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'Ian Fleming's Bond vs. Broccoli's Bond': a review


192 replies to this topic

#121 Bondian

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 04:37 AM

That is not nice of you. If you think I want to proof my vanity or that I want to be 'a better Bond fan than you are' by posting the review, than you are talking complete utter nonsense. This topic was actually my first post since YEARS. I'm not active on forums at all! I just felt to give this review because I genuinaly think QOS was not that good.

I wasn't just basing it on this thread, but on several you've started over at the MI6 forums. Like the one where you started a poll comparing QOS' opening sequence with three others, all of which had been chosen for a very specific reason: to skew the results against QOS.


Arguments on that site please keep on that site. Hard enough to keep track of what's going on here never mind elsewhere.

Well said old chap. Fancy a pint, old bean? B)

#122 JimmyBond

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 07:45 AM

I'll take you up on that offer Bondian B)

#123 Gustav Graves

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 03:19 PM

That is not nice of you. If you think I want to proof my vanity or that I want to be 'a better Bond fan than you are' by posting the review, than you are talking complete utter nonsense. This topic was actually my first post since YEARS. I'm not active on forums at all! I just felt to give this review because I genuinaly think QOS was not that good.

I wasn't just basing it on this thread, but on several you've started over at the MI6 forums. Like the one where you started a poll comparing QOS' opening sequence with three others, all of which had been chosen for a very specific reason: to skew the results against QOS.


And I have said there that the opening sequence from QOS is better and nicer to watch than the black-and-white sequence from CR. Read carefully okay? The opening sequence was one of the positive things of the film.

I think you indirectly portray me as a QOS-basher. Well, you're so wrong then.

#124 byline

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 04:12 PM

And the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round. . . .

Edited by byline, 03 June 2009 - 06:50 PM.


#125 Jim

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 05:54 PM

Unsure which one of them to kill.

It'll probably be both.

#126 Zorin Industries

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 07:34 PM

And the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round. . . .

And the SOLACE haters go "quickfire edit - quickfire edit"....

#127 Jim

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 07:38 PM

And it goes from objectivity to subjectivity to personality in the beat of a hummingbird's wing - sic transit gloria internet.

#128 dee-bee-five

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 08:33 PM

So, I think Vesper was better than Camille. But I also think that 'Casino Royale' still is miles better than 'Quantum of Solace'. It has everything: Good brand-new original and believable action, a great plot from Fleming's novel, memorable casino scenes, believable romance and drama, terrific sets and locations that remind us of OHMSS, the most complicated Bond girl since OHMSS, Hotel Splendide, the majestic Casino Royale and off course that unforgettable torture scene in which both Bond and Le Chiffre shine like, like hell.


:tdown:

On its own merits, QUANTUM OF SOLACE is all very good and fine (if something of a pain in the B) in parts), but CASINO ROYALE is a superior Bond film and also a superior film. Yes, considerably.



I, of course, disagree. Casino Royale is a brilliant Bond film. My second fave, just ahead of OHMSS. But QoS is my favourite because, for me, it is Fleming's Bond as I read him. It's also, again for me, the best directed of the whole series. I've been watching these films and reading the Fleming books for nigh on 40 years. Not that that makes me a superior Bond fan you understand. It's all subjective, my dear boy, all subjective... :tdown:

#129 Zorin Industries

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 08:38 PM

Sic transit gloria internet.

I think I had to sing that at school...

#130 Loomis

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 08:57 PM

QoS is my favourite because, for me, it is Fleming's Bond as I read him.


I can certainly see that. I too see a lot of Fleming's Bond as I read him (i.e. a tough, no-nonsense, stiff-upper-lip Brit very much of the old school who's nonetheless sitting on a lot of hurt and repression) when I'm watching QoS. Now, I suspect that that's due rather more to Craig's superb and at-times-exquisitely-subtle performance than to the way the character is actually written in the script. In other words, I (perhaps wrongly) give much more credit to Craig for the "Fleming" in QoS than I do to Broccoli, Wilson, Purvis, Wade, Haggis, Forster and co. But no matter. The "Fleming" is there, and is much appreciated.

I'm planning on giving my QoS Blu-ray a spin quite soon. I gather that it really shines on that format.

#131 dee-bee-five

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 09:02 PM

Sic transit gloria internet.

I think I had to sing that at school...


You got off lightly then. We had to do it in baggy shorts. In the rain. In winter...


I'm planning on giving my QoS Blu-ray a spin quite soon. I gather that it really shines on that format.



It does. But then all the Bond Blu Rays glitter!

#132 Jim

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 09:03 PM

Sic transit gloria internet.

I think I had to sing that at school...


You got off lightly then. We had to do it in baggy shorts. In the rain. In winter...


Not even going to dare ask what happened when you forgot your kit.

#133 dee-bee-five

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 09:09 PM

Sic transit gloria internet.

I think I had to sing that at school...


You got off lightly then. We had to do it in baggy shorts. In the rain. In winter...


Not even going to dare ask what happened when you forgot your kit.


The sports master used to hose us down with cold water. Actually, he used to do that whether we'd got our kit or not. And rub himself in an odd manner. It was years before I realised he wasn't just checking his pockets to see where his tube of Polo Mints had rolled to...

#134 Zorin Industries

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 09:21 AM

Sic transit gloria internet.

I think I had to sing that at school...


You got off lightly then. We had to do it in baggy shorts. In the rain. In winter...


Not even going to dare ask what happened when you forgot your kit.


The sports master used to hose us down with cold water. Actually, he used to do that whether we'd got our kit or not. And rub himself in an odd manner. It was years before I realised he wasn't just checking his pockets to see where his tube of Polo Mints had rolled to...

And your problem is...?

#135 dee-bee-five

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 12:53 PM

Sic transit gloria internet.

I think I had to sing that at school...


You got off lightly then. We had to do it in baggy shorts. In the rain. In winter...


Not even going to dare ask what happened when you forgot your kit.


The sports master used to hose us down with cold water. Actually, he used to do that whether we'd got our kit or not. And rub himself in an odd manner. It was years before I realised he wasn't just checking his pockets to see where his tube of Polo Mints had rolled to...

And your problem is...?


The tracksuit he wore. Purple with vivid yellow stripes. Perfectly ghastly.

#136 Gustav Graves

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 04:18 PM

So, I think Vesper was better than Camille. But I also think that 'Casino Royale' still is miles better than 'Quantum of Solace'. It has everything: Good brand-new original and believable action, a great plot from Fleming's novel, memorable casino scenes, believable romance and drama, terrific sets and locations that remind us of OHMSS, the most complicated Bond girl since OHMSS, Hotel Splendide, the majestic Casino Royale and off course that unforgettable torture scene in which both Bond and Le Chiffre shine like, like hell.


:tdown:

On its own merits, QUANTUM OF SOLACE is all very good and fine (if something of a pain in the B) in parts), but CASINO ROYALE is a superior Bond film and also a superior film. Yes, considerably.



I, of course, disagree. Casino Royale is a brilliant Bond film. My second fave, just ahead of OHMSS.



That's true yeah :tdown:. Allthough I do think OHMSS is still the best Bond film ever, followed by FRWL and then CR. I'll add TB and TLD to complete my TOP 5.

So CR is not my 2nd favourite, but my 3rd favourite.

#137 Zorin Industries

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 05:40 PM

Sic transit gloria internet.

I think I had to sing that at school...


You got off lightly then. We had to do it in baggy shorts. In the rain. In winter...


Not even going to dare ask what happened when you forgot your kit.


The sports master used to hose us down with cold water. Actually, he used to do that whether we'd got our kit or not. And rub himself in an odd manner. It was years before I realised he wasn't just checking his pockets to see where his tube of Polo Mints had rolled to...

And your problem is...?


The tracksuit he wore. Purple with vivid yellow stripes. Perfectly ghastly.

Now THAT is child abuse!

#138 dee-bee-five

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 07:46 PM

So, I think Vesper was better than Camille. But I also think that 'Casino Royale' still is miles better than 'Quantum of Solace'. It has everything: Good brand-new original and believable action, a great plot from Fleming's novel, memorable casino scenes, believable romance and drama, terrific sets and locations that remind us of OHMSS, the most complicated Bond girl since OHMSS, Hotel Splendide, the majestic Casino Royale and off course that unforgettable torture scene in which both Bond and Le Chiffre shine like, like hell.


:tdown:

On its own merits, QUANTUM OF SOLACE is all very good and fine (if something of a pain in the B) in parts), but CASINO ROYALE is a superior Bond film and also a superior film. Yes, considerably.



I, of course, disagree. Casino Royale is a brilliant Bond film. My second fave, just ahead of OHMSS.



That's true yeah :tdown:. Allthough I do think OHMSS is still the best Bond film ever, followed by FRWL and then CR. I'll add TB and TLD to complete my TOP 5.

So CR is not my 2nd favourite, but my 3rd favourite.


I notice you edited out the part of my post that put QoS at the top of my list. Funny that... :)

#139 Gustav Graves

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 01:36 AM

But you said CR was your 2nd favourite, just ahead of OHMSS. And then QOS your favourite among ALL 22 official Bond films??

#140 00Twelve

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 02:25 AM

But you said CR was your 2nd favourite, just ahead of OHMSS. And then QOS your favourite among ALL 22 official Bond films??


Casino Royale is a brilliant Bond film. My second fave, just ahead of OHMSS. But QoS is my favourite because, for me, it is Fleming's Bond as I read him. It's also, again for me, the best directed of the whole series. I've been watching these films and reading the Fleming books for nigh on 40 years. Not that that makes me a superior Bond fan you understand. It's all subjective, my dear boy, all subjective... B)

Looks to be that way, yeah.

#141 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 02:32 AM

Casino Royale is a brilliant Bond film. My second fave, just ahead of OHMSS. But QoS is my favourite because, for me, it is Fleming's Bond as I read him. It's also, again for me, the best directed of the whole series. I've been watching these films and reading the Fleming books for nigh on 40 years. That makes me a superior Bond fan you understand. B)

Looks to be that way, yeah.

Thirded. :tdown:

#142 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 12:45 AM

Arguments on that site please keep on that site. Hard enough to keep track of what's going on here never mind elsewhere.

I understand that, but having read those arguments elsewhere, it's difficult not to see them showing through in this one. Unless you think people can somehow abandon their prejudices from one site and adopt them for another. The fact that I've done it here only proves that Graves has done it as well.

#143 Jim

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:07 AM

Arguments on that site please keep on that site. Hard enough to keep track of what's going on here never mind elsewhere.

I understand that, but having read those arguments elsewhere, it's difficult not to see them showing through in this one. Unless you think people can somehow abandon their prejudices from one site and adopt them for another. The fact that I've done it here only proves that Graves has done it as well.


Try.

#144 s.a.s. Malko

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 12:29 PM

I have to agree with the title of this thread, but I think we like the bad movies to, because we are Bond-Fans!!! And about Quantum: I love the title, really like the movie which I think is one of the best-directed and cut Bond-Films ever, but have to agree with Gustav Graves that it was a bit to short. The Fleming-Story behind the title should have been mentioned somewhere and a little more screentime for Fields and her killing would have been perfect. Besides that I have to say that the killing with the knive and the look on Daniel Craig´s Face was one of the finest Bond-Moments of the last 30 Years.

#145 Loomis

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 06:46 PM

The whole "Mathis in the dumpster" thing is beginning to just crack me up.

I mean, seriously, what else would one have Bond do??

Maybe slowly close his eyes, or grip his dead shoulder to remind the audience that Bond Cares And Will Have Revenge™, or cradle him until daybreak, or maybe make a special trip just to bury him somewhere? Maybe utter one of those poignant, witty and entirely relevant epithets like, "No more problems..."? :tdown:

Or just leave him in the damn street, I suppose. But respectfully, with his eyes and mouth closed and with his hands across his chest. Yes, that would be realistic.

Guys, I love some of the Moore era trademarks, too, but this ain't one. And I have to say that it's ridiculous to insinuate that Bond didn't give a B) about Mathis when he clearly emoted otherwise in several different shots. Camille even mentioned how cold it seemed to toss Mathis in a bed of trash bags, and Bond (with remorse, praise the Lord!) gave his perfectly logical reasoning.


Blunted logical reasoning if I may say so. I didn't insinuate that Bond didn't give a :tdown: about Mathis. But the LEAST thing screenplay writers could have done, was giving Bond some extra lines that at least EXPLAIN his reasoning. What about this:

"Camille? This is getting completely out of hand. I need to contact 'M' straight away. Fields could be in real danger now." *Bond is sighing, sounding desperate* Mathis.....I need to get in touch with your wife..... :) . Camille?? Let's go immediately!" *Bond and Camille are dragging Mathis' body to a little barn*

If something like that would have been written in the screenplay, it would have been much more acceptable. It could have been a bit more like Bond in FRWL when he faces the death body of Kerim Bey! With the current scene of Bond throwing Mathis in the dumbster, Bond doesn't show ANY logic at all! It's....it's so damn un-Bondian for me. Even Timothy Dalton's Bond in LTK would not have done that.

No. Working the scene like that is lazy, obvious, on the nose and pandering to those that need everything spelt out for them


But there is quite a bit of "on the nose" dialogue in QUANTUM OF SOLACE.

Here's an example: when Bond and Camille arrive at the posh hotel in La Paz and Bond is given a note reading "RUN!", the hotel worker informs Bond that the note is "from your wife, the English lady", as though the viewer really needs to have it spelled out in black and white that he's referring to Fields. It's inconceivable that he'd have said "your wife, the English lady" - he'd simply have said "your wife". He knows he's talking to an Englishman. Also, does he think that Bond has more than one wife and that he needs to narrow it down? I mean, if you were manning a reception desk and a Japanese guest came in, would you refer to his missus as "your wife, the Japanese lady"? Of course you wouldn't, and if you did it would seem as though you were taking the piss.

It's a very, very minor gripe, and I do feel a bit tragic even pointing it out, but I don't believe it's the case that QUANTUM OF SOLACE has perfect dialogue. Indeed, I think it has its share of only-there-for-the-sake-of-exposition-to-dumb-audience-members lines.

#146 dee-bee-five

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 06:55 PM

But you said CR was your 2nd favourite, just ahead of OHMSS. And then QOS your favourite among ALL 22 official Bond films??


Yes. It's not that difficult to understand, is it? After nearly forty years of reading and re-reading the Fleming books, of watching and re-watching the Eon series and of visiting the sets and knowing some of the people involved in the series ( B) ), QoS is my favorite Bond film, CR is second and OHMSS third.


But you said CR was your 2nd favourite, just ahead of OHMSS. And then QOS your favourite among ALL 22 official Bond films??


Casino Royale is a brilliant Bond film. My second fave, just ahead of OHMSS. But QoS is my favourite because, for me, it is Fleming's Bond as I read him. It's also, again for me, the best directed of the whole series. I've been watching these films and reading the Fleming books for nigh on 40 years. Not that that makes me a superior Bond fan you understand. It's all subjective, my dear boy, all subjective... :tdown:

Looks to be that way, yeah.


Naughty boy, altering my text that way! :tdown:

#147 byline

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 06:56 PM

Here's an example: when Bond and Camille arrive at the posh hotel in La Paz and Bond is given a note reading "RUN!", the hotel worker informs Bond that the note is "from your wife, the English lady", as though the viewer really needs to have it spelled out in black and white that he's referring to Fields.

Actually, I thought the point of that line was not to explain to us, the audience, who he was talking about, but resulted more from a bit of nervousness on the part of the desk employee. It happens very quickly, but it seems to me he says "from your wife," then glances at Camille, then back at Bond and adds, "the English lady." In other words, not fully understanding the relationship between Bond and Camille, but knowing there's something going on there and having assumed that Fields was Bond's wife, he's trying to avoid a verbal blunder and so tries to cover his first comment with the second one.

Edited by byline, 09 June 2009 - 07:00 PM.


#148 dee-bee-five

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:02 PM

Here's an example: when Bond and Camille arrive at the posh hotel in La Paz and Bond is given a note reading "RUN!", the hotel worker informs Bond that the note is "from your wife, the English lady", as though the viewer really needs to have it spelled out in black and white that he's referring to Fields.

Actually, I thought the point of that line was not to explain to us, the audience, who he was talking about, but resulted more from a bit of nervousness on the part of the desk employee. It happens very quickly, but it seems to me he says "from your wife," then glances at Camille, then back at Bond and adds, "the English lady." In other words, not fully understanding the relationship between Bond and Camille, but knowing there's something going on there and having assumed that Fields was Bond's wife, he's trying to avoid a verbal blunder and so tries to cover his first comment with the second one.



That's how I read the scene, too.

#149 Loomis

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:49 PM

I stand corrected.

#150 dee-bee-five

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:57 PM

I stand corrected.


But that doesn't negate your point that there is some on-the-nose dialogue in QoS. That's undeniable. But it's the curse of commercial writing, I'm afraid. Still, there's naked exposition in even the most critically-acclaimed films, too.