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I've just seen Bourne Ultimatum and...


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#1 Donovan Mayne-Nicholls

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 10:44 PM

It's just a succession of chases briefly intermingled with conversation to give only the slightest appearance of a plot. Even the dialogue scenes are shot with that annoying handheld-for-the-sake-of-it style that directors shoot for in order to create "immediate artistic" effect. Though it wasn't as awful as Supremacy, I'm glad I didn't spend money on a ticket.
The question to all those who champion QoS remains, if you like this kind of crap that much, why don't you join a Bourne forum since evidently you're not satisfied by Bond and yo'd rather it aped Bourne to the core?
It's like a Bond fan complaining about the absence of casino scenes in Star Wars movies. That dumb.

#2 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 11:02 PM

It's just a succession of chases briefly intermingled with conversation to give only the slightest appearance of a plot. Even the dialogue scenes are shot with that annoying handheld-for-the-sake-of-it style that directors shoot for in order to create "immediate artistic" effect. Though it wasn't as awful as Supremacy, I'm glad I didn't spend money on a ticket.
The question to all those who champion QoS remains, if you like this kind of crap that much, why don't you join a Bourne forum since evidently you're not satisfied by Bond and yo'd rather it aped Bourne to the core?
It's like a Bond fan complaining about the absence of casino scenes in Star Wars movies. That dumb.


This thread is dumb.

#3 JimmyBond

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 12:21 AM

It's just a succession of chases briefly intermingled with conversation to give only the slightest appearance of a plot. Even the dialogue scenes are shot with that annoying handheld-for-the-sake-of-it style that directors shoot for in order to create "immediate artistic" effect. Though it wasn't as awful as Supremacy, I'm glad I didn't spend money on a ticket.
The question to all those who champion QoS remains, if you like this kind of crap that much, why don't you join a Bourne forum since evidently you're not satisfied by Bond and yo'd rather it aped Bourne to the core?
It's like a Bond fan complaining about the absence of casino scenes in Star Wars movies. That dumb.


Troll much?

#4 The Richmond Spy

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 01:01 AM

You can like both Bond and Bourne. QoS is just as much Bond as OHMSS or FYEO...to each their own I guess.


And yeah...Identity was the best... B)

#5 Tybre

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 01:03 AM

It's just a succession of chases briefly intermingled with conversation to give only the slightest appearance of a plot. Even the dialogue scenes are shot with that annoying handheld-for-the-sake-of-it style that directors shoot for in order to create "immediate artistic" effect. Though it wasn't as awful as Supremacy, I'm glad I didn't spend money on a ticket.
The question to all those who champion QoS remains, if you like this kind of crap that much, why don't you join a Bourne forum since evidently you're not satisfied by Bond and yo'd rather it aped Bourne to the core?
It's like a Bond fan complaining about the absence of casino scenes in Star Wars movies. That dumb.


Troll much?


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#6 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 01:36 AM

It's just a succession of chases briefly intermingled with conversation to give only the slightest appearance of a plot. Even the dialogue scenes are shot with that annoying handheld-for-the-sake-of-it style that directors shoot for in order to create "immediate artistic" effect. Though it wasn't as awful as Supremacy, I'm glad I didn't spend money on a ticket.
The question to all those who champion QoS remains, if you like this kind of crap that much, why don't you join a Bourne forum since evidently you're not satisfied by Bond and yo'd rather it aped Bourne to the core?
It's like a Bond fan complaining about the absence of casino scenes in Star Wars movies. That dumb.

Troll much?

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Not my picture, but... B)

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#7 Loomis

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 11:58 AM

I wish QUANTUM OF SOLACE was like THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM. THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM is a much better film.

#8 dee-bee-five

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 12:41 PM

It's just a succession of chases briefly intermingled with conversation to give only the slightest appearance of a plot. Even the dialogue scenes are shot with that annoying handheld-for-the-sake-of-it style that directors shoot for in order to create "immediate artistic" effect. Though it wasn't as awful as Supremacy, I'm glad I didn't spend money on a ticket.
The question to all those who champion QoS remains, if you like this kind of crap that much, why don't you join a Bourne forum since evidently you're not satisfied by Bond and yo'd rather it aped Bourne to the core?
It's like a Bond fan complaining about the absence of casino scenes in Star Wars movies. That dumb.


Well, I do champion QoS; after more than 40 years of watching the movies and reading and re-reading Fleming, it is, for me, the best film of the series.

But I didn't like the Bourne Ultimatum and don't see the connection between it and QoS. I am one of the few people who seem to think that the Bourne series has become steadily worse. The first one was quite qood - despite my finding Damon only an okay-ish actor - the second adequate and the third just an extended chase with no arc or subtext whatsoever. In contrast, QoS has the best character arcs for Bond and his leading lady in any of the films, and the subtext throughout makes it a film for grown-ups who don't need a plot spoonfed to them. It is also the best-directed Bond film for me.

But,as I say, it is only my opinion. But I'm entitled to it and I thank you not to decide for me what makes me a Bond fan or not.

#9 marktmurphy

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 01:10 PM

I wish QUANTUM OF SOLACE was like THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM. THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM is a much better film.


I'm with this. I mean, Ultimatum is sort of the best and worst of the series at the same time: there's very little plot and it's mostly action set pieces- but the action set pieces are terrific and are more than worth watching it for. And they're better than Quantum's too.
It's like Quantum in that it's really an unnecessary epilogue to a story that's already really finished rather than a proper sequel, but unlike Quantum it manages to extend the plot in a satisfactory way- Bourne actually still does learn stuff about himself and ends his situation finally. Nothing of note happens to Bond at all.

#10 dee-bee-five

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 02:36 PM

I wish QUANTUM OF SOLACE was like THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM. THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM is a much better film.


I'm with this. I mean, Ultimatum is sort of the best and worst of the series at the same time: there's very little plot and it's mostly action set pieces- but the action set pieces are terrific and are more than worth watching it for. And they're better than Quantum's too.
It's like Quantum in that it's really an unnecessary epilogue to a story that's already really finished rather than a proper sequel, but unlike Quantum it manages to extend the plot in a satisfactory way- Bourne actually still does learn stuff about himself and ends his situation finally. Nothing of note happens to Bond at all.


It really is odd how Quantum of Solace divides us, isn't it? Where I see it as having the best character arc of any of the films, you see it as having none at all. Not that I'm saying you're wrong or I'm right. But I do find it odd.

#11 Loomis

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 02:44 PM

I wish QUANTUM OF SOLACE was like THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM. THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM is a much better film.


I'm with this. I mean, Ultimatum is sort of the best and worst of the series at the same time: there's very little plot and it's mostly action set pieces- but the action set pieces are terrific and are more than worth watching it for. And they're better than Quantum's too.
It's like Quantum in that it's really an unnecessary epilogue to a story that's already really finished rather than a proper sequel, but unlike Quantum it manages to extend the plot in a satisfactory way- Bourne actually still does learn stuff about himself and ends his situation finally. Nothing of note happens to Bond at all.


Agreed, and particularly with the bits I've underlined.

#12 Bucky

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 03:13 PM

I enjoyed the bourne movies but it got a little stale with bourne vs. the evil cia again and again.

#13 marktmurphy

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 03:16 PM

It really is odd how Quantum of Solace divides us, isn't it? Where I see it as having the best character arc of any of the films, you see it as having none at all. Not that I'm saying you're wrong or I'm right. But I do find it odd.


Yes, I suppose so. I just genuinely can't see anything in there. As Bond says at the end: "I never left" i.e. nothing happened. Certainly nothing worth making a film about, anyway.

#14 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 03:36 PM

I enjoyed the bourne movies but it got a little stale with bourne vs. the evil cia again and again.

Agreed; QOS actually put a nice little twist on it by making the nasty CIA guy someone whom you couldn't possibly take seriously; a minnow pretending to be a whale, in fact. B)

#15 stamper

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 04:51 PM

I wish QUANTUM OF SOLACE was like THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM. THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM is a much better film.


You bet ! Quantum of Solace is sadly, the end of the Bond franchise. Watch as the next one will not take off year after year. Craig is too old now, and the magic of Casino Royale disappeared. The Bond franchise is dead. The reboot as gone sour.

Bring the 4th episode of the Bourne saga, so that we can get truly inventive Spy action and not crap. There's aint no love for Quantum Of Solace, (except of course from Die Hard Bond fans). The franchise is dead in the water.

When people on boards comes up with better storylines than the filmmakers, you know the franchise is in big trouble. Box office money doesn't count. QOS made money because people liked Casino Royale. They all, 100% of the non Die Hard fans, came out disappointed from the theater. It's over.

#16 The Shark

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 04:54 PM

Watch as the next one will not take off year after year. Craig is too old now, and the magic of Casino Royale disappeared. The Bond franchise is dead. The reboot as gone sour.


I bet you the next one's going to be great, since it won't be riding on the success of its predecessor like Quantum of Solace was.

#17 Judo chop

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 05:27 PM

BOURNE ULTIMATUM is not intended to be merely an action piece. It's much more about Bourne's personal journey... and I don't mean the journey to find the truth behind his history as an agent. He's really seeking the Truth of Life en route to the Truth of Truth, and finally, the True Life of Living Truth. The whole film is a symbolic truism of even deeper metaphysical symbolisms. It uses generals to explicate particulars, and not even the ones you're probably thinking of right now. For example, take the 'shaky-cam' and quick-fire editing Greengram uses; it doesn't change. At all. It's ALWAYS shaky. Is it not? Yes. Bourne's world is always moving to our perspective, but remains static to Bourne's. Obviously an ironical truth right there. In fact, Greengrath himself represents a fair bit of the irony, if you think about it. Does Bourne sense that his world is shaking around him? Hmmm? Think about it.

THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM needs to be watched hundreds of times before one can even begin to tap into the bare surface of mysteries it holds.

But QOS is a pretty darn good Bond film. Straight up.

#18 Tybre

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 05:33 PM

There's aint no love for Quantum Of Solace, (except of course from Die Hard Bond fans). The franchise is dead in the water.


More than willing to bet people were saying the same things about On Her Majesty's Secret Service and Licence to Kill back in the day. Neither of them killed the franchise. Four year gap between the release of Die Another Day and Casino Royale. And between Golden Gun and The Spy Who Loved Me. Frankly it's been, what, ten months? since Quantum of Solace was released. It's not as if they're going to be out shooting the next picture the day after the current one hits the theatres. There's also the fact that, y'know, people involved with Bond aren't tied exclusively to Bond. Other projects happen. Seems like nothing shy of unfounded overreaction on your part. Ten months and no development beyond announcing the writers and the franchise is "dead in the water"? As far as I'm concerned the franchise is dead in the water when it's been a good decade and we've heard nothing.

#19 The Shark

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 05:40 PM

I'd disagree with you about the negative reaction to OHMSS, in fact it was pretty positive. The majority of it came to people not like Lazenby as a person, heightened by a argument printed in the newspapers between him and Rigg (via letters) about everybody hating him on set, and her telling him that he's over-reacting, while also calling him intolerable, or something like that.

#20 Loomis

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 06:23 PM

It really is odd how Quantum of Solace divides us, isn't it? Where I see it as having the best character arc of any of the films, you see it as having none at all. Not that I'm saying you're wrong or I'm right. But I do find it odd.


Yes, I suppose so. I just genuinely can't see anything in there. As Bond says at the end: "I never left" i.e. nothing happened. Certainly nothing worth making a film about, anyway.


Quite. But even more importantly, as stamper points out, the magic of CASINO ROYALE has disappeared.

I'm all for heavy themes and character arcs and so on, but CASINO ROYALE dealt in such things brilliantly while never coming across as joyless. By contrast, I'm hard pushed to think of a more joyless Bond outing than QUANTUM OF SOLACE, with the obvious exception of THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH.

"Less joyless than TWINE", though - well, that's hardly a ringing endorsement. Oh, for some glitz, some glamour, some camp.

#21 Matt_13

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 06:39 PM

To each his own I suppose. I like both equally.

#22 Judo chop

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 06:39 PM

Loomis, QOS is joyless by design. It’s about a character who is having a hard time finding peace, much less joy. It should follow that QOS would be joyless. However, look for things other than joy, and QOS is worth appreciating.

TWINE is joyless, not by design, but by simply missing the target.

#23 MattofSteel

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 06:51 PM

Loomis, QOS is joyless by design. It’s about a character who is having a hard time finding peace, much less joy. It should follow that QOS would be joyless. However, look for things other than joy, and QOS is worth appreciating.

TWINE is joyless, not by design, but by simply missing the target.


Bingo. I call it narrative honesty. Everyone has been clamouring for years for a "faithful adaptation of YOLT," which is a novel that reaches levels of bleakness and joylessness that are quite stark. Would never happen on film (in a Bond film). Simply wouldn't. QOS is the closest we'll ever get, and it's a wonderful balance of a YOLT-type theme/thone and a conventional Bond movie.

#24 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 07:02 PM

Lomis, QOS is joyless by design. It’s about a character who is having a hard time finding peace, much less joy. It should follow that QOS would be joyless. However, look for things other than joy, and QOS is worth appreciating.

TWINE is joyless, not by design, but by simply missing the target.

Bingo. I call it narrative honesty. Everyone has been clamouring for years for a "faithful adaptation of YOLT," which is a novel that reaches levels of bleakness and joylessness that are quite stark. Would never happen on film (in a Bond film). Simply wouldn't. QOS is the closest we'll ever get, and it's a wonderful balance of a YOLT-type theme/tone and a conventional Bond movie.

Besides, there are some good zingers in the film which seem to have been overlooked by a vast majority of CB.ners, and no, I'm not talking about "She's seasick"... B)

#25 Syndicate

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 07:38 PM

I wish QUANTUM OF SOLACE was like THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM. THE BOURNE ULTIMATUM is a much better film.


Why should any Bond movies be like a Bourne movie for that matter. It should be that the Bourne movies be like or it took the super spy movie world to new heights since the Bond movies. I don't think the Bourne movies have done that.







i

Edited by Syndicate, 14 August 2009 - 09:41 PM.


#26 Judo chop

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 08:04 PM

Besides, there are some good zingers in the film which seem to have been overlooked by a vast majority of CB.ners,

I think ‘humorless’ and ‘joyless’ are not exactly the same criticisms. I’m sure I’ve seen films that play with a joyful tone without being humorous. Less likely, but still possible I think, is a film loaded with humor that still achieves joylessness (or fails to achieve joyfulness, however you want to say it).

In any event, I agree with you that QOS is certainly NOT humorless.

#27 marktmurphy

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 08:40 PM

Loomis, QOS is joyless by design. It’s about a character who is having a hard time finding peace, much less joy. It should follow that QOS would be joyless. However, look for things other than joy, and QOS is worth appreciating.


It's not a bleak film by any stretch, though; it's a fairly standard action movie. It's hardly Get Carter. It's just dead and lifeless. I'd say that the Bournes are much darker, with a main character with much less joy in his life than Bond; and yet they have a spark of life and are actually gripping: even Ultimatum which has the least interesting, most bolted-on plot of all them. And yet it's still a fantastic watch, whereas Quantum just ain't. There's no dramatic meat, there's no plot, there's no tension, there's no interesting action. Casino Royale had all of those, Quantum didn't.

#28 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 08:57 PM

Why all the hate? So much negativity; it's not DAD for crying out loud... B)

#29 marktmurphy

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:18 PM

I don't hate it, I was just really disappointed. Die Another Day just had to be better than TWINE; perhaps it did, perhaps it didn't from where you stand, but it only had to be a fun, exciting Bond film.
Quantum had to be as good, or better than Casino- the best Bond film in years, which totally reinvented the thing. And they fumbled it entirely- it feels like they're making it up as they go along, are all acting their socks off hoping that someone will fill in exactly why it's all so Serious And Important later, and no-one does. It's a massive let-down because it could have been so good. DAD was never going to be as good as QOS should have been.

#30 The Shark

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:31 PM

Loomis, QOS is joyless by design. It’s about a character who is having a hard time finding peace, much less joy. It should follow that QOS would be joyless. However, look for things other than joy, and QOS is worth appreciating.

TWINE is joyless, not by design, but by simply missing the target.


Bingo. I call it narrative honesty. Everyone has been clamouring for years for a "faithful adaptation of YOLT," which is a novel that reaches levels of bleakness and joylessness that are quite stark. Would never happen on film (in a Bond film). Simply wouldn't. QOS is the closest we'll ever get, and it's a wonderful balance of a YOLT-type theme/thone and a conventional Bond movie.


I disagree completley, YOLT had a very fantastical bent with Shatterhand and The Garden of Death, something that QOS completly lacks - any form exoticism, hellish beauty, fantasy, or fun.
Despite it's bleakness I find YOLT as a novel much more fun than QOS as a film, though largely due to Fleming's style of writing, and also down to Forster's sterile, castrated form of directing and story telling.