82 replies to this topic

[Stephen Spotswood]

The comedy ruins the film, the fun action sequence do work well though and are alot of fun lke they should be like the bar fight, but the fighting is very real and harsh like it should be. Actually very brutual, similar to CR in that respect.

A fight scene you can have it in any film, but only in the Bond movies (or at least EON were pioneers on that) you can have fight sequences developed in exotic and glamorous locations; and the tacky environment for the bar fight in LTK was a big disappointment on this series's trademark.

What's wrong with Bond being in a mundane location once in a while? Glamour is out there, but only a small bit of the world is glamorous, the rest is rather dull and dreary.

All the fights in exotic locales always made the Bond films feel derivative of North by Northwest. The fight scenes in the books seemed more brutal, even on the Orient Express. Often the fight scenes seemed more like street brawls, with Bond using a more commando style training. He often has to stab with knives and even on occassion strangle his victim.

That's was why I eventually stopped watching the Moore movies after Moonraker and Brosnan after Tommorrow Never Dies. They felt too much like travelogues. Plots seemed to be built around a desire to film in certain sites, whether it made any sense or not. (I absolutely hated Jaws.) And if you want to talk about a dated look, just look at Moore's wardrobe, the women's Farrah Fawcett hairstyles, and one movie where Bond makes a quiche for a girlfriend. What was wrong, was his fondue set broken?

Edited by Stephen Spotswood, 03 June 2009 - 12:39 PM.

[Safari Suit]

All the fights in exotic locales always made the Bond films feel derivative of North by Northwest.

That's a hell of a stretch.

[Gustav Graves]

For me LTK was quite disappointing, especially after the brilliant TLD. I had the feeling that the producers wanted to compete too much with other American action heroes, like Batman, Die Hard and Lethal Weapon. For me the British suaveness of this film was completely absent.

Allthough I can appreciate the film, the film was stripped off from its humour as well. Personally, I thought Daniel Craig in QOS was at times funnier than Timothy Dalton in LTK. Robert Davi was a good villain when it comes to action movies in general, but as a Bond villain he certainly lacked something. Perhaps drug lords in general lack any style .

The positive things: Bond's emotional side when Felix refers to his past marriage, Bond waterskiing, the opening sequence, the title song and Q's expanded scenes.

Personally, I disagree to diminish Roger Moore's attempts. Personally I thought FYEO was Moore's best and it did certainly capture my attention much better than in TLD.

Edited by Gustav Graves, 10 June 2009 - 02:38 AM.

[right idea, wrong pussy]

When I talked about the gorish moments of LTK, I was pointing to the the glorification of violence in that film. Put it in simple words, in Dalton's second entry violence is showed as a good thing that the hero at certain point enjoys to do, whereas in CR (and even in QOS, albeit in a lesser degree) regrets some killings, particularly when they happeneed in a very nasty context like with Dryden's contact or Obanno- a similar thing to what Bond reflects in the first chapter of the novel Goldfinger-.

And you don't think Dalton's heavy sigh and weary look after Sanchez is cremated suggests the futility of all the mass murder that has gone before it?

Dalton/Bond knows that for all his revenge, Della is still dead, and Leiter maimed.

Along comes Pam moments later as his "compensation", but the weariness and futility is still there at the Presidente's party...

I think that is more your interpretation than what is really presented in the movie. The reality is that Bond decided to take a violent vengeance in LTK, whereas in CR and even QOS, Bond like a true professional, decided to not take vengeance from the ones that are guilty of Vesper's death (Mr. White and Yusef), and instead he captures them for further MI6's interrogation.

Of course, your entire pro CR/QOS "professionalism" is based upon Bond ACTUALLY being sufficiently motivated to seek revenge for Vesper.

What is "the bitch is dea" actually means that (as it does in the novel). What if "I never left" and "will do", is response to M's request to Bond to return emphasis Bond has no interest in vengeance. After all, the dead don't believe in it. Therefore, being professional, having been betrayed by Vesper, is easy.

But Dalton-Bond is emotionaally attached to Leiter and his bride, and does seek revenge. But, ultimately, he knows it is futile.

Facts are facts, and actions speak louder than words... we can't really know what's happening in Bond's mind, but the reality is that Bond kills Sanchez in a violent- and vengeful- way , whereas he avoids to kill Mr. White in CR and to Yusef in QOS.

Having read through this entire thread, I think that instead of posting my own comments about the horror that is LTK, I can really do no better than to commend your arguments, Mr. Arlington Beech. Bravo!

[The Ghost Who Walks]

Robert Davi was a good villain when it comes to action movies in general, but as a Bond villain he certainly lacked something. Perhaps drug lords in general lack any style .

Really? He might be my favourite villain in the series. Charismatic, classy (he HAS plenty of style), and the chemistry between him and Dalton is fantastic. His death scene is glorious too.

[right idea, wrong pussy]

Robert Davi was a good villain when it comes to action movies in general, but as a Bond villain he certainly lacked something. Perhaps drug lords in general lack any style .

Really? He might be my favourite villain in the series. Charismatic, classy (he HAS plenty of style), and the chemistry between him and Dalton is fantastic. His death scene is glorious too.

I don't like LTK much but if I ever were induced to watch it again it would be because of Davi's performance, which is very classy. I think the strength of his performance actually becomes a weakness for the movie because it makes Dalton look like that much more of a sourpuss by comparison. Dalton himself provides no humor whatsoever in the film. It seems as though the creative team realized that Dalton's delivery of quips in TLD was lackluster to say the least, and so they gave all the good lines to Davi's character.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

I think the lack of humour on Bond's part in this film fits the overall tone of the flick and his "character arc" very well. He is supposed to be angry and keen on revenge throughout most of the running time, after all. However, you can't deny there is some decent humour in LTK, it's just not as obvious as in, say, Octopussy or Diamonds are Forever (every Q moment, and Dalton, Lowell and Davi all gets some pretty funny lines here and there).

For the record, I do think Dalton is an excellent deliverer of comedic lines in TLD. I always liked his deadpan delivery, and it feels far less forced than some of the one-liners given to Brosnan or Moore.

[Sigma7]

I think the lack of humour on Bond's part in this film fits the overall tone of the flick and his "character arc" very well. He is supposed to be angry and keen on revenge throughout most of the running time, after all. However, you can't deny there is some decent humour in LTK, it's just not as obvious as in, say, Octopussy or Diamonds are Forever (every Q moment, and Dalton, Lowell and Davi all gets some pretty funny lines here and there).

For the record, I do think Dalton is an excellent deliverer of comedic lines in TLD. I always liked his deadpan delivery, and it feels far less forced than some of the one-liners given to Brosnan or Moore.

I have to agree with you on daltons delivery on the comedic front, the way he says to kara in tLD, " why didnt you learn the violin?" was priceless. Brosnans one liners were like austin powers' lines. Dalton was actually damn good as Bond, and i have been slow to realise it. When DC arrived on the scene, i saw dalton esque bonds, which made me appreciate Daltons attempts all the more.

[Gustav Graves]

I think the lack of humour on Bond's part in this film fits the overall tone of the flick and his "character arc" very well. He is supposed to be angry and keen on revenge throughout most of the running time, after all. However, you can't deny there is some decent humour in LTK, it's just not as obvious as in, say, Octopussy or Diamonds are Forever (every Q moment, and Dalton, Lowell and Davi all gets some pretty funny lines here and there).

For the record, I do think Dalton is an excellent deliverer of comedic lines in TLD. I always liked his deadpan delivery, and it feels far less forced than some of the one-liners given to Brosnan or Moore.

I completely agree. Whereas Dalton's attempt to be humurous in LTK stagnated, I think there were plenty of funny lines in TLD. Also Bond's line during the carchase after Kara's remark was priceless: "Salt corrosion! ".

[Tybre]

Robert Davi was a good villain when it comes to action movies in general, but as a Bond villain he certainly lacked something. Perhaps drug lords in general lack any style .

Really? He might be my favourite villain in the series. Charismatic, classy (he HAS plenty of style), and the chemistry between him and Dalton is fantastic. His death scene is glorious too.

Favorite moment of the whole flick

I think the lack of humour on Bond's part in this film fits the overall tone of the flick and his "character arc" very well. He is supposed to be angry and keen on revenge throughout most of the running time, after all. However, you can't deny there is some decent humour in LTK, it's just not as obvious as in, say, Octopussy or Diamonds are Forever (every Q moment, and Dalton, Lowell and Davi all gets some pretty funny lines here and there).

For the record, I do think Dalton is an excellent deliverer of comedic lines in TLD. I always liked his deadpan delivery, and it feels far less forced than some of the one-liners given to Brosnan or Moore.

Indeed. It's much better suited to both the actor and the character. Can you really picture Dalton saying some of the things Moore said and having it sound natural? Even the not really all that Moore or Brosnan-ish "Farewell to Arms" joke is clumsier than the rest of his comedic lines. It by no means falls flat, but compared to other moments, it's a bit eh.

[JimmyBond]

I completely agree. Whereas Dalton's attempt to be humurous in LTK stagnated, I think there were plenty of funny lines in TLD. Also Bond's line during the carchase after Kara's remark was priceless: "Salt corrosion! ".

See now, I see it the opposite. I feel he was much better at quips in LTK to than in LD. I especially love "Yeah, looks like he came to a dead end."

[Turn]

Robert Davi was a good villain when it comes to action movies in general, but as a Bond villain he certainly lacked something. Perhaps drug lords in general lack any style .

Really? He might be my favourite villain in the series. Charismatic, classy (he HAS plenty of style), and the chemistry between him and Dalton is fantastic. His death scene is glorious too.

Absolutely, Sanchez is a very underrated villain when he very well could have fallen flat given he's not some world-threatening megalomaniac. The Bond-Sanchez relationship is perhaps the most complex hero-villain take in the series. It's much more interesting than the Bond-Trevelyan relationship, IMO.

Blofeld may be Bond's arch nemesis, but there was never anything that special about the way it came across in the films. By DAF, they are almost chummy toward one another, save for the bolt Bond put into the clone's head.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

I think the lack of humour on Bond's part in this film fits the overall tone of the flick and his "character arc" very well. He is supposed to be angry and keen on revenge throughout most of the running time, after all. However, you can't deny there is some decent humour in LTK, it's just not as obvious as in, say, Octopussy or Diamonds are Forever (every Q moment, and Dalton, Lowell and Davi all gets some pretty funny lines here and there).

For the record, I do think Dalton is an excellent deliverer of comedic lines in TLD. I always liked his deadpan delivery, and it feels far less forced than some of the one-liners given to Brosnan or Moore.

Indeed. It's much better suited to both the actor and the character. Can you really picture Dalton saying some of the things Moore said and having it sound natural?

Oh no, I can't. For all that I admire him, Dalton saying something like "He even found me quite "tit-alating!"" is kind of unthinkable.

Absolutely, Sanchez is a very underrated villain when he very well could have fallen flat given he's not some world-threatening megalomaniac. The Bond-Sanchez relationship is perhaps the most complex hero-villain take in the series. It's much more interesting than the Bond-Trevelyan relationship, IMO.

Blofeld may be Bond's arch nemesis, but there was never anything that special about the way it came across in the films. By DAF, they are almost chummy toward one another, save for the bolt Bond put into the clone's head.

That's a good point about Trevelyan. The relationship between Bond and Sanchez is handled much better than whoever-wrote-GoldenEye managed, and gives LTK an intensity that GE lacks IMO. The whole idea about Sanchez' fixation on "loyalty" adds another layer to it too.

Another thing I like about Sanchez is that his true psychopathic self is not really revealed until the very end, where he furiously tries to chop Bond to pieces with a machete. Davi, and the screenwriters, have cleverly hidden the "real" beast until this moment (though it's not that he hasn't shown his capability of evil earlier in the film). And off course, both Davi and Dalton play their final scene together exceptionally well.

Yeah, the Bond-Blofeld relationship was a big joke by the time of DAF (and possibly FYEO, where it was kind of played for laughs), but it was handled brilliantly in OHMSS. Then again, Lazenby and Savalas played the parts better than Connery and Gray did in DAF.

[Panavision]

The plot has to be one of the best and most multi-layered of all the Bond movies, it has depth, it isn't the simple beat by beat story. why the hate?

And Bond defeats the main villain with satisfaction.

[Ambler]

Dalton is my favourite Bond but I can't defend LTK.

A soulless piece of work.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Robert Davi was a good villain when it comes to action movies in general, but as a Bond villain he certainly lacked something. Perhaps drug lords in general lack any style .

Really? He might be my favourite villain in the series. Charismatic, classy (he HAS plenty of style), and the chemistry between him and Dalton is fantastic. His death scene is glorious too.

I agree with Gustav Graves. Davi could be a good actor, and maybe he delivers a good performance as Sanchez. But by no means I could declare that his character was classy or stylish- perhaps, somewhat charismatic, but that's it-; Wiseman's Dr. No was elegant even Lee's Sacaramanga wanted to be sophisticated at some point, but that's certainly not the case of this eighties's caribbean drug lord.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 18 June 2009 - 07:18 PM.

[Safari Suit]

Robert Davi defines class

"It must be wierd, not having anybody on you"

[Major Tallon]

Robert Davi was a good villain when it comes to action movies in general, but as a Bond villain he certainly lacked something. Perhaps drug lords in general lack any style .

Really? He might be my favourite villain in the series. Charismatic, classy (he HAS plenty of style), and the chemistry between him and Dalton is fantastic. His death scene is glorious too.

I agree with Gustav Graves. Davi could be a good actor, and maybe he delivers a good performance as Sanchez. But by no means I could declare that his character was classy or stylish- perhaps, somewhat charismatic, but that's it-; Wiseman's Dr. No was elegant even Lee's Sacaramanga wanted to be sophisticated at some point, but that's certainly not the case of this eighties's caribbean drug lord.

He reminds me of Fleming's Francisco Scaramanga, from the novel TMWTGG.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Robert Davi was a good villain when it comes to action movies in general, but as a Bond villain he certainly lacked something. Perhaps drug lords in general lack any style .

Really? He might be my favourite villain in the series. Charismatic, classy (he HAS plenty of style), and the chemistry between him and Dalton is fantastic. His death scene is glorious too.

I agree with Gustav Graves. Davi could be a good actor, and maybe he delivers a good performance as Sanchez. But by no means I could declare that his character was classy or stylish- perhaps, somewhat charismatic, but that's it-; Wiseman's Dr. No was elegant even Lee's Sacaramanga wanted to be sophisticated at some point, but that's certainly not the case of this eighties's caribbean drug lord.

He reminds me of Fleming's Francisco Scaramanga, from the novel TMWTGG.

Perhaps, there's a similarity there (I mean Lee's Scaramanga is at least snob, whereas the literary version of that characther is a much more rough person). But Sanchez isn't on the same level of class from the usually very stylish EON's Bond villians, since Wiseman's Doctor No to Mikkelsen's Le Chiffre.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 19 June 2009 - 02:12 AM.

[PositivelyShocking]

Heat is one of my favorite films and I would argue that Goldeneye is the Heat of the Bond series, as Bond and Trevelyan are both very much the same character, only on opposite sides of morality, exactly like Vincent Hanna and Neil McCauley.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

You could say the same about The Man With the Golden Gun, though I don't think that is "Heat-ish" in any way.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Absolutely, Sanchez is a very underrated villain when he very well could have fallen flat given he's not some world-threatening megalomaniac. The Bond-Sanchez relationship is perhaps the most complex hero-villain take in the series. It's much more interesting than the Bond-Trevelyan relationship, IMO.

Absolutely, Sanchez is a very underrated villain when he very well could have fallen flat given he's not some world-threatening megalomaniac. The Bond-Sanchez relationship is perhaps the most complex hero-villain take in the series. It's much more interesting than the Bond-Trevelyan relationship, IMO.

Blofeld may be Bond's arch nemesis, but there was never anything that special about the way it came across in the films. By DAF, they are almost chummy toward one another, save for the bolt Bond put into the clone's head.

That's a good point about Trevelyan. The relationship between Bond and Sanchez is handled much better than whoever-wrote-GoldenEye managed, and gives LTK an intensity that GE lacks IMO. The whole idea about Sanchez' fixation on "loyalty" adds another layer to it too.

Another thing I like about Sanchez is that his true psychopathic self is not really revealed until the very end, where he furiously tries to chop Bond to pieces with a machete. Davi, and the screenwriters, have cleverly hidden the "real" beast until this moment (though it's not that he hasn't shown his capability of evil earlier in the film). And off course, both Davi and Dalton play their final scene together exceptionally well.

Agreed. One problem I have with GE is while it is certainly a slicker and sleeker film than LTK thanks to its budget and advances in film making technology between 1989 and 1995 and it does feature more Bond-type locations with Russia and Monaco, there was a dramatic intensity lacking in the Bond vs. 006 relationship that was there in spades in the Bond vs. Sanchez relationship. Whether this was due to the script, MGM pressuring EON to make GE lighter than LTK or Brosnan not being able to deliver the goods in this area I don't know. However, this lack of dramatic intensity in GE is a drawback when you view it in context as immediate successor to LTK.

[ChandlerBing]

Would it have helped Tim Dalton to scream half his dialogue, then?

Give me all ya got! Give me all ya got!

Who? Who? What are you, a **** owl?

Any other Pacino classics?