377 replies to this topic

[The Ghost Who Walks]

I think Liman is something of a hit-and-miss director. The Bourne Identity is terrific, but his films after it, Mr. and Mrs. Smith and Jumper, have, while being entertaining in their own right, lacked something. I'd rather have them find a talented young director hungry for some mainstream success.

[s.a.s. Malko]

As for new Bond movies using ideas from Ludlum's books, didn't the previous films mostly discard the novels completely? I haven't read any of them personally.

I assume you meant Bourne there, didn't you?

The films have dropped the Bourne novel plot right from the start. Ludlum's Treadstone operation was set up for the sole purpose of catching Carlos the Jackal. Treadstone created the fiction of a super terrorist operating chiefly in Asia, Jason Bourne. Fake assasinations, fake terrorist attacks were staged, numerous real-life events, killings, assaults were taken credit for by the Bourne legend. The idea was to exert pressure on Carlos from an unexpected direction, stage a kind of 'duel of the titans' situation between Bourne and the infamous Carlos, once he learns Bourne sets out to expand his operations to Europe. so this part was pretty much a variation of the 'man that never was' idea.

The second part is of course strongly influenced by Fleming's idea to let Bond lose his memory for a time. While Bourne worked on tracing Carlos he suffered a severe headshot. Recovering from this he's afraid of himself for he actually believes what the newspapers write about Jason Bourne. Further evidence of his abilities are numerous encounters with all kinds of dangerous situations and the enormous amount of cash in his Zuerich bank account. Bourne doesn't know he's an agent sent to track down Carlos but he immediately knows Carlos is his enemy. His own people at Treadstone fear he's turned sides for he didn't contact them and nobody anticipated the outlandish possibility their operator could lose his memory. When Treadstone is assaulted, all personnel killed and Bourne's fingerprints found among the debris, there isn't need for further investigation. When Bourne finally does make contact, the first thing they do is packing guns and ammo. Only the aquaintance between Bourne and Conklin prevents that either is killed immediately. Bourne finally confronts Carlos whithout being able to kill or arrest him.

In this plot Bourne is essentially a 'good' agent believing in his own cover story for a time. Film Bourne has inverted the concept. For one thing Carlos the Jackal has lost most of his fascination over the decades. At the end of the seventies he's held a similar status ObL does today, an infamous figurehead of terrorism. When 'The Bourne Identity' hit theaters this character would have been hard to sel to the audience as a major threat. Another problem was the 'killers fight for turf' idea. It's certainly not entirely outlandish, organised crime can attest to that every other week, just look a your newspaper. But it's much harder to integrate into a plot of roughly two hours with the kind of dynamic they had in mind for Bourne, i.e. concentrating on his character telling most of the plot pretty close to him with both him and the audience having little idea what the score is.

They could have played closer to the novel with Bourne, the 'good' bad thugs and the 'bad' bad thugs chasing him, but that would have meant a different balance. So they decided to cut down Carlos to the size of Wombosi and blow up Treadstone to a long lasting black murder operation whose members are spread strategically across major cities, an idea Ludlum mentioned in passing in Parsifal Mosaic if I recall correctly.

This change, Bourne being in effect just one of several killers shooting, choking and stabbing their path through their targets, also meant a major divergence from Ludlum's original character. His David Webb is the archetype of suburbia, middle aged, middle classed, only in it because a horrible fate bereaved him of his family. Film Bourne is a young though-as-nails guy whose reasons to join Treadstone (a step incorporating severe physical abuse if his flashbacks are anything to judge by) are still in the dark. He didn't play the killer, he actually was it. Ludlum's Bourne suffered from memories of a tragical loss and horrible war experiences, none of them actually his fault. Film Bourne suffers from memories of his own victims, of their painful struggle, all of that very much his fault. And he suffers so much that he can't take the strain any more and actually has to find the daughter of a couple he killed and confess his deed to her.

This may not sit well with some, but film Bourne is closer to the guard of a death camp suddenly getting a conscience than to his literary counterpart. And his situation is even made worse by the loss of memory, for this also robbed him of the reasons he originally had for joining the CIA and Treadstone. If he knew about them he could try to rationalise why he did what he did. Without them he's to take the full force of his guilt, an immeasurably harder task, a burden he struggles to take on.

My opinion: film Bourne is a deeper and more faceted character than Ludlum's original. One of the few examples where a film actually covered more interesting characters and situations than the original novel did.

Sorry, but have to totally disagree. I don´t see a big character development in the movies. He just runs away trying not to get killed. He didn´t have a conscience until he saw the kids of Wombosi. Before that he thought he did the right thing for his country. What makes the books so special is the difference between David Webb and Jason Bourne. They are only the two sides of the character of one man and come to task when needed (in the second and third book). Thats what I call a faceted character. A normal family guy who has the abilities trough his training and the things happened in his life to become a ruthless killer and back. It´s the same thing I like so much about The Unit.

[Trident]

Very interesting reading. Sounds like they've thrown away the source material to an even larger degree than the Bond filmmakers have done at times. I actually own the first two books, but I can never seem to get around to actually read them.

From your post, I must say Damon-Bourne sounds like a more original and possibly intriguing character than Ludlum-Bourne. The "scarred by war" has been done so many times so many places that it loses some of its fascination for me.

Oh, Ludlum's character does have his own merits. Ludlum successfully depicts a kind of functional PTSD victim working as an agent, particularly in the later two books. What damages his character's impact is the inconsequence in which Ludlum follows his first Bourne book. The Bourne Supremacy completely changes the storyarch from Carlos to Asia and the Kuomintang plot. This somewhat disturbs the not too compelling force of credibility as Carlos is hardly mentioned here. Ludlum apparently was surprised about the enormous success of BI and obviously didn't want to follow up the Carlos thread. This opened the opportunity for a more prominent role of Bourne's/Webb's past with Medusa, which wasn't bad at all. I was just waiting the 600 pages for Carlos to appear.

The Carlos motif finally is taken up again in Bourne Ultimatum, together with Medusa which has evolved from a 'dirty dozen' group of desperado-mercenaries into an omnipotent behind-the-scenes player, a Blackwater-meets-NYSE-meets-The White House-meets-mafia-meets-NATO-meets-Illuminati, really an unlikely development for a deniable and expendable rogue outfit from the Vietnam war, an idea that robbed a big deal of the entire book's plausibility. Still, even the third Bourne has it's moments and it's one of the few secret agent thrillers that sported an ageing hero, for Ludlum acknowledged Webb's age at least partially (and certainly more than any Bond continuation ever did).

[double o ego]

From what I read there was some disagrement on about one of the script writer is which the director was informed about. He'll be back, I would not worry.

All this talk about there is no reason for Bourne anymore. Ludlum wrote two more books about Bourne after he became David Webb again. One plot was about the reason for his last black-op comes back to haunt him and everybody he holds dear. The last one was about a copycat Jason Bourne with intimate knowledge about JB and how he works. It takes Bourne to find him and stop the baddies.

Both can perfectly rewritten as a psycholical drama in which Bourne in retirement, when everybody thinks is dead, gets pulled back due to deeds that are blamed on him and therefor the hunt starts again. The CIA doesn't trust him and he can't trust them. And away we go................

Yes, away we go back to the plot of the second film.

[The Richmond Spy]

For what it's worth, Damon is on the record saying he would do Bourne 4 if Greengrass OR Liman were director. I heard this from Damon himself. He was talking to a local radio station about the 2008 election (trying to get Cincinnati voters to vote for Obama...Ohio is a big swing state) and they slipped in a question about Bourne at the end. He clearly stated that he would do it if either of them returned. Someone call Doug Liman and get him on board!

[Cody]

Will The Next Bourne Be A Prequel?

While we were doing the red carpet thing at last night’s premiere of Invictus, we cornered Matt Damon and demanded that he tell us just what the HECK is going on with Bourne IV, following Paul Greengrass’ recent departure. What he told us will rock you to your very core:

“There’ll probably be a prequel of some kind with another actor and another director before we do another one,” he said, “just because I think we’re probably another five years away from doing it – we’ve got to get a script…”

OK, note the word ‘probably’. Could mean all kinds of things – that Damon is engaging in pure speculation, for one. But if anyone’s going to have the inside track on Universal’s plans for Bourne, it’s David Webb himself. So… does this mean that Universal has decided to – and here comes that dread word – reboot one of their biggest franchises?

Maybe, maybe… If so, it would contradict recent whispers that tentative feelers have been put out to a major director to fill Greengrass’ shoes, but there’s no doubting the appeal of a reboot for Universal. If they plough ahead with Bourne IV, they’ll have to persuade Damon to come back - a tough call, given his very public vow to work only with Greengrass on the movie. But by rebooting, with a new director and a younger actor, the problem is solved.

And in a way, this could mean that audiences could well get the best of both worlds – they would get a prequel that shows just how bad- Bourne was before he became the amnesiac assassin with a conscience, and eventually get to see an older, wiser Damon reprise the role for one final time.

Of course, the plot of Bourne IV has been something of a thorny issue, with multiple screenwriters no closer to cracking the story. And Damon admits that they’re none the wiser. “If you have any ideas, call Universal,” he laughed. “They’d love for you to get in touch!”

[dinovelvet]

Of course, the plot of Bourne IV has been something of a thorny issue, with multiple screenwriters no closer to cracking the story. And Damon admits that they’re none the wiser. “If you have any ideas, call Universal,” he laughed. “They’d love for you to get in touch!”

LOL. Three films in, and they're already out of ideas? Oh well, I'm sure they'll find some more things they can steal from Bond sooner or later.

[Trident]

But the core of the Bourne film series' plot, Bourne against his former employers, is effectively told to the end. Him picking up swimming after he supposedly floated dead in the water was only going a full circle with Bourne's story and a double finger to the Christians In Action. This way of the road doesn't really lead anywhere interesting. The part of Bourne becoming Bourne is still a secret and I can see why the prospect of a prequel would seem so very aluring now.

[Bucky]

not sure if this has been posted already but the bourne series bluray set is pretty cheap on amazon.co.uk at less than 18 gbp. the set is region free so it should work in any player, costs about 30 usd shipped.

[jaguar007]

from total film
Definitely no more Bourne for Damon
Time for the series to be Bourne again?

Bourne fans be warned: this news could lead to rage, depression or a prolonged sulking session.

While out and about promoting Green Zone this weekend, director Paul Greengrass confirmed that he will never make another Bourne film.

Meanwhile, Matt Damon said he’d never make another Bourne film without Greengrass. In other words, get ready to re-watch Identity-Ultimatum a lot: there won’t be any more Bourne films starring Matt Damon. Ever.

There were, however, hints dropped that the franchise could live on in a new “rebooted and reenergized” form. CHUD spoke to Greengrass, who said:

“When I was honest with myself last Autumn, and I was starting to get going on other things, you just come to a point where you realize you’ve done it.

"You don’t have anything more to contribute to a franchise that needs to continue obviously, and in order to continue, a franchise needs to be rebooted and reenergized by new perspectives.”

So, would this mean a prequel re-casting Bourne younger? Matt Damon definitely things it’s a possibility:

“I think they have a good way to do a prequel with someone else, and basically make it about the Bourne identity, the actual identity. Any studio is interested in making it an evergreen that can just go on and on and on, and it never will with our character because he’s resolved his issues now.

“He’s got his memory back three times now. I don’t think anybody wants to see me say ‘I don’t remember’ again, but I think what we could do is that you can do some movies with another actor, anyone, whether it’s Ryan Gosling or Russell Crowe or Denzel Washington.

“He’s Jason Bourne, and at the end of his one or two or three movies, you see them getting ready to pass the identity onto me, so it just becomes like a 007, it becomes the name that they give this certain person who is uniquely positioned.”

We'll tag this one The Spider-Man Effect, though many a franchise have tried it (off the top of our heads, there was that Young Indiana Jones show starring Sean Patrick Flanery back in the '90s). Is it right for Bourne?

Well, there's stacks of backstory there, and plenty of places to go with it. But if this just becomes a case of The Bourne Overkill, we're checking out right here.

Is Bourne Bourne without Damon?

[Loomis]

there won’t be any more Bourne films starring Matt Damon. Ever.

Yeah, just like Connery said "never again", and Ford was done with Indy Jones after LAST CRUSADE, and Stallone swore blind that ROCKY IV would be his final appearance as the Italian Stallion, and Willis promised no further outings for John McClane about a decade ago.

I'd almost stake my life that Damon will play Bourne again, although it'll probably take at least fifteen years and maybe a lot longer, and there'll certainly be an attempt in the meantime to reboot/prequelize the franchise with another lead actor. But you can guarantee that, if nothing else, a jawdroppingly humungous paycheque will lure Damon back to the role sooner or later.

[Safari Suit]

Usually I think the "it worked for James Bond so it will work for [x]" line of reasoning is insufficient or inappropriate, but when that [x] is Bourne I agree with it. Bourne has already had his Barry Nelson in the form of Richard Chamberlain so I don't see why he can't have a Moore or Craig too.

[Trident]

there won’t be any more Bourne films starring Matt Damon. Ever.

Yeah, just like Connery said "never again", and Ford was done with Indy Jones after LAST CRUSADE, and Stallone swore blind that ROCKY IV would be his final appearance as the Italian Stallion, and Willis promised no further outings for John McClane about a decade ago.

I'd almost stake my life that Damon will play Bourne again, although it'll probably take at least fifteen years and maybe a lot longer, and there'll certainly be an attempt in the meantime to reboot/prequelize the franchise with another lead actor. But you can guarantee that, if nothing else, a jawdroppingly humungous paycheque will lure Damon back to the role sooner or later.

Word for word what I typed; you beat me to it.

[jaguar007]

Usually I think the "it worked for James Bond so it will work for [x]" line of reasoning is insufficient or inappropriate, but when that [x] is Bourne I agree with it. Bourne has already had his Barry Nelson in the form of Richard Chamberlain so I don't see why he can't have a Moore or Craig too.

I would actually enjoy a Bourne movie where Jason Bourne makes jokes, wiggles his eyebrows, smokes cigars and wears a Safari Suit

[The Richmond Spy]

director Paul Greengrass confirmed that he will never make another Bourne film.

In other news: Peyton Manning confirmed he will never make another commercial.


I'd really hate for them to get the wrong guy to do a reboot. Given the lack of character development in the films, we are really forced to rely on Matt Damon to interpret the character. I can't think of any actors who I could see filling those shoes any time soon...maybe Chris Pine? They aren't big shoes as his acting is not flawless in the three films, but they are unique shoes.

[dodge]

director Paul Greengrass confirmed that he will never make another Bourne film.

In other news: Peyton Manning confirmed he will never make another commercial.


I'd really hate for them to get the wrong guy to do a reboot. Given the lack of character development in the films, we are really forced to rely on Matt Damon to interpret the character. I can't think of any actors who I could see filling those shoes any time soon...maybe Chris Pine? They aren't big shoes as his acting is not flawless in the three films, but they are unique shoes.

I haven't seen THE GREEN ZONE yet. But, judging from the tepid reviews, it may be time to bring on board a very different director. Mr. Jitterbug is talking about doing a romantic comedy.

[Roebuck]

director Paul Greengrass confirmed that he will never make another Bourne film.

In other news: Peyton Manning confirmed he will never make another commercial.


I'd really hate for them to get the wrong guy to do a reboot. Given the lack of character development in the films, we are really forced to rely on Matt Damon to interpret the character. I can't think of any actors who I could see filling those shoes any time soon...maybe Chris Pine? They aren't big shoes as his acting is not flawless in the three films, but they are unique shoes.

I haven't seen THE GREEN ZONE yet. But, judging from the tepid reviews, it may be time to bring on board a very different director. Mr. Jitterbug is talking about doing a romantic comedy.

Was reading an interview with Damon where he makes the comment, ‘There might be actors who don’t like losing fights in movies but I never cared about that stuff…I win enough fights in the boring films’. Now maybe it’s a typo or something, but it sounds like an actor disrespecting the franchise that did CPR on his career. Wonder what’s brought about the change in attitude?

[Ernst Stavro Blofeld Jr.]

He's never afraid to crap on other stuff to promote his current projects. He's done it with Bond to try to help Bourne, and now apparently he's trying to make Bourne look boring compared to this new crap?

Does he realize that out of the three Bourne films, the best is still the one that Paul Greengrass had nothing to do with?

[Safari Suit]

No, but then it most people don't seem to "realise" that either (although personally, I "realise" it).

[Roebuck]

I’m coming around to the idea that it’s a transcription error and he actually said ‘Bourne films’. Must be. Tried checking the on-line version but couldn’t see the interview reproduced there.

[The Richmond Spy]

No, but then it most people don't seem to "realise" that either (although personally, I "realise" it).

I do realize it, but a lot of that has to do with the organization that is in place in that film. Once we lose Conklin, the three main assassins (still don't think the one killed in TBS is the same guy from TBI), and Abbott, it all feels disconnected to me. Then the shaky cam enters the films...

[Ernst Stavro Blofeld Jr.]

But there was shaky cam in Identity, it's just that the director (Doug Liman) wasn't a moron who thought spastic camera movements=tension.

[SecretAgentFan]

People paid to see a Jason Bourne movie, not a Matt Damon movie, as the weak box office results for THE GREEN ZONE so obviously demonstrate.

The weak box office results for THE GREEN ZONE demonstrate only one thing: American audiences don´t like to see Iraq War-based films right now.

Is Matt Damon a movie star? Definitely. Can he open a picture? As with every star, it depends on the picture. Was Sean Connery a movie star? Definitely. Could he open a picture in which he wasn´t Bond? Hardly. Same with Harrison Ford. Sylvester Stallone. Bruce Willis. It´s just extremely difficult for an actor to leave a franchise role behind and be accepted by the public in other stories.

Also - these days, stars are no guarantee anymore to open a picture. Every major star of the last three decades is struggling. Even Will Smith who seemed to be untouchable stumbled with "Seven Pounds".

In regard to THE GREEN ZONE: My take is that it was not only hurt by the Iraq War-background but also because it was marketed as a BOURNE picture. Greengrass directs Damon in an action thriller - nothing´s surprising about that anymore. When I saw the trailer I only thought: wait for the DVD or even TV. It won´t be anything that I have seen from those guys already. Actually, Greengrass seems to be a one-trick-pony if he continues to film every story the same way.

[Trident]

Frankly, I doubt that the Bourne films's success owed too much to Ludlum and the books. The Ludlums weren't the rage any more the way they used to in the 70's/80's. They have tons of fans still, but the plot of the film-versions of TBI/TBS/TBU isn't completely different from the books without good reason. It's also evident that the hero, as splendidly depicted in the films by Damon, is an entirely different character from the books, younger, with a different past and a different motivation. Apart from 'Bourne' and 'Ludlum' on the film posters, there is really next to nothing of the books in them.

Which suggests to me that audiences would have to be nearly outragously stupid if they needed three different films to confirm that they're not getting book Bourne or Ludlum at all with each helping. Either that, or Ludlum and the books were pretty much of no concern to them, and they just went to see Damon in an exceptionally good action flick.

I suppose it's the latter motivation that drove people in droves into theaters.

[SecretAgentFan]

[The Richmond Spy]

Better start cranking out the Bourne's now. We haven't seen a Bourne film since Summer 2007...which means even if they started today, then it'd be a 4 year gap. The film that started it all (TBI) was filmed about 10 years ago...oh, where has the time gone?

[Automan]

The Bourne Identitiy; changed our perspective of action movies.
The concept that we knew nothing about the hero; was poles aprt from Bond.

Now after 2 sequals, we must accept, that we know what will happen to Bourne through the couse of the film.

Fast brutal action; hard hitting chases; and against the odds, even though he's hurt, winning in the end. That we have seen before.

[Matt_13]

Tony Gilroy has been hired to write a new script.

http://www.heatvisio...-to-basics.html

[DR76]

As for new Bond movies using ideas from Ludlum's books, didn't the previous films mostly discard the novels completely? I haven't read any of them personally.

Why is that necessary? Why adapt the John Gardner or the Raymond Benson novels?

[Loomis]

Some very interesting news for fans of this series:

http://www.mtv.com/n...610/story.jhtml

Call it the Bourne Determination. Despite the participation of star Matt Damon and two-time franchise director Paul Greengrass being in doubt, Universal is pushing forward with plans for a fourth "Bourne" movie, tentatively called "The Bourne Legacy." And word is that, in contrast to earlier rumors that the new flick would be a reboot or a prequel, "Legacy" will be a straight sequel.

According to reports from Variety and Deadline.com, Universal has hired Tony Gilroy to write the script. Gilroy wrote the first three movies and has also been tapped to write a franchise bible, lending credence to the idea that the fourth film is only the beginning of Universal's big-screen plans for the "Bourne" universe. "Legacy" — which will not be based on "The Bourne Legacy," an Eric Lustabader-penned novel in the Robert Ludlum series — is looking at a 2012 release date.

The news that the forthcoming "Bourne" film will be a sequel comes as something of a surprise. Earlier this year, Damon said the next installment would likely be a prequel. But whether or not Damon and Greengrass will take part in the fourth film is an open question. Back in February, Damon said he wouldn't reprise the role without Greengrass, who bowed out of his directing duties last fall. Yet both men left the door open to returning to the franchise down the line.

"We see a very clear way that they could go [with the story] that wouldn't interfere with the series that we have and that might give it a chance to have a life right now and if we come back and did another one, even after that without us," .

That "very clear way" seemingly involved rebooting the franchise with another actor taking Bourne's identity, or name given to a uniquely positioned government operative. Such a storytelling technique would easily allow Damon and Greengrass to reenter the fold in the future.

But with Gilroy back in charge of storytelling duties, there's always the chance that Damon and Greengrass can be enticed to return. As the director himself , he maintains a good relationship with the studio and he plans to work with Damon again.

"I'm going to continue to make movies for Universal," Greengrass told us in March. "I'm going to continue to make movies with Matt hopefully. They'll undoubtedly continue to make 'Bourne' movies. So it's all good news."