82 replies to this topic

[Pierce - Daniel]

Is LTK the 'Heat' of the Bond films?

I've just finsihed watching it, and i can see why some critics may describe the film has slightly messy. But...is the film film messy or explorative in terms of plot?

firstly I want to put to bed the whole 'its too dark' talk, the first half is very dark, but the second half is quite light with moments of darkness.

But as far as the messy narrative goes.....could this be the only Bond movie when Bond and the villian really went against each other?

Sanchez is not just the villian of the piece, he's the second leading man to Dalton. From the opening reel we are learning about Sanchez. We learn about his control around the world and explore the people he trusts and looks after in his buisness. Bond at times takes a back seat to him while Sanchez takes the lead at times. bond still gets to do what he does best, but this is as much Sanchez's film as it is Bonds. Like Pacino and DeNiro in Heat or even Bale and Ledger in the Dark Knight.
Not to undersell Dalton at all, but Davi does steal the show in LTK. He is by far the most rememoral proformence in the movie, Dalton meanwhile gives a stunning turn as Bond, the moment he finds Leiter is shocking, he really does a great job, he is able to play dark so very well, but when it comes to the ladies, he really lets his charisma shine through. The women of the story do fall fowl though, as the film concentrates on Dalton and Davi, the female roles are under-developed, so much so that Soto seems to just be there to move the plot further a few steps.

Maybe the whole head-to-head thing brought LTK down, after all who wants to see a Bond move without a full helping of Bond?
What do you think?

[Shaun Forever]

The treatment this film gets is criminal, it's such a journey, and a fantastic experience as a Bond fan.


What does it for me, is just after Bond has killed sanchez, he's standing bruised and battered, looks exhausted, yet is relieved he finally got his revenge, the music (also used earlier in the film, when Bond is examining the files Felix hid in the photo of della)adds to it brilliantly. Then Bond notices the lorry approaching, only to find it's Pam, and not a surviving thug.

To me that scene is all about relief, and exhaustion, brilliant, one of my favourite scenes in Bond history, and just adds more to the Bond VS Sanchez storyline, which you excellently described above.

[Pierce - Daniel]

I argree Dalton really is stunning here, i love the moment he breaks into Crest's bat with the simple ojective to kill Sanchez, that's it he wants it done there and then. He is really is a merchanry in that scene, very cold and ruthless. He'll stop at nothing. I love that.

Dalton's proformence really is comparable to Craig's very powerfull turn in CR

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

The treatment this film gets is criminal, it's such a journey, and a fantastic experience as a Bond fan.

For me LTK, is the most painful experience as a Bond fan that I could ever have, it's like it makes me cringe at every scene. It's the only 007 movie, that makes me feel shame of being a Bond fan- even more than any Brosnan movie-, and it contains almost all the things that I despise from action thrillers.

But then again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I respect yours.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

I argree Dalton really is stunning here, i love the moment he breaks into Crest's bat with the simple ojective to kill Sanchez, that's it he wants it done there and then. He is really is a merchanry in that scene, very cold and ruthless. He'll stop at nothing. I love that.

Dalton's proformence really is comparable to Craig's very powerfull turn in CR

... Only that Craig in CR shows much more different kinds of emotions, than just being angry almost all the time.

[Pierce - Daniel]

No Dalton is very soft and caring at times.
when he's on the boat with Pam, and she asks how many men he's got. He really shows a deep complexion of his character and his quest to get the job done.
Dalton is very good wit the ladies as well, I think out of all the Bond's he'd have the least trouble pulling.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

No Dalton is very soft and caring at times.
when he's on the boat with Pam, and she asks how many men he's got. He really shows a deep complexion of his character and his quest to get the job done.
Dalton is very good wit the ladies as well, I think out of all the Bond's he'd have the least trouble pulling.

Perhaps.

Nonetheless, Dalton doesn't seemed very talented in comedy, unlike Craig who showed in CR that he can display that too. Whereas Dalton doesn't show almost any comedy side to his character in LTK, while in TLD all the lines in that style seemed a little bit forced in the actor's delivery. And I really think that at least EON's Bond needs some good comic relief from time to time (and those moments coming from the main character, not from Q like in LTK).

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 23 May 2009 - 08:46 PM.

[Royal Dalton]

"I hope you don't snore, Q!"

[singleentendre]

LTK is one of those movies that gets better and better with every rewatch. Dalton is incredibly powerful in this movie. I feel that in TLD he was just getting used to the role, but here he really owns it.

The acting in this movie is great, save for Lupe at times. I might have preferred a more charismatic Felix, but that doesn't matter too much. The entire film, front to back, has a very epic feeling to it. Pam is a great Bond girl whose character is right at Bond's level, but it doesn't feel like the writers were trying too hard to accomplish that.

Dalton is compared to Craig a lot, but I think the two are very different in many ways. I love them both, but Dalton always had this aura of coolness surrounding him, especially in LTK.

It's the only 007 movie, that makes me feel shame of being a Bond fan- even more than any Brosnan movie-, and it contains almost all the things that I despise from action thrillers.

Really? That's interesting. LTK contains some of the stuff I love from action movies. The game of cat and mouse between hero and antagonist, a strong cast of supporting characters that can hold their own and a grand finale that demands and captures your attention.

[Pierce - Daniel]

The film does have a multi-layered feel to it, the plot is very well done. Sanchez has his own plot wit the drug dealers, Bond isn't too bothered to stop it (of course he does at the end), at the same time he has to avoid recapture from the Americans hense the stingers, but at the same time has to deal with Heller and Sanchez screwing him over.
That's Sanchez's story.

Bond is a simple one of revenge, he wants to kill Sanchez, end of. He's going after him. Dalton plays the character so well in the film. All the angst and hatred visable in him, at no point does he drop the ball. He's intense, and hard hitting. The plot is well done as he sets the seed for Sanchez's own destruction. He has him pick off his own men. It's smart and ruthless. Very well done imo.

The film falls fowl becasue of the comic trappings imo. You didn't need Monneypenny or Q (maybe why the Craig films have been an improvment of the Dalton movies), the TV Doctor wasn't needed, if they kept it to Bond's revenge and Sanchez's fall it would have been a steller film, but those elements make the film sagg slightly, and Lupe isn't developed enough, though Soto has to be one of the best Bond girls ever.
The comedy ruins the film, the fun action sequence do work well though and are alot of fun lke they should be like the bar fight, but the fighting is very real and harsh like it should be. Actually very brutual, similar to CR in that respect.
But the 2 major action sequences are AMAZING, end of. The scenes on Crest's yacht at the start are great, and the finale beggers beleif, I think it has to be one of the best actions pieces placed on screen. You can see it's Daltn in the action, it just adds to the enjoyment, knowing he's in the midst of danger.
Great film, but I think it fel fowl of the traditional Bond trappings (humour, Q, Monneypenny) to really be inventive. I do realy like it. Dalton's proformence is really stunning, the best word i can use to describe it.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

It's the only 007 movie, that makes me feel shame of being a Bond fan- even more than any Brosnan movie-, and it contains almost all the things that I despise from action thrillers.

Really? That's interesting. LTK contains some of the stuff I love from action movies. The game of cat and mouse between hero and antagonist, a strong cast of supporting characters that can hold their own and a grand finale that demands and captures your attention.

In a few words to explain my earlier statement, I would say that LTK, imo, is the EON's version of the eighties american action films, and that's the most tacky and unsuitable trend for Bond in my mind.

[Pierce - Daniel]

The 80s era has not been kind to film, I mean I do argree that LTK has aged worst then say OHMSS or FRWL. But part of the appeal is to lap up that setting and decade when you watch the film, after all the film has alot of fun moments in it and it captures you up in the moment.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

The comedy ruins the film, the fun action sequence do work well though and are alot of fun lke they should be like the bar fight, but the fighting is very real and harsh like it should be. Actually very brutual, similar to CR in that respect.

A fight scene you can have it in any film, but only in the Bond movies (or at least EON were pioneers on that) you can have fight sequences developed in exotic and glamorous locations; and the tacky environment for the bar fight in LTK was a big disappointment on this series's trademark.

[Pierce - Daniel]

The plot has to be one of the best and most multi-layered of all the Bond movies, it has depth, it isn't the simple beat by beat story. why the hate?

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

The plot has to be one of the best and most multi-layered of all the Bond movies, it has depth, it isn't the simple beat by beat story. why the hate?

I just disagree, 'cause I don't think the- very hype in the eighties- personal vendetta type of story could be considered 'multi-layered'.

And I would say more... even, as many would know I'm not such a big fan of QOS, but I think that movie is how it should have been made LTK, if a Bond movie have to deal with a vengeance theme for a plot; I prefer a 007 that at the end of the film decides that the best thing to do is act profesionally, instead of satisfy his lower instincts with a violent vendetta like Dalton's Bond.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 23 May 2009 - 11:01 PM.

[JimmyBond]

The comedy ruins the film, the fun action sequence do work well though and are alot of fun lke they should be like the bar fight, but the fighting is very real and harsh like it should be. Actually very brutual, similar to CR in that respect.

A fight scene you can have it in any film, but only in the Bond movies (or at least EON were pioneers on that) you can have fight sequences developed in exotic and glamorous locations; and the tacky environment for the bar fight in LTK was a big disappointment on this series's trademark.

What's wrong with Bond being in a mundane location once in a while? Glamour is out there, but only a small bit of the world is glamorous, the rest is rather dull and dreary.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

The comedy ruins the film, the fun action sequence do work well though and are alot of fun lke they should be like the bar fight, but the fighting is very real and harsh like it should be. Actually very brutual, similar to CR in that respect.

A fight scene you can have it in any film, but only in the Bond movies (or at least EON were pioneers on that) you can have fight sequences developed in exotic and glamorous locations; and the tacky environment for the bar fight in LTK was a big disappointment on this series's trademark.

Glamour is out there, but only a small bit of the world is glamorous, the rest is rather dull and dreary.

Of course. But that's exactly why I want to see a Bond movie, to see something different to what you usually encounter in the normal life.

So, you wonder "What's wrong with Bond being in a mundane location once in a while?" Well, it just break the fantasy, it doesn't fulfill the escapist dream.

And I have the same problem, only in a lesser degree, with QOS.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 23 May 2009 - 11:31 PM.

[JimmyBond]

So, you wonder "What's wrong with Bond being in a mundane location once in a while?" Well, it just break the fantasy, it doesn't fulfill the escapist dream.

And I have the same problem, only in a lesser degree, with QOS.

And that's why you and I will never agree on certain Bond films. If I want to see fantasy I'll watch the Roger Moore Bonds. I much prefer this more realistic approach seen in the Craig films (and also the Daltons).

[MovieMaestro]

I agree, Pierce Daniel. TLK and Heat are two of my all time favorite films, but I never thought of the villian in this way. Sanchez is one of, if not THE, most well-thought out villian, and Davi does a fantastic job of bringing this multi-faceted character to life. Horribly underrated, as is the film itself.

[Royal Dalton]

And I would say more... even, as many would know I'm not such a big fan of QOS, but I think that movie is how it should have been made LTK, if a Bond movie have to deal with a vengeance theme for a plot; I prefer a 007 that at the end of the film decides that the best thing to do is act profesionally, instead of satisfy his lower instincts with a violent vendetta like Dalton's Bond.

And yet Craig's Bond does take violent revenge on at least one character. And it's not at the beginning of the film, either.

So, how would you respond to someone who's about to chop your head off with a machete then? Ask him politely not to, or set fire to the bugger?

[triviachamp]

So, how would you respond to someone who's about to chop your head off with a machete then? Ask him politely not to, or set fire to the bugger?

Cheezy one liner?

[byline]

Nonetheless, Dalton doesn't seemed very talented in comedy, unlike Craig who showed in CR that he can display that too. Whereas Dalton doesn't show almost any comedy side to his character in LTK, while in TLD all the lines in that style seemed a little bit forced in the actor's delivery.

I disagree. One of my all-time favorite Bond lines is from "The Living Daylights," when Bond and Kara are escaping from the prison. She yelps, "We're free!" To which Bond replies, "Kara, we're inside a Russian airbase in the middle of Afghanistan." Priceless.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

So, you wonder "What's wrong with Bond being in a mundane location once in a while?" Well, it just break the fantasy, it doesn't fulfill the escapist dream.

And I have the same problem, only in a lesser degree, with QOS.

And that's why you and I will never agree on certain Bond films. If I want to see fantasy I'll watch the Roger Moore Bonds. I much prefer this more realistic approach seen in the Craig films (and also the Daltons).

All right.

Nonetheless, I'm pretty satisfied with the level of fantasy of TLD and CR. I don't necessarily need to go to the excess of some parts of the Moore era, to completely fulfill my need for escapism in a Bond movie. I think those movies are a good example of a right balance for the series, which is what I prefer for the franchise, not the extremes of fantasy of the Brosnan era or the extreme of realism of LTK or QOS (albeit, I think the former try to be realistic, but end up being unwantedly funny in the gorish bits)

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 24 May 2009 - 09:03 AM.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Nonetheless, Dalton doesn't seemed very talented in comedy, unlike Craig who showed in CR that he can display that too. Whereas Dalton doesn't show almost any comedy side to his character in LTK, while in TLD all the lines in that style seemed a little bit forced in the actor's delivery.

I disagree. One of my all-time favorite Bond lines is from "The Living Daylights," when Bond and Kara are escaping from the prison. She yelps, "We're free!" To which Bond replies, "Kara, we're inside a Russian airbase in the middle of Afghanistan." Priceless.

Yes, that line is good, no arguing about that. But Dalton's delivery sounds a little forced, and he seems way too angry and annoying, having in mind, that he's just correcting a simple and inoffensive Kara's sentence. However, I concede that in TLD at least, there's a right amount of comic relief from Bond in the script, unlike LTK.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

And I would say more... even, as many would know I'm not such a big fan of QOS, but I think that movie is how it should have been made LTK, if a Bond movie have to deal with a vengeance theme for a plot; I prefer a 007 that at the end of the film decides that the best thing to do is act profesionally, instead of satisfy his lower instincts with a violent vendetta like Dalton's Bond.

And yet Craig's Bond does take violent revenge on at least one character. And it's not at the beginning of the film, either.
When happened this?? Which was that character from whom Craig's Bond took violent revenge?? The only characters from which Bond might have had revenge from Vesper's death, will be Mr. White and Yusef, and he didn't kill any of them.

I can only think that you're referring to take revenge from Mathis'death on the Colonel of Police, but that was required for Bond to penetrate Perla De La Dunas looking for a member of the criminal organization Quantum, besides that wasn't a particular violent killing like the one from Dalton's Bond to Sanchez.

So, how would you respond to someone who's about to chop your head off with a machete then? Ask him politely not to, or set fire to the bugger?
... Is funny that you're making this question, 'cause wasn't Dominic Green the one that also try to do that with Bond??!!! And I think you should know, that Craig's 007 didn't respond to his aggression setting on fire Amalric's character , actually he didn't personally kill this villian

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 24 May 2009 - 08:13 AM.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

Dalton is a master of Harrison Ford-style dead-pan delivery. I'd rather have this kind of humour than the outlandish comedic moments of the later Moore films or the jaw-droppingly awful one-liners they gave poor Pierce. And really, how can anybody still doubt Dalton's capability of doing comedy well after his hilarious turn in Hot Fuzz? He's got some very funny moments in The Rocketeer too (Flash Gordon should not be mentioned, since the entire film is a joke that few of the actors seems to be in on).

I like LTK far more than Heat, but I think it's a fitting comparasion. I recently re-watched it with a friend, who thought it was the second-best Bond movie (after CR).

I've seen people here criticize the amount of money they spent on the film, but I actually think the smaller budget works in its favour, forcing the filmmakers to ditch really outlandish action scenes and focus more on an intriguing plot and characters, like From Russia With Love. It's an excellent film through and through IMO. I love the gritty style, the direction (Glen does his best job here by far), and Dalton's performance. He also looks much more fit he looks than he did in The Living Daylights, and is physically a far more believable Bond than Connery, Moore or Brosnan ever were.

So, how would you respond to someone who's about to chop your head off with a machete then? Ask him politely not to, or set fire to the bugger?

This is one of my favourite moments in the entire series. Dalton's acting is at its best as he crawls along the ground, exhausted and beat up. It's the kind of moment Moore or Brosnan could never have had.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Dalton is a master of Harrison Ford-style dead-pan delivery. I'd rather have this kind of humour than the outlandish comedic moments of the later Moore films or the jaw-droppingly awful one-liners they gave poor Pierce.

While I admit that IMO Dalton is a better Bond than Brosnan (actually, I think even Lazenby is better than Pierce as 007). I can't be really satisfied with a "master of Harrison Ford-style dead-pan delivery" playing our most beloved british secret agent. I mean, there's a reason why Ford is so suitable for playing american action heroes, and not british ones.

[singleentendre]

I'm going to preface this post saying I love all the Bond, including Daniel Craig who I think has done a phenomenal job as James Bond...

But, I feel like Dalton is more like James Bond in LTK than Craig was in either of his two films thus far. I don't see how LTK can be labeled as a cliché action film when Quantum of Solace was about as cliché as you can get with action films today, with many people comparing Craig's Bond to Bourne. I'm not a QoS basher, I love the film, but to be fair LTK is much more a unique film than QoS, at least in my opinion.

[Pierce - Daniel]

Dalton is fantastic in LTk, it's by far his film but Davi is great. I think Dalton is by far the nest actor to play Bond and he used those skills in LTK to play the revenge crazed Bond.
great story, great villain, fantastic plot. Why complain?
Dalton is amazing, he's acting is fantasic even when he's not the central focus in the frame.
He's very method.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Quantum of Solace was about as cliché as you can get with action films today, with many people comparing Craig's Bond to Bourne.

That's true

What can I say??!!! I agree with this. It just happened that I prefer the current trend of action film than the one from the eighties, 'cause I think this style is less unsuitable to EON's Bond sophistication. However, I'm not a fan of either of those.