34 replies to this topic

[Willowhugger]

Which, honestly, makes the ridiculously over the top elements of the film all the more ridiculous. It's strange, but I think that if you removed only some of the elements or changed others around that it might well have been an enjoyable popcorn flick even if it was a little too similiar to Diamonds are Forever.

Ultimately, the premise is fairly sound. Die Another Day was working out pretty well as a remake of the Fleming version of Moonraker with some elements stolen from Colonel Sun.

[Literary Post Note: I've always loved Colonel Sun the character despite the fact that I consider the book even more racist than Fleming's worst moments but conciliatory to Russian communism, which only makes it insulting to Fleming's world as well.]

I think where the movie really starts to verge off course is the introduction of Halle Berry's character. Ultimately, the problem of Jinx is a major flaw of the James Bond movie. Halle and the studio actually were starting to think seriously of spin off potential without actually telling whether the audiences would respond to the character well or not. Jinx attempts to co-star in the film and we have no investment in her yet.

The fact that her characterization is paper-thin is also something that doesn't aid in the matter. Bond Girls and characterization is somewhat of a dicey proposition to begin with but in the movie we're going for, some bit of backstory beyond being a secret agent Action-Girl might have elevated it beyond being essentially a replacement for Ming-Na's character in Tomorrow Never Dies as "The American James Bond with bossoms."

A lot of the movies more egregious flaws come from trying to highlight Jinx's character. The American's dismissal of the British MI6 (let alone South Korea's own military), Halley Berry's rivalry with Miranda Frost totally eclipsing Pierce Brosnan's betrayal by her, and the fact that Bond does almost nothing in the genetics tampering facility largely undercuts Bond in this movie. In retrospect, I think the producers might have been better to establish Jinx as the CIA operative that was the traitor as opposed to Miranda Frost. Halley Berry is certainly a more credible threat than Miranda Frost and would not make MI6 look so stupid.

Much has been said also about the Science Fiction technology of the film that commenting on it further just seems like a waste of time. Really, I don't mind the fact that Bond technology is occasionally impossible. I do, however, think that Bond technology is never meant to be obviously impossible. The effect is especially jarring in this movie because it bothers to use real locations and politics to ground itself. Plastic surgery with artificial skin like DAF versus the gooblegook of altering DNA, an invisible car, a cybernetic body enhancer and so on is bad enough. The fact it relies on a multi-billion dollar death way is positively tame by comparison.

I think, really, the biggest issue with the story is that by trying to place it in our world is that the movie totally becomes impossible. Using North Korea as a backdrop for the movie is perfectly fine. It's a little risque and avante guard to have a member of its military be the Bad Guy after going so far to deconstruct the Cold War myth but it's certainly worth the risk. But the very finale of the movie totally throws the movie into another reality.

If you're going to not mention Kim Jong Il in the massive invasion of South Korea and Japan, eliminate the world's largest minefield, and effectively RE-START THE KOREAN WAR then you're not doing North Korea. You might as well name the land North Mordor for its relationship to the real world. In fact, I'd prefer that sort of honesty. License to Kill could have taken place in Columbia but it loses nothing for being in FictionalLandistan.

Still, there's much to be said for the movie. The idea of Bond getting tortured repeatedly to the point he can't escape is something that works extremely well (I wasn't aware that Scorpion venom was that painful, though). So is the idea of going to China for help in hunting down Zao for his activities. Had the movie kept only the Death Ray and eliminated the other Science Fiction Gobbledegook (and maybe had Gustav just use cutting edge surgery and flesh grafts) then ended it really with a fight above Iceland. Making him a military officer only after his own personal agrandizement.

I think the movie might have been done well. It would have been a helluv lot shorter but I can more easily buy Colonel Moon wanting to take over North Korea than I could the total alteration of the military situation in Asia.

My .02 at least.

[Dr.Mirakle32]

As ridiculous as the film is, I completely admire it for what it is: a modern day, big-budget throw-back to the big, borderline sci-fi, extravaganza Bonds like MOONRAKER, DAF and YOLT. Overall, it's my second favorite Brosnan after GOLDENEYE, and I still enjoy it for what it was intended to be.

It may have to do with it being my first Bond in a theater, but last night I watched it on Blu Ray, and I really don't understand why snobbier fans can't have fun with it. There's a time and a place for the "gritty" Bond like LTK, CR and QoS, but there's also the time and place for the fun, goofy Bond like DAD. Despite its numerous flaws, deep down, it's a solid film. Nothing to write home about, or nominate for an award, but campy entertainment.

By the way, it makes for a great double feature with CR, as they both are the epitomes of the two kinds of cinematic Bond, while sharing many visual similarites. One could even watch CR first and DAD second; the former is Bond's "realistic" first mission, and the latter is his outlandish last (the fact that Judi Dench is in both also connects the two.)

Edited by Dr.Mirakle32, 18 December 2008 - 03:50 AM.

[Righty007]

You're right, the first half of Die Another Day is decent.

[Matt_13]

I can deal with the absurdities up until Halle Berry shows up. Then things just get out of hand. The only scene I can say I enjoy is Bond's meeting with M in the Underground railway station. Other than that, Berry really sinks the ship.

[Willowhugger]

I can deal with the absurdities up until Halle Berry shows up. Then things just get out of hand. The only scene I can say I enjoy is Bond's meeting with M in the Underground railway station. Other than that, Berry really sinks the ship.

Honestly, I wonder if the movie wouldn't have been far better if Gustav Graves and Colonel Moon were different characters. The two are totally different but I think the movie would have been better had they been able to play off one another.

[tdalton]

I can deal with the absurdities up until Halle Berry shows up. Then things just get out of hand. The only scene I can say I enjoy is Bond's meeting with M in the Underground railway station. Other than that, Berry really sinks the ship.

Honestly, I wonder if the movie wouldn't have been far better if Gustav Graves and Colonel Moon were different characters. The two are totally different but I think the movie would have been better had they been able to play off one another.

Agreed. I think that having the two be completely separate villains would have made the film much better.

[broadshoulder]

I can deal with the absurdities up until Halle Berry shows up. Then things just get out of hand. The only scene I can say I enjoy is Bond's meeting with M in the Underground railway station. Other than that, Berry really sinks the ship.

Honestly, I wonder if the movie wouldn't have been far better if Gustav Graves and Colonel Moon were different characters. The two are totally different but I think the movie would have been better had they been able to play off one another.

I've got about twenty different problems with this movie which when I saw it at the cinemas found myself thinking if this is the direction they are going in then perhaps it is time to retire James Bond before his credibility goes through the plughole.

I dont agree DAD is half a good film - the first half is pretty lousy as well.

The Korean torture, for me, doesnt work. Brosnan with a beard doesnt work it just screams "I'm a real actor take me seriously" and the jokes about his belly and whether they have been torturing with "Viennettas" have some credence about them.

We also have cliche after cliche. The whole film is a set of cliches thrown at the wall and seeing which will stick. Most of them dont.

There are only two segments that work in the whole film - the swordfight and the debriefing in the abandoned tube station. Even then Dench looks bored - Tamahori obviously didnt bother with her, probably thinking up his next cliche.

[Willowhugger]

I don't consider it a literal "half and half" movie. I appreciate the idea they were going to take with it. I think the Ice Palace is a beautiful set location, even if it's obviously a set. I also like Miranda Frost. I'm a sucker for pleasant and sweet seeming British girls. So, I'm annoyed at how they constantly turn bad or end up dead in these movies.

Really, they just needed some heavy editing and a few scenes refilmed.

[tim partridge]

I think where the movie really starts to verge off course is the introduction of

the CGI bullet.

[SecretAgentFan]

I think where the movie really starts to verge off course is the introduction of

the CGI bullet.

[plankattack]

flick even if it was a little too similiar to Diamonds are Forever.

This wasn't by accident. Either P or W, or maybe P&W, said in an interview that DAF was one of the first Bond-films that they saw and that they "loved" it and that as DAD was the 40-yr homage fest - well you can take it from there. They also had included a fight in a glass elevator (in tribute to the original film) but that got replaced by the laser beam homage to GF (I don't think it's a coincidence that we end up with an lift fight in QoS). Any similarities to DAF (and really, if you substitute DNA therapy for the mud bath it's pretty much a remake about giant space laser) are entirely on purpose.

All questionnable decisions really, and lazy scriptwriting at best. If you're going to rip on an early film, I can think of five better. Still, "Diamonds are for everyone...."

[Pierce - Daniel]

DAD is a remake of DAF, in the same sence that AVTAK is a remake to GF. But having said that I do prefer DAD to DAF, DAF is pretty awfull, even the presence of Connery can't save that film. i'd hate to be a Bond fan back in 71, imgine the re-teaming of Connery and Hamilton from GF back shooting in America, that is pretty fantastic and guess what we got.......ohhhhhhhhhhhh

But back to DAD, I honestly say that the first hour of the film is fantastic, classic Bond with a twist. Who can't love it, great pts, amazing mts, the whole 14 month torure, wow, I was so shocked in the cinema, the M and Bond scene, the whole hotel scene was brilliant, Cuba, Arnold's music when Bond is driving the car, Jinx coming out of the water, the clinic, Mr. Blonde's there, The underground station M scene, the VR scene, John Cleese..........then........it all goes very wrong. A good director would hae hired a new scriptwritter and made him change the entire 2nd and 3rd act.
What could have been done was just add another 40 minutes or so opposed to the 70 more minutes of DAD we endure, just make the ending a pacy ending with Bond chasing Zao with Frost helping him, while Jinx goes on her mission to bring in Zao, Bond who is working with Frost finds out she's the bad guy, him and Jinx pool together and go after Zao and her who are in cohoots. End film.....done.

[dogmanstar]

Once I found out that much of DAD was based on MR, I found that I enjoyed DAD quite a bit more. I liked the transformation into Graves, the locations, the general spine of the plot lifted from MR. I disliked Barry, the awful double entendres, the terrible dialogue and the merely "oh, let's put Kyll in Oddjob's suit" nature of the rest of the film.

[Gothamite]

As ridiculous as the film is, I completely admire it for what it is: a modern day, big-budget throw-back to the big, borderline sci-fi, extravaganza Bonds like MOONRAKER, DAF and YOLT. Overall, it's my second favorite Brosnan after GOLDENEYE, and I still enjoy it for what it was intended to be.

It may have to do with it being my first Bond in a theater, but last night I watched it on Blu Ray, and I really don't understand why snobbier fans can't have fun with it. There's a time and a place for the "gritty" Bond like LTK, CR and QoS, but there's also the time and place for the fun, goofy Bond like DAD. Despite its numerous flaws, deep down, it's a solid film. Nothing to write home about, or nominate for an award, but campy entertainment.

By the way, it makes for a great double feature with CR, as they both are the epitomes of the two kinds of cinematic Bond, while sharing many visual similarites. One could even watch CR first and DAD second; the former is Bond's "realistic" first mission, and the latter is his outlandish last (the fact that Judi Dench is in both also connects the two.)

* Stands up and applauds. *

My sentiments exactly. Honestly, I am quite alright with the sci-fi silliness of DAD. I will agree that things get messy where Jinx is concerned and she just doesn't work in the film and the poorly scripted, awkward dialogue she has with Bond agrees with me. Rosamund Pike's character was much more interesting.

[dogmanstar]

As Rosamund Pike's character was much more interesting.

I looooovvvvvve Miranda Frost! Great character.

[Publius]

You found the other half of Tamahori's originally planned four hour epic?



But seriously, I'd agree that DAD is a half decent movie (maybe better), if somebody would go in and do something about the endless string of atrocious dialog. I mean, it really is that bad. Mouthfuls and Big Bangs and Yo Mamas abound -- in a Bond film? A good line is Bond's "plenty of ice... if you can spare it" (if only I could put DAD Brosnan in Goldeneye). A bad line is... whatever Jinx did when she parted her lips.

Just do to Jinx in DAD what those Star Wars fans did to Jar Jar in their edit of Phantom Menace, and suddenly DAD rivals TND for Brosnan's best and an acceptable, TSWLM-style, well-earned swan song for the man.

[Eurospy]

Welll, first of all, I think the really enormous problem was quite simply the CGI Bond. Just my opinion. But that oh so simple detail was just the lowest of the low as far as I'm concerned.

On the overall, I think that the movie's biggest problem was that they wanted to have the cake and eat it (or however the saying goes).

They gaves us a Bond going through Hell itself with the 13-month torture sequence, AND have a more sci-fi/epic feel to it. I said it in other threads, but I'll refer this point once again - the man went through an enormous amount of pain for a long period of time without any kind of consequences to his mind or body whatsoever, and then the explanations they give us concerning the character itself is that he could meditate to the point of slowing his heart beat?! I didn't buy it from the get-a-go. And that's quite early in the film to pull at least one audience member out of the picture.

If the movie had not featured that torture sequence (in the way it was presented/executed), and had there been no offending CGI Bond, I think I'd have enjoyed the movie a great deal more. And they went overboard/overkill/etc. with the one-liners AND the random car explosions. In the hands of another director, this would have been a much better movie, no matter how many sci-fi elements they injected. Unfortunately, Tamahori is not exactly adequate (nor competent for that matter) to direct a solid, well-balanced action movie.

I still think it's fun to watch, but not in the way I'd like though.

[Blonde Bond]

I hoestly didn't like it the first dozen times that I saw it. But after I saw the awe inspiring piece of modern classic that is Casino Royale , it opened my eyes to this fun over the top adventure that is Die Another Day.

Then I was reminded that a long running franchise like Bond needs these occational over the top movies to make the next , more grittier movie feel fresh . The next one is almost always grittier.

And so I've come to accept Die Another Day. I actually want to see it more often , than I did years ago. Last time I saw it , I wanted to see it again only a week after. Just like Casino Royale , that I like or want to watch often.

I like it about my fandom , that I can appreciate movies like 'OHMSS' , 'Moonraker' , 'Licence To Kill' , 'Die Another Day' or 'Casino Royale' without excluding one for its grittiness , or the lack of it.

Blonde Bond approves both OTT - and gritty Bonds

[Turn]

I like it about my fandom , that I can appreciate movies like 'OHMSS' , 'Moonraker' , 'Licence To Kill' , 'Die Another Day' or 'Casino Royale' without excluding one for its grittiness , or the lack of it.

Blonde Bond approves both OTT - and gritty Bonds

I can identify. The fun thing about this series is there is such a variety of movies and you can enjoy them all in their own way if you give them a chance and take them in the spirit they were intended. Except for maybe TWINE.

[Quincy]

I believe DAD would be decent if they lost Jinx as a major part in the film. I mean some of the dialogue was very cheesy. "Saved by the bell", "Your momma, and she told me to tell you she's really disspointed in you". Ugh! Oh and lose the Ickerus. It was done in GoldenEye.

[Thunderball302]

DAD is a remake of DAF, in the same sence that AVTAK is a remake to GF. But having said that I do prefer DAD to DAF, DAF is pretty awfull, even the presence of Connery can't save that film. i'd hate to be a Bond fan back in 71, imgine the re-teaming of Connery and Hamilton from GF back shooting in America, that is pretty fantastic and guess what we got.......ohhhhhhhhhhhh

But back to DAD, I honestly say that the first hour of the film is fantastic, classic Bond with a twist. Who can't love it, great pts, amazing mts, the whole 14 month torure, wow, I was so shocked in the cinema, the M and Bond scene, the whole hotel scene was brilliant, Cuba, Arnold's music when Bond is driving the car, Jinx coming out of the water, the clinic, Mr. Blonde's there, The underground station M scene, the VR scene, John Cleese..........then........it all goes very wrong. A good director would hae hired a new scriptwritter and made him change the entire 2nd and 3rd act.
What could have been done was just add another 40 minutes or so opposed to the 70 more minutes of DAD we endure, just make the ending a pacy ending with Bond chasing Zao with Frost helping him, while Jinx goes on her mission to bring in Zao, Bond who is working with Frost finds out she's the bad guy, him and Jinx pool together and go after Zao and her who are in cohoots. End film.....done.

not wanting to get away from DAD - but DAF is horrible - the film is bad - Connery looked old and looked like he was walking through it - DAF is without a doubt Connery's worst of his "official" Bond films.

that being said - i was fairly happy with Brosnan's run until DAD. there is nothing good about it. DAD and DAF are as bad as the worst of the Moore films - and i don't the Moore films.

[Dr.Mirakle32]

I actually really like DAF, too. Go figure.

[Willowhugger]

They gaves us a Bond going through Hell itself with the 13-month torture sequence, AND have a more sci-fi/epic feel to it. I said it in other threads, but I'll refer this point once again - the man went through an enormous amount of pain for a long period of time without any kind of consequences to his mind or body whatsoever, and then the explanations they give us concerning the character itself is that he could meditate to the point of slowing his heart beat?! I didn't buy it from the get-a-go. And that's quite early in the film to pull at least one audience member out of the picture

You know what's worse? I can think of no reason why that Bond just didn't pull the plug on his heart monitor to accomplish the exact same thing.

[dee-bee-five]

I watched it again yesterday. First time for a while. And I enjoyed it. Quite a bit, actually. It reminded me again how this film has been the victim of snobby, po-faced Bond fans incapable of taking a joke. It's not perfect. It's nowhere near the best (in my opinion), but it delivers two hours of absurd, expensive entertainment. Given that no-one ever claimed it had loftier ambitions than that, I'd call it a success.

[Turn]

I really don't mind the Iceland scenes for the most part. Sure the parasurfing and car chase get tedious, but I still don't think DAD is as bad as most peg it to be.

The only thing I really don't like is the finale. Bond and Jinx break into an airfield like breaking into some candy store, not a military installation, then all the crap on the plane, it's just too much.

[Professor Pi]

I just watched it again yesterday. Though I enjoy it, its dialogue gets worse everytime. But it's fun to catch its references to other Bond films and books ("Sex for dinner, death for breakfast" is a chapter title.)

As for double features, I think it goes well with Tomorrow Never Dies. Both are set in Asia, have non-Fleming titles, snow scenes, feature female secret agents, and are totally over the top. A big climactic battle scene at the ice palace might have been a better ending, with Graves still controlling Icarus' havok over Korea.

And though Judi Dench is far and above Brosnan in all their scenes, I am of the opinion that this was Brosnan's best performance as Bond, ironically possibly in his worst movie. While I like the title, to give Pierce a Fleming title, I might have called it "The Diamond Smugglers" (his non-Bond book.)

[BlackFire]

I don't understand the hate!

Sure there was a lot of CGI, but that was because the movie wanted (and needed) to keep modern.. accept it people, the 70's and 80's are over.

On the other hand, CGI stunts must not be abused, real acting is always the best bet.

As for Halle Berry.. well she's hot and all that but I really agree with they guys who said that she stole a lot of screen time.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

You're right, the first half of Die Another Day is decent.

What he said.

[007karl007]

i dont think its all that bad ... its watchable in my opinion.

[Cabainus]

Invisible car, Madonnas cameo, "Yo Mamma" all pretty mind numbing stuff, but Graves appearing at the end of that film in that ridiculous techno-suit is what did it for me.

I mean WTF was all that about??