76 replies to this topic

[Harmsway]

And it's really groan on me. Even the moments on the pier between Greene and Camille fall flat for me. Aside from Greene's "ants under my skin" line (which I love) the whole sequence feels very dry. Information is communicated, and motives are established, but all very dryly. It needs more 'ants'. More juicy acting.

After capping the dialogue off with 3 minutes of 'action' (which amounts to just 'noise'), the whole chapter is the worst stretch of time in the film. I really don't look forward to it. I just want to get Bond off that boat and on that plane.

I agree, 100%.

[byline]

I personally think Greene's 'lyre' joke is one of the funnier villain lines in recent films. And I got it. But it's almost like...the film itself doesn't even realize he's joking...

Lyre joke? Where was that in the scene?

Not sure if this is what MattofSteel is referring to, but there's a line where Greene is talking about overhearing one of his mother's piano students saying things about him. Then, according to the captions, he tells Camille he took an iron, then waves his hand as if in a striking motion. When I saw it in the theatre, I thought Greene said, "I took her lyre."

[Mr. Blofeld]

I personally think Greene's 'lyre' joke is one of the funnier villain lines in recent films. And I got it. But it's almost like...the film itself doesn't even realize he's joking...

Lyre joke? Where was that in the scene?

Not sure if this is what MattofSteel is referring to, but there's a line where Greene is talking about overhearing one of his mother's piano students saying things about him. Then, according to the captions, he tells Camille he took an iron, then waves his hand as if in a striking motion. When I saw it in the theatre, I thought Greene said, "I took her lyre."

Well, I know he said "I took an iron" (never mind the fact that "lyre" is pronounced "lear" ).

[MattofSteel]

That's got to be an incorrect subtitle. Apart from the fact that it makes no sense, I got the impression the entire joke is that he builds up to this sinister story which you'd think would end with, "I put snake venom in a glass of milk" or something, but he just took her lyre. That would be funny, and a succinct definition of the character. The iron thing makes no sense to me.

[Harmsway]

The line is "I took an iron." That's how it's subtitled, and that's how I've heard it every time I saw the flick. Given the motion he makes at that point, the implication is that Greene bludgeoned someone with an iron.

[Judo chop]

Another vote for "iron." That's what I've always heard. He took an iron to her head, I would suppose. Not a nice thing to do.

[sharpshooter]

Another vote for "iron." That's what I've always heard. He took an iron to her head, I would suppose. Not a nice thing to do.

Yes, it’s definitely what he says.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Another vote for "iron." That's what I've always heard. He took an iron to her head, I would suppose. Not a nice thing to do.

Yes, it’s definitely what he says.

Took an iron to "his" head (i.e., his mother's lover's head). The story was a build-up to the reveal that he had murdered the geologist.

[MattofSteel]

But an "iron" on it's own doesn't mean anything, does it? Iron pole? Branding iron? And he doesn't say what he did with it. Surely an "iron" on its own is "not a practical weapon," as Blofeld would say, considering Greene could have his cronies do the job for him.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the entire point was, he's telling this laughably subversive story about his reaction to people whispering about him was so tame, while ironically standing over a man he's just murdered. Kind of a nice twist on some classic Bondian villain wit.

[Mr. Blofeld]

But an "iron" on it's own doesn't mean anything, does it? Iron pole? Branding iron? And he doesn't say what he did with it. Surely an "iron" on its own is "not a practical weapon," as Blofeld would say, considering Greene could have his cronies do the job for him.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the entire point was, he's telling this laughably subversive story about his reaction to people whispering about him was so tame, while ironically standing over a man he's just murdered. Kind of a nice twist on some classic Bondian villain wit.

No, he's saying he took a golf iron and presumably bludgeoned the guy about the head with it. He's saying he's liable to fly off the handle very often, as evinced by the dead geologist below him.

[Loomis]

The line is "I took an iron." That's how it's subtitled, and that's how I've heard it every time I saw the flick. Given the motion he makes at that point, the implication is that Greene bludgeoned someone with an iron.

Hmmm.... I always thought it meant that Greene burned someone with an iron.

Over here in Britain, an "iron" is something you use to iron clothes on an ironing board. You plug it in or fill it with water that boils, and it heats up. Does it have the same meaning in the States? I dunno. If not, what do y'all call the thing you iron clothes with?

Being a Frenchman (and, incidentally, a Frenchman based in Bristol, England - as the MI6 database tells us [you can just make out this info on the screen in the scene where M is gathering data on the Dominic Greenes of this world]), I think this is what Greene is referring to when he mentions an "iron". I doubt he's talking about golf clubs, iron bars, tyre irons or the like.

Then again, the dialogue was most likely written by an American (Paul Haggis or Joshua Zetumer), and the Bond series has also been responsible for howlers like "Sir Havelock" (FOR YOUR EYES ONLY) and Robinson saying "Dee-em-zee" in DIE ANOTHER DAY.

Still, I'm sure most Brits hearing that "I took an iron" line would have a horrible mental image of someone being scalded.

[Blofeld's Cat]

He probably saw Layer Cake for hints on ironing.

Americans may think "iron" in this case may mean "tire iron".

[Vauxhall]

Hmmm.... I always thought it meant that Greene burned someone with an iron.

Exactly how I always interpreted the line. Perhaps it's a British thing.

[Bonita]

Yes, the warehouse clerk / Bond villain does say he took an iron - which Americans and Brits would assume is a metal flat-bottomed object used to remove wrinkles from clothes.

The boat chase...the explanation initial makes sense, but he visuals don't. Not that Bond films are much for visual accuracy when depicting physics, but there is simply not enough air pressure in a zodiac boat to make it fly around like a balloon. All it would do is deflate, slowly. And I just can't see anyone on the Bond team - no matter how stupid you may think they are - would go for a Wiley Coyote moment like that.

Here's the problem: They had an idea, some reason the boat should flip. You just couldn't tell what it was when you were watching it.

Had other Bond films been edited like QoS (and I really still do love so much about the film):

Dr. No: Rather than have Bond and Dr. No dressed in different styles of radiation outfits, lets be more realistic. They would be dressed identically! They might be hard to tell apart, but who cares? It will be more exciting.

FRWL: Boat chase. Let's not stop the excitement to have Bond order that the oil barrels be let loose. Let's just have Bond grab a flare gun, fire, and whoosh, we get big fireballs! Cool, eh?

Goldfinger: The same Aston Martin scene where Bond is brought back to Auric Enterprises at gunpoint, except this time you don't see Bond flipping up the gear shift knob, pushing the button or the wide shot of the Korean guard flying through the roof. In Ft. Knox, the same fight with Oddjob, but this time, no annoying cuts to the timer on the atomic device! Or even the scene where Goldfinger goads Bond into figuring out that he will irradiate the gold supply! It's just a big metal box that's cool for some unexplained reason...(like the exploding hydrogen tanks in QoS)

You Only Live Twice: Little Nellie. We could have the entire dogfight done with yellowish gyrocopters, so it is hard to tell sometimes which craft you are looking at (like the car chase that opens QoS).

The Spy Who Loved Me: Ski chase. Boris chases Bond. No zoom out to the wide shot showing the cliff. No wide shot of Bond falling through space. Let's do it all in close-up in a wind tunnel! Let's be 'in the moment' as Bond struggles to open his chute! (like the freefall sequence in QoS)

Casino Royale: The Freerun chase. Let's dress Bond and Molaka (can't remember if this is how the character's name is spelled) in EXACTLY the same clothes, just slightly different colors. And let's make Molaka white, with short hair. That way, we can be confused when we see the first big crane jump. And let's break that jump into three or four different shots, all really close.

Hey, anyone have any notion of what Bond does immediately after pulling Greene up by his hair in the final fight of QoS? What's that dialog supposed to be.

BOND: "Hey, wait right here."
GREENE: "Sure, dude. No problem."
BOND: "I'm coming back, and I want to talk to you."
GREENE: "Look at my foot. I'm not going anywhere."
BOND: "Really. I've just got to see who got shot, but I'm coming back. If you try to go anywhere, I'm going to be major pissed."
GREENE: "Okay, but don't take long. I mean, I may go outside because it's hot in here. But I'm going to be around. It's not like there's any good place to hide out there. I mean just one guard with a sniper's rifle could protect this place from a small battalion...hey! wait a second! Why the hell didn't I just put one stinking guard on the roof with a sniper's rifle! You couldn't have gotten within a thousand yards of this place! God, I feel so stupid! Okay, that's it. This place is on fire. I'm going outside! You can be pissed at me, but you can't be any angrier than I am with myself! Geez, even that stupid SOB Elvis could have guarded this place if I'd just stuck him on the roof!"
BOND (stalking off finally):You feel stupid? "Listen, I stalked past some villagers dying of thirst and neglected to tell them there was a secret underground lake with all the water they wanted, then didn't tell my boss or the CIA what you were up to. What was up with that? Hey, one more, or, okay, a few more questions before I do something stupid. These hydrogen canisters—if there is one against a wall, and I shoot it, will it explode? And if it does, will that explosion blast back towards me, or will it blow out the wall and leave me okay? It seems like the wall would reflect the blast back at me."
GREENE: "Dude, listen, I saw a Mythbusters where they tried to get a propane tank to explode when it was shot. Nothing. Hydrogen may be a little less stable. Bullets are kind hot, but all the fire is in the barrel. I don't know. Maybe there could be a spark when the bullet makes the hole. Probably a long shot. One in a million. But you have a good point with the wall. It sure seems like if it did go up, you could end up like that idiot Elvis. I just don't know. I do a lot of things, but hydrogen tank testing, not my line of country. And why are you asking me? I managed to chop my foot in half. I'm an idiot!"
BOND: "Could happen to anybody. You just got too excited during the fight. Alright, but listen, if you get outside, just don't go far! We have got to talk, okay?"


Keep dancing...

[byline]

The line is "I took an iron." That's how it's subtitled, and that's how I've heard it every time I saw the flick. Given the motion he makes at that point, the implication is that Greene bludgeoned someone with an iron.

Hmmm.... I always thought it meant that Greene burned someone with an iron.

Over here in Britain, an "iron" is something you use to iron clothes on an ironing board. You plug it in or fill it with water that boils, and it heats up. Does it have the same meaning in the States? I dunno. If not, what do y'all call the thing you iron clothes with?

That's what we call it here, too. I got the impression he bludgeoned the piano student with it, possibly even burning skin (which would be especially frightening to Camille).

But I agree with MattofSteel; saying that he took her lyre and smacked her with it would've made a much better line: Early, fairly benign childhood revenge that manifested itself in much deadlier ways later on.

The boat chase...the explanation initial makes sense, but he visuals don't. Not that Bond films are much for visual accuracy when depicting physics, but there is simply not enough air pressure in a zodiac boat to make it fly around like a balloon. All it would do is deflate, slowly. And I just can't see anyone on the Bond team - no matter how stupid you may think they are - would go for a Wiley Coyote moment like that.

LOL, true enough!

Edited by byline, 18 April 2009 - 08:55 PM.

[MattofSteel]

The line is "I took an iron." That's how it's subtitled, and that's how I've heard it every time I saw the flick. Given the motion he makes at that point, the implication is that Greene bludgeoned someone with an iron.

Hmmm.... I always thought it meant that Greene burned someone with an iron.

Over here in Britain, an "iron" is something you use to iron clothes on an ironing board. You plug it in or fill it with water that boils, and it heats up. Does it have the same meaning in the States? I dunno. If not, what do y'all call the thing you iron clothes with?

That's what we call it here, too. I got the impression he bludgeoned the piano student with it, possibly even burning skin (which would be especially frightening to Camille).

But I agree with MattofSteel; saying that he took her lyre and smacked her with it would've made a much better line: Early, fairly benign childhood revenge that manifested itself in much deadlier ways later on.

Not even smacked her with it, as I interpreted it. I found it funny because he did NOTHING sinister. He just stole it. It's a subversion, instead of "I orchestrated a painfully vengeful death," it's just "I stole her lyre." Done. That was the joke. Now I'm disappointed, because apparently from consensus that's not the line, and I find the other way quite a bit funnier. Just never going to turn the subtitles on

[byline]

The line is "I took an iron." That's how it's subtitled, and that's how I've heard it every time I saw the flick. Given the motion he makes at that point, the implication is that Greene bludgeoned someone with an iron.

Hmmm.... I always thought it meant that Greene burned someone with an iron.

Over here in Britain, an "iron" is something you use to iron clothes on an ironing board. You plug it in or fill it with water that boils, and it heats up. Does it have the same meaning in the States? I dunno. If not, what do y'all call the thing you iron clothes with?

That's what we call it here, too. I got the impression he bludgeoned the piano student with it, possibly even burning skin (which would be especially frightening to Camille).

But I agree with MattofSteel; saying that he took her lyre and smacked her with it would've made a much better line: Early, fairly benign childhood revenge that manifested itself in much deadlier ways later on.

Not even smacked her with it, as I interpreted it. I found it funny because he did NOTHING sinister. He just stole it. It's a subversion, instead of "I orchestrated a painfully vengeful death," it's just "I stole her lyre." Done. That was the joke. Now I'm disappointed, because apparently from consensus that's not the line, and I find the other way quite a bit funnier. Just never going to turn the subtitles on

Yeah, I just came up with the "smacked her with it" as a trite acting out of his anger. But, like you, I thought he simply stole her lyre.

I guess it's always possible that the captions are wrong, but I tend to doubt it. Like you, I like the "lyre" line better, and I'll probably always prefer to think of Greene saying that, not what's in the captions.

[Roger Moore's Bad Facelift]

No wonder Wilson wants to rest. This director made a fool of the whole stunt team, and the whole production, only being saved by the fact that a 100mn movie made more screening a day and thus out numbered CR at the box office.

I've got some gripes with QOS, (namely, the script feels ad hoc), but Forster is the least among them.
On a technical level, I think QOS is a stunner.
The travelogue element, which had been sorely lacking in the Brosnan era, is back in spades.
Some of QOS's establishing shots are simply gorgeous.
The action scenes, while spastic, didn't fail to excite.
Personally, I'd welcome the return of Forster, Campbell, and yes, even Tamahori.

Edited by Roger Moore's Bad Facelift, 22 April 2009 - 06:49 PM.

[00Twelve]

No consensus on the boat climax, huh?

Can't wait for the DVD commentary.

[Tybre]

Wilson said in an interview with the Toronto Star that the only two action sequences supervised entirely by Forster (IE no Bradley or Simon Crane) were the Slate fight and the Perla des las Dunas fight. Both are cool, filled with Bond-isms and personality, and entirely coherent on the screen. Hmm.

So basically the stunt coordinators were idiots?

Not even smacked her with it, as I interpreted it. I found it funny because he did NOTHING sinister. He just stole it. It's a subversion, instead of "I orchestrated a painfully vengeful death," it's just "I stole her lyre." Done. That was the joke. Now I'm disappointed, because apparently from consensus that's not the line, and I find the other way quite a bit funnier. Just never going to turn the subtitles on

I agree, makes a much better line. Glad I never turned the subtitles on

[MattofSteel]

Wilson said in an interview with the Toronto Star that the only two action sequences supervised entirely by Forster (IE no Bradley or Simon Crane) were the Slate fight and the Perla des las Dunas fight. Both are cool, filled with Bond-isms and personality, and entirely coherent on the screen. Hmm.

So basically the stunt coordinators were idiots?

Ha, I can see why my quote makes it seem like I'm saying that. I said somewhere else, I think Bradley actually turned in remarkable work in parts of the film, and I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the way Crane shot the boat chase. But the final product (in certain sequences) just wasn't there. It was partly due to the way the action/shots were designed, and partly due to the editing.

[Paul Scrabo]

QOS does not have a "style". It's just doing what they think is "fashionable" for the time.
And the pace seems a bit wacky with these fast paced bits wrapped around those silly shots of Bond going one mile per hour on a motorbike. It looked a bit weird..??

[Mr. Blofeld]

QOS does not have a "style". It's just doing what they think is "fashionable" for the time.
And the pace seems a bit wacky with these fast paced bits wrapped around those silly shots of Bond going one mile per hour on a motorbike. It looked a bit weird..??

To you, maybe...

[Paul Scrabo]

To me, definitely
But it's wild that the Bond boat chase scene needs an explanation as to what happened..! It had no payoff to me while seeing it, no satisfaction. Eventually, I saw that the boat flips over, but the whole sequence seemed not very well done.
Paul

Edited by Paul Scrabo, 03 June 2009 - 10:27 PM.

[byline]

Wow, I thought there was plenty of payoff, here and throughout the entire film. it's just that technically, the boat flip doesn't seem to make sense (my feeling is that there's a missing connecting shot to explain it). But the visuals and pacing were exciting enough for me, and ultimately I don't really care how the boat flipped. Nagging question, but in the end it's doesn't make or break the movie, for me. Different strokes, and all. . . .

[MattofSteel]

QOS does not have a "style". It's just doing what they think is "fashionable" for the time.
And the pace seems a bit wacky with these fast paced bits wrapped around those silly shots of Bond going one mile per hour on a motorbike. It looked a bit weird..??

The film oozes style and was designed with, IMO, the perfect "cinematic Bond" aesthetic. What it lacks is the familiar spirit - that ironic sense of humour that has traditionally permeated every frame of every Bond film previous, even being subverted to various ends of its own spectrum (IE Moonraker vs License to Kill). Even Casino Royale, I came away from saying "That was the funniest Bond in the last 20 years."

Editing is partly the culprit. Forster's sense of direction is another - but understand, by saying this, I'm not condemning him. He's a competent director who had a great many successes within the film. He has a sense of mature style that the series needed an injection of, even post-CR. Campbell came from TV directing I believe, and as wonderfully as I think he directed CR, you can still see it. Forster's is often pure cinema.

I think, for me, the ultimate summary of the film's spirit comes down to the fact that it doesn't enjoy being a Bond film - I think all the great Bond films enjoy the fact they are a Bond film almost consciously, and they take advantage of it. QOS seems indifferent to itself...if that makes any sense.

And yet, at the same time...I cannot fault it for this approach, as its entirely emotionally honest given the circumstances of the story (which the film should reflect) and as a person who enjoys that kind of level of filmmaking as opposed to some of the mindlessness we've seen in the past, I welcomed it.

I guess all I'm saying is, it's my personal explanation for why the film didn't work for some people, and though I tolerated it for this film and ultimately enjoyed the final product more for it - I hope this doesn't become the norm, going forward. It's not the Walthers, tuxedos, and martinis that have kept people coming back for 40 years. It's that spirit. I'd imagine it will return.

Wow, I thought there was plenty of payoff, here and throughout the entire film. it's just that technically, the boat flip doesn't seem to make sense (my feeling is that there's a missing connecting shot to explain it). But the visuals and pacing were exciting enough for me, and ultimately I don't really care how the boat flipped. Nagging question, but in the end it's doesn't make or break the movie, for me. Different strokes, and all. . . .

The payoff is fine, it's just the total lack of tension leading up to it. Not because its filmed poorly or executed badly - there's just a far too disjointed narrative (if any at all) throughout the chase, which prevents you from ever really getting excited.

[Bucky]

i trust that james bond knew what he was doing in that scene and was able to make the boat flip by using his genius. i dont need to see exactly how he did it.

[Paul Scrabo]

Good and interesting points by Mattosteel.
Paul

[byline]

Wow, I thought there was plenty of payoff, here and throughout the entire film. it's just that technically, the boat flip doesn't seem to make sense (my feeling is that there's a missing connecting shot to explain it). But the visuals and pacing were exciting enough for me, and ultimately I don't really care how the boat flipped. Nagging question, but in the end it's doesn't make or break the movie, for me. Different strokes, and all. . . .

The payoff is fine, it's just the total lack of tension leading up to it. Not because its filmed poorly or executed badly - there's just a far too disjointed narrative (if any at all) throughout the chase, which prevents you from ever really getting excited.

You make some very good points. However, I didn't experience a total lack of tension in that scene. When Bond motorcycles onto a boat, then speeds away, then we see Greene's and Elvis's comically shocked facial expressions as Bond slams into Medrano's boat, then Bond jumps onboard, knocking the gun out of Camille's hand as he yanks her onto another boat and speeds way, I felt that those elements were all perfectly timed, and I was right there with them. The shots following that were perhaps edited too quickly, and the entire sequence was stretched out too long, but I don't feel that it completely failed in the suspense department; maybe it just didn't succeed as well as it could have.

Edited by byline, 04 June 2009 - 03:55 PM.

[MattofSteel]

Wow, I thought there was plenty of payoff, here and throughout the entire film. it's just that technically, the boat flip doesn't seem to make sense (my feeling is that there's a missing connecting shot to explain it). But the visuals and pacing were exciting enough for me, and ultimately I don't really care how the boat flipped. Nagging question, but in the end it's doesn't make or break the movie, for me. Different strokes, and all. . . .

The payoff is fine, it's just the total lack of tension leading up to it. Not because its filmed poorly or executed badly - there's just a far too disjointed narrative (if any at all) throughout the chase, which prevents you from ever really getting excited.

You make some very good points. However, I didn't experience a total lack of tension in that scene. When Bond motorcycles onto a boat, then speeds away, then we see Greene's and Elvis's comically shocked facial expressions as Bond slams into Medrano's boat, then Bond jumps onboard, knocking the gun out of Camille's hand as he yanks her onto another boat and speeds way, I felt that those elements were all perfectly timed, and I was right there with them. The shots following that were perhaps edited too quickly, and the entire sequence was stretched out too long, but I don't feel that it completely failed in the suspense department; maybe it just didn't succeed as well as it could have.

You're absolutely right. Great moments. The entire thing as a package just doesn't build. You're never really completely sure who's on the offensive at certain times, or about the geography of the harbour, or anything beyond the fact that it's chaotic and Bond is trying to survive. Excellent premise for an action sequence - but in what should otherwise be perhaps HIGHER tension than an otherwise normal chase (think, parkour in CR), why does it feel somewhat underwhelming?

I'm personally on the side that the boat chase isn't nearly as bad as some people make it out to be - it's a serviceable action sequence, its just too chaotic. It's symptomatic of the general editing problem Quantum suffers from. That payoff should be awesome, and prompt that long "ohhhhh" from the audience when it happens. I saw the film 4 times in theatres, with varying crowds, and it never did - mostly because people were whispering "how did he do that?"