More that Slate sort of had to look like Bond so that it would make sense for Camille to mistake Bond for him: well-built blond chap in a black jacket and with a metal briefcase.

Not just Camille (who technically had never seen Slate or the geologist he was masquerading as, but probably had a description of him so she would know who to look for), but also the fellow chasing them on the motorcycle.