76 replies to this topic

[byline]

I'm personally on the side that the boat chase isn't nearly as bad as some people make it out to be - it's a serviceable action sequence, its just too chaotic. It's symptomatic of the general editing problem Quantum suffers from. That payoff should be awesome, and prompt that long "ohhhhh" from the audience when it happens. I saw the film 4 times in theatres, with varying crowds, and it never did - mostly because people were whispering "how did he do that?"

True enough. That seems to be an issue in all the action scenes (at the end of the car chase, when the car careens off the edge of the cliff and crashes, during the plane chase, when the jet veers off and crashes into a mountainside, etc.). It does seem that we don't get those really satisfying (odd choice of words, eh?) explosions to punctuate the scene and make us go, "Oooohhhhh!"

Then again, I wonder if that was a stylistic choice. Most of the time, you really wouldn't get that big bang; as the "MythBusters" guys (and gal) tell us again and again, those explosions are just for show, Hollywood theatrics that wouldn't be the case in a real explosion. So maybe that's part of what we're talking about in terms of payoff. It's not only the pacing/editing of a scene, but also how the pyrotechnics are employed (or not).

[Publius]

This moment is the action movie equivalent to when they do "science stuff" in Star Trek and we just take them at their word for the sake of enjoyment. I do wish the editing had been clearer, but given that it's one of the few (hell, probably the only) moments I had little idea what just happened and of how little importance it is what specific move Bond actually pulled, it really doesn't bother me. Yes, could and should have been handled better, but still good in spite of that.

[MajorB]

MattofSteel, I've been on board (ha!!) with basically all your comments in this post. Excellent observations.

As far as I can remember, the boat flip is the first moment in any Bond film in which a key piece of action is literally inexplicable from what's presented onscreen. I don't mean it doesn't make sense or isn't plausible. I mean you literally can't tell what is supposed to have happened, even after a frame-by-frame examination. It's the kind of thing you might expect from a low-budget film that's trying to fake its way through a scene by implying action that would cost too much to shoot. But for a Bond film, it's pretty damn startling. Regardless of what folks my think of Forster's work in general on this film (and I have sharply mixed feelings), I'd say a lapse like that is just plain bad.

Edited by MajorB, 05 June 2009 - 04:47 PM.

[00Twelve]

I've noticed something new here, and I doubt even MattofSteel can prove me wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt.

When the zodiac runs up on Bond's boat, the driver seems to me to be trying to steer and rock the zodiac left and right, trying to slide it down off Bond's boat. After Bond throws the hook over and the thug goes for it, it really appears that the pilot has succeeded in getting the momentum going to slide down on the left side of Bond's boat. When the boat begins to slide down, the hook catches and pulls taut (evidenced by the rope slack being pulled from above Bond's boat, which means the zodiac is what's pulling it away) and then BOOM. Flip. The rope, incidentally, is attached to Bond's boat (it's certainly not attached to anything else, like an anchor). The direction that the zodiac's nose is pointed when it launches is to the left, which only supports this theory.

It works very well for me, and I've yet to see how it can be physically rebuffed.

I say we call the Mythbusters to know for sure.

[byline]

I've noticed something new here, and I doubt even MattofSteel can prove me wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt.

When the zodiac runs up on Bond's boat, the driver seems to me to be trying to steer and rock the zodiac left and right, trying to slide it down off Bond's boat. After Bond throws the hook over and the thug goes for it, it really appears that the pilot has succeeded in getting the momentum going to slide down on the left side of Bond's boat. When the boat begins to slide down, the hook catches and pulls taut (evidenced by the rope slack being pulled from above Bond's boat, which means the zodiac is what's pulling it away) and then BOOM. Flip. The rope, incidentally, is attached to Bond's boat (it's certainly not attached to anything else, like an anchor). The direction that the zodiac's nose is pointed when it launches is to the left, which only supports this theory.

It works very well for me, and I've yet to see how it can be physically rebuffed.

Your explanation seems pretty plausible. I'd noticed the rocking back and forth, and figured that the hook was attached to Bond's boat, but couldn't make the connection between that and flipping the Zodiac. What you've written makes sense . . . though physics was never my strong suit.

I say we call the Mythbusters to know for sure.

[Glockenspiel]

"I think a lot of people would have completely overlooked deficiencies of script and awarded Quantum the label of a perfectly satisfactory and entertaining Bond".
SO TRUE!!!
So true...

Now it's my turn to agree with you. I think that's the overall problem with this style of shooting action - it has the opposite effect of it's intention by inadvertantly removing the sequence of tension. The African rundown, for example, is filled with iconic moment after iconic moment that never lacks for danger or excitement. Siena is the closest sequence in Quantum, but goes by so damned fast you never have time to feel scared - the next part of the sequence is already starting, so you know Bond made it out of the first before your brain can even process how!

Perfect example was the bus jump. It took until my 6th viewing to realize "oh, Bond ended up on the far side of the street with his first jump and had to get back." First few times I saw it, I had absolutely no idea why he jumped onto the bus.

Action can be fast, it can be close, it can be intense - but you need time to appreciate the danger. Otherwise, it's just a cacophony. It feels rushed. Quantum suffers from that. Which is a shame, because if the action had been shot with more of an Alex Witt/Martin Campbell sensibility, I think a lot of people would have completely overlooked deficiencies of script and awarded Quantum the label of a perfectly satisfactory and entertaining Bond.

[MattofSteel]

How did I become staunch defender of the boat chase's incomprehensible editing?

I would love that explanation 00Twelve, if not for the insert shot of the anchor rope being pulled away at what is clearly breakneck speed...something moving independently away from the two boats. The zodiac sliding couldn't possibly do that, unless it was sliding off and backward at 60mph...and then of course, it would be what, 50 metres behind Bond when the rope caught, as opposed to still obviously mounted on it when it flips?

Like I said, your idea works. Would have been great on film. But the zodiac is clearly getting pulled off the back of Bond's boat, and the rope pulling at it is clearly getting yanked away far too rapidly beforehand.

I think I'm just debunking on principal now. I swear, I'm really not this much of a nerd. Ah, who are we kidding.

[PositivelyShocking]

The scene doesn't make any sense. The very fact that both boats are going forward in motion makes it impossible for the front end of the boat to suddenly go down and then flip over backwards.

[gibraltarmonkey]

Just before the zodiac mounts Bonds boat and camiile is knocked out, there is a quick shot of bond rapidly pulling down on the throttle to slow the boat, I would have thought there would at least be a shot of Bond accelerating the boat from the throttle or by the engine to show his boat pulling away, just after chucking the guy in the zodiac back

[00Twelve]

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Still waiting on that DVD commentary explanation.

[gibraltarmonkey]

Watched it again last night, and in slow motion I am sure there is an anchor as well as a hook sitting in Bonds boat. The camera pans from an anchor to a hook (albeit so quick you would miss) and therefore we may have a missing shot where bond chucks an anchor overboard.

Edited by gibraltarmonkey, 30 July 2009 - 08:47 AM.

[MattofSteel]

You'r exactly right. My theory as well. Makes sense, it's cool...editing: EPIC FAIL!

[Judo chop]

The camera that had been set up to film Craig grabbing and tossing the anchor was snagged in the rope during the sequence and, itself, tossed over.

For the record, I believe this is exactly what is supposed to have happened:

1) There's a rope, with a hook at one end, and an anchor at the other.
2) Bond hooks boat, tosses anchor in water, and speeding boat flips.

The problem is, the boat isn’t really ‘speeding’ after it climbs up onto Bond’s boat. How could it be? Bond slowed down in order to cause the collision and now the boats are piggybacked and hardly in a position for rip-roaring velocities.

So... the scene doesn’t fail because of editing, but because of physics. There is no extra footage, real or imagined, that can help the scene to make sense. And frankly, I wonder if they realized this too late after shooting and deliberately yanked footage for the sake of keeping it confusing.

Now, having said that, I’m going to pee all over my own certainty and say that there’s a possibility that, after the bad guy's boat climbs onto Bond's boat, Bond speeds up his boat taking the bad guy’s boat along with him at a much faster velocity.

THEN...

1) Bond shimmies his boat to release the bad guy’s boat
2) Tosses the anchor, and…
3) FLIP.

But if that’s the case… my gosh… how much footage are we missing?!

[sorking]

Anyone else clock the fact that the same rope/hook gets a close-up at the start of the sequence, when Bond rams Medrano's boat...

[marktmurphy]

The camera that had been set up to film Craig grabbing and tossing th
Now, having said that, I’m going to pee all over my own certainty and say that there’s a possibility that, after the bad guy's boat climbs onto Bond's boat, Bond speeds up his boat taking the bad guy’s boat along with him at a much faster velocity.

THEN...

1) Bond shimmies his boat to release the bad guy’s boat
2) Tosses the anchor, and…
3) FLIP.

But if that’s the case… my gosh… how much footage are we missing?!

Well, I don't think that's what was meant to have happened, but on the same sort of subject I was watching the car chase recently and thought about that footage from the set that we've seen where the Aston flips onto its side as it goes past the JCB at the end of the chase- just before this we see Bond struggling to reach the machine gun in the passenger footwell: could it be that the chase's big 'Bond moment' was to be Bond intentionally turning the Aston onto its side so that the gun falls towards him, allowing him to shoot the baddies? It would have been rather silly, but less of an anti-climax than Bond simply shooting them with a gun he had all along and slightly cool.

EDIT: No, maybe not- just watched it again and realised that the Aston flips onto the wrong side to do that. Although perhaps the gun flicked back into his lap if the car was supposed to right itself..?

[Judo chop]

Well, I don't think that's what was meant to have happened, but on the same sort of subject I was watching the car chase recently and thought about that footage from the set that we've seen where the Aston flips onto its side as it goes past the JCB at the end of the chase- just before this we see Bond struggling to reach the machine gun in the passenger footwell: could it be that the chase's big 'Bond moment' was to be Bond intentionally turning the Aston onto its side so that the gun falls towards him, allowing him to shoot the baddies? It would have been rather silly, but less of an anti-climax than Bond simply shooting them with a gun he had all along and slightly cool.

I never saw that extra footage, but I’m glad they didn’t try to do a big Bond climax during the chase scene. I like the furious visual cacophony that finally settles with Bond’s arrival in Siena, and, IMO, Bond exposing Mr. White IS the climax.

Though a smaller, less conspicuous sequence which had the same affect might have worked well. Perhaps if Bond had just given another car a quick swiping bump that served as an aggressive move as well as causing the gun to slide from the passenger seat back over to his lap.

But it brings up a good point that I wish for more ‘creative solutions’ from Bond than QOS had to offer.

[MattofSteel]

So there WERE originally three Alfas chasing him. One must have been dispatched extraordinarily early to be able to edit around that. Also - why is the police car still in the chase when they pass the digger on the road? Perhaps there was initially more than one?

RE: your boat explanation Judo, I agree.