192 replies to this topic

[volante]

Fleming's Bond was right for for his times.

People and Spy's just don't interact like that these days.

The Bond franchise has to move with the times.

Each film keeps up the Bond tradition of being bang up to date on its subject matter.
Naturally these date but, Connery still has the presence to be believable after 26 years.

The villians don't all have scars or cats, most of them sit at the heart of power in our current establishments.

Bond does what he does best, go out and kill the bad guy who works for the other side

[DR76]

Well, for the very simple reason. MI6/Her Majesty's Service is a SECRET Service. It just makes no sense that in the past three Bond films 'M' is literally everywhere. I mean, come on...a good secret service-director needs to run the entire 00-section, not only 007???

This argument has not convinced me that Dench deserves more criticism than Brown or Lee. Sorry, but I'm just not buying it, considering that all of the Ms have appeared outside of the U.K. If you want to blame someone, blame Roald Dahl for allowing M to appear outside of the MI6 office for the first time. Or blame Christopher Wood for allowing both M and the Defense Minister to openly walk around Venice in "MOONRAKER".

[The Shark]

Well, for the very simple reason. MI6/Her Majesty's Service is a SECRET Service. It just makes no sense that in the past three Bond films 'M' is literally everywhere. I mean, come on...a good secret service-director needs to run the entire 00-section, not only 007???

This argument has not convinced me that Dench deserves more criticism than Brown or Lee. Sorry, but I'm just not buying it, considering that all of the Ms have appeared outside of the U.K. If you want to blame someone, blame Roald Dahl for allowing M to appear outside of the MI6 office for the first time. Or blame Christopher Wood for allowing both M and the Defense Minister to openly walk around Venice in "MOONRAKER".

At least they weren't constantly heading off in to the field at the last minute to bring in their insubordinate agent. When M appears there's an undeniable feeling from Bond and the audience that "Damn it! Not again. Mother's here. Can't she stay at home and knit Bond's ties and scarves?"

And the constant use of trust and endless traitors and revenge plot lines is growing tiresome two. Being a traitor is probably MI6's requirements on your CV now.

[tdalton]

And the constant use of trust and endless traitors and revenge plot lines is growing tiresome two. Being a traitor is probably MI6's requirements on your CV now.

Agreed. It's starting to become a bit like the Mission: Impossible franchise now. I've long said that the best way for Ethan Hunt and the rest of IMF would be to simply just shut down their operations since all of the villains more or less came from their ranks anyway.

I will say, though, that the only way that I would support another traitor storyline in a near-future Bond film would be if they went down the route of having another rogue-00 Agent. I think that if they treated that storyline a bit more seriously than they did in GE, and even made the rogue agent something of a sympathetic character (at least in terms of the fact the audience can understand their motivations for going rogue rather than simply to serve the storyline) and one that Bond could find himself having reservations about going after. That could be an interesting direction to go, especially in the "we have people everywhere" climate that Quantum has created.

[DR76]

At least they weren't constantly heading off in to the field at the last minute to bring in their insubordinate agent. When M appears there's an undeniable feeling from Bond and the audience that "Damn it! Not again. Mother's here. Can't she stay at home and knit Bond's ties and scarves?"

"Can't she stay at home and knit Bond's ties and scarves?"

Oh . . . my . . . God! Is this what these complaints regarding Judi Dench really about? Because she is a woman, instead of a man? What? You can't stand the idea of a female authority figure tearing one into Bond, when he screws up? Is that what are you really complaining about? That because she is a woman, M has no business acting like an authority figure at Bond, whether she is in London or not? You don't mind M yelling at Bond . . . when the character is being portrayed by an actor?

[Safari Suit]

[The Shark]

At least they weren't constantly heading off in to the field at the last minute to bring in their insubordinate agent. When M appears there's an undeniable feeling from Bond and the audience that "Damn it! Not again. Mother's here. Can't she stay at home and knit Bond's ties and scarves?"

"Can't she stay at home and knit Bond's ties and scarves?"

Oh . . . my . . . God! Is this what these complaints regarding Judi Dench really about? Because she is a woman, instead of a man? What? You can't stand the idea of a female authority figure tearing one into Bond, when he screws up? Is that what are you really complaining about? That because she is a woman, M has no business acting like an authority figure at Bond, whether she is in London or not? You don't mind M yelling at Bond . . . when the character is being portrayed by an actor?

No, far from. I'm simply saying that Bond wouldn't, and that's the impression I get from Craig. After all he's an anachronistic sexist at heart.

However, I found Lee and Fleming's M were much more level headed and reasoned when it came to dealing with Bond, whereas Dench's M is either rambling on about some pyschobabble, forming a motherly relationship with Bond, scathingly tearing him up, moaning about "trust", trusting him again, then not trusting him, then following him into the field, then a traitor appears etc...

I'm not a sexist, but the pre-menstrual comparison does come to mind....

[Sniperscope]

At least they weren't constantly heading off in to the field at the last minute to bring in their insubordinate agent. When M appears there's an undeniable feeling from Bond and the audience that "Damn it! Not again. Mother's here. Can't she stay at home and knit Bond's ties and scarves?"

"Can't she stay at home and knit Bond's ties and scarves?"

Oh . . . my . . . God! Is this what these complaints regarding Judi Dench really about? Because she is a woman, instead of a man? What? You can't stand the idea of a female authority figure tearing one into Bond, when he screws up? Is that what are you really complaining about? That because she is a woman, M has no business acting like an authority figure at Bond, whether she is in London or not? You don't mind M yelling at Bond . . . when the character is being portrayed by an actor?

No, far from. I'm simply saying that Bond wouldn't, and that's the impression I get from Craig. After all he's an anachronistic sexist at heart.

However, I found Lee and Fleming's M were much more level headed and reasoned when it came to dealing with Bond, whereas Dench's M is either rambling on about some pyschobabble, forming a motherly relationship with Bond, scathingly tearing him up, moaning about "trust", trusting him again, then not trusting him, then following him into the field, then a traitor appears etc...

I'm not a sexist, but the pre-menstrual comparison does come to mind....

"I'm not sexist, but..." always a bad line to use Shark when you did put up the comment about M getting on with her knitting! How does a traitor appearing reflect on M? And as for the PMS comment - come on Shark! Why does the behaviour of a woman need to be reduced to this trite stuff?! I think you're just looking for a "bite" with a line like that. Just accept this as her character. She does things her own way and being a woman has very little to do with it.

M's role in QoS is not at all out of character for Dench's M, as has been established over the last 6 films. She's a more hands-on kind of a boss and there is no reason at all that she needs to be the same as her predecessors - she's more Jim Kirk than Jean-Luc Picard.
She shut down Bond's comments in GE very smartly when he mentioned the previous M which may well suggest she is not willing to do things the way they have "traditionally" been done.

Actually take a look at M's behaviour in the TB novel. Bond comments: "Has he old man gone off his rocker?" and "He's absolutely nuts" when M demands Bond check into Shrublands.
Now, if M was a woman at this point would you say, "here she is bringing all her "psychobabble" to her work and having a "motherly relationship" with OO7"?
When a male M does something unusual there is no derisive PMS jokes from us, no one says maybe he should stick to sailing a boat or mending a sail!
Actually the male M has probably always been a kind of distant father-figure for Bond; Moneypenny herself hints at such a relationship with, "You know he thinks the world of you - or perhaps you don't" when Bond is having a bit of a childish tantrum.

In terms of cinema I would think it is more desirable to have the character of M in the scene rather than chatting to Bond over the phone. It increases not only the dramatic exposure for an actor the calibre of Dame Judi (which I'm sure is a consideration foremost on the minds of Dench's agent, Broccoli and Wilson) but it also massively improves the acting quality and watchability of a scene. From a purely filmic point of view consider in CR how static the scenes between Bond and M on the phone were. I think that's a production and direction reality that you need to consider too.

It would be good if a female fan could comment on Dench's M...
I wonder (and this is only my thought here) if female fans might rather like Dench coming along and putting Bond in his place - in the same way that many male viewers rather like Bond being quite dominant with the women around him. Perhaps this gives the female audience a kind of "control" over Bond and increases their attraction to him? Just thinking aloud...

BTW - I really don't see any of this "anachronistic sexist at heart" stuff from Craig's Bond at all. In all respects he treats women extremely equally in both of his films. I don't quite know what you're seeing in Craig's performance that I'm not...

Edited by Sniperscope, 28 November 2009 - 08:37 AM.

[volante]

Craig's Bond is motivated by his duty.

He likes to think of M as his Mother.

[The Shark]

"I'm not sexist, but..." always a bad line to use Shark when you did put up the comment about M getting on with her knitting! dizzy.gif

Hey I'm not! It's just hard trying to one minute step in Fleming's shoes (who obviously was quite sexist) and my own (who's not). Don't shoot me! I support feminism!

How does a traitor appearing reflect on M? And as for the PMS comment - come on Shark! Why does the behaviour of a woman need to be reduced to this trite stuff?! I think you're just looking for a "bite" with a line like that. Just accept this as her character. She does things her own way and being a woman has very little to do with it.

I see what you're saying. What I mean is that it reflects on her own incompetence as an MI6 boss, and not just within Craig era - ever since P&W came on board in TWINE. There's always either an emotional soap-drama sub-plot or undercurrent, or a traitor in the midst. It makes MI6 look like a bunch of idiots.

M's role in QoS is not at all out of character for Dench's M, as has been established over the last 6 films. She's a more hands-on kind of a boss and there is no reason at all that she needs to be the same as her predecessors - she's more Jim Kirk than Jean-Luc Picard.

She doesn't need to be the same as her predecessors, she needs to be how Fleming envisioned him/her.

She shut down Bond's comments in GE very smartly when he mentioned the previous M which may well suggest she is not willing to do things the way they have "traditionally" been done.

Good, I actually proffered that attitude to what we've had since MI6. We need more of the stern, prudish, admiral, and less of the surragte mother, no matter what gender the character is.

Actually take a look at M's behaviour in the TB novel. Bond comments: "Has he old man gone off his rocker?" and "He's absolutely nuts" when M demands Bond check into Shrublands.

Now, if M was a woman at this point would you say, "here she is bringing all her "psychobabble" to her work and having a "motherly relationship" with OO7"?
When a male M does something unusual there is no derisive PMS jokes from us, no one says maybe he should stick to sailing a boat or mending a sail!

No, but Bond should, sounds like something Fleming's Bond might say about his boring old ex-Admiral M. I would have no problem with that, as that is how the character should be.

Actually the male M has probably always been a kind of distant father-figure for Bond; Moneypenny herself hints at such a relationship with, "You know he thinks the world of you - or perhaps you don't" when Bond is having a bit of a childish tantrum.

Yep, but the difference is that it was a stern man-to-man relationship, down to business, straight to the point, no "can I trust you", "when was the last time you slept", or "arrogance and self-awareness seldom hand in hand" Oprah style psych-babble.

In terms of cinema I would think it is more desirable to have the character of M in the scene rather than chatting to Bond over the phone. It increases not only the dramatic exposure for an actor the calibre of Dame Judi (which I'm sure is a consideration foremost on the minds of Dench's agent, Broccoli and Wilson) but it also massively improves the acting quality and watchability of a scene. From a purely filmic point of view consider in CR how static the scenes between Bond and M on the phone were. I think that's a production and direction reality that you need to consider too.

I agree and understand. I'd just cast and actor who doesn't need to have all of these "special" scenes because he's such an acclaimed Thespian. M's scenes should take up as little screen-time as possible in my opinion.

It would be good if a female fan could comment on Dench's M...
I wonder (and this is only my thought here) if female fans might rather like Dench coming along and putting Bond in his place - in the same way that many male viewers rather like Bond being quite dominant with the women around him. Perhaps this gives the female audience a kind of "control" over Bond and increases their attraction to him? Just thinking aloud... wink.gif

Not sure. Bond's been emasculated enough in my opinion... Wait. Sorry I'm not a female.

BTW - I really don't see any of this "anachronistic sexist at heart" stuff from Craig's Bond at all. In all respects he treats women extremely equally in both of his films. I don't quite know what you're seeing in Craig's performance that I'm not...

Well he's Fleming's Bond isn't he? Or at least he should be since that's what we've been told. At least the Vesper affair should help restored the sexist bastard we know and love, who'll slap women for information, and leave them when they get too much.

I'd hate Fleming's Bond in real life, and that's the point. He should be risky and flawed as a character, who smokes, and behaves in a way most of us would disapprove, but might secretly wish we could, in a world without consequences. A sort of secret indulgence, a form of escapism.

If you take that away, he becomes far too ordinary and squeaky clean. Bond SHOULD be a quintessential Byronic hero. And Craig is a damn fine enough actor to pull that off, since he personally likes to show a character's flaws, warts and all. Just like you can't take away Sherlock Holme's Opium addiction, it's a crucial sordid aspect of the character. And makes him more interesting in my opinion.

Craig's Bond is motivated by his duty.

He likes to think of M as his Mother.

Aren't those just two quotes from the film.

Edited by The Shark, 28 November 2009 - 09:03 PM.

[s.a.s. Malko]

I think, the biggest difference is that Fleming´s Bond is written in the 50´s and Broccoli´s Bond had to be different in every decade because of the taste of the viewers. If there were still Fleming-Novels from the late 60´s and 70´s, who knows which direction he would have taken (gritty and realistic like John Le Carre or over the top like something Matthew Reilly writes today). The overall problem with Movies today is: they don´t have writers like Roald Dahl anymore (that´s an interesting little nothing that you´re almost wearing), and like mentioned above the PG-13 rating, that with it´s greed is slowly starting to kill the best franchises, like Terminator etc. And btw, now that I have seen a picture with the new director of the MI6, I´m even more for Ciaran Hinds as the next M. I want a tough guy as M, someone Bond respects not only because of his rank.

[The Shark]

Roald Dahl anymore (that´s an interesting little nothing that you´re almost wearing)

Wasn't that Tom Mankiewicz (DAF? I thought Roald Dahl wrote YOLT.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Roald Dahl anymore (that´s an interesting little nothing that you´re almost wearing)

Wasn't that Tom Mankiewicz (DAF? I thought Roald Dahl wrote YOLT.

You're right; Roald Dahl wrote the horribly cliched "What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this?"