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Another View of LTK's "Flopping"


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#271 Mike00spy

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 03:40 PM

but the problem in America was TD wasn't favoured that much.



Maybe.

However, with the rapid decline of any Bond film (no matter what the actor), it is really hard to make that point.


I guess so . The rapid decline was due to remote control set up of Bond films. It seemed the same people behind the movies without being able to do much. FYEO and OP quite good but things may have got slow later on. Rogs age is not the worst thing abt ATAK but the bland script and direction was. I still standby the fact Glen and Dalton not very good combo. TLD opens great but the final act doesn't do much.


But, starting with Moonraker all films dropped from the previous one. There was no exception.

If you look at IMDB ratings for the Bond films in this time span:

We have FYEO rating higher than MR- but there was till a drop
We have TLD raintg higher than AVTAK- but there was still a drop

(I can even thrown that EVERY Bond film in the 80s (besides NSNA) is rated higher or equal to Moonraker)

It is very hard to argue the films suffered due to quality.

Edited by Mike00spy, 06 July 2009 - 03:45 PM.


#272 Dekard77

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 03:57 PM

Yes quite agree on that, certain area's and overall Bond look was a bit missing even for '89. I have been attacked many times for pointing it. TWINE also had a good budget but as a film it was rather uneven(mostly the story and direction). I never said budgets alone guaranteed a movie's success , what I meant is that the marketing, lead actor and stiff competition would have hurt Bond in '89. I had to answer a question from a poster why a Budget is important to an Event Movie!! QOS is the best example I can give a film that maintains classy Bond.
I had to cut and paste the article as I was constantly being told how I was re writing history etc.


Out of curiosity - what was the exact budget for LICENCE TO KILL and THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH? But that's not the budget as stated in Wikipedia, IMDB or Rotten Tomatoes, yet the expenses combined to make a feature film?

Ha? So what killed LTK box office in USA? Common if the studios needed their star they would get it. Of course they have their own agenda considering they fund the movie but the producers have to be clever to fight it or give in when necessary. If Cubby wanted RM for FYEO or OP then he would get him , if the the studio wanted SC for DAF they would ask him to come and work with Cubby. I guess it's fair considering both are looking after their own future. The studio didn't want Dalton and it's stated due his poor performance in USA. This was in Mi6 article as well unless you think it's wrong.
You claim the wrong people saw LTK? Right ........so does it mean the people in the States that went to see the movie could have been the wrong crowd while the others just waited at home giving a pass to the movie so they can watch someting better was the right crowd? Eh? Why did the wrong crowd go to see LTK ? The right crowd didn't like a movie they couldn't care less or had bad word of mouth? What is your lame excuse for that?

You pretty much proved you have no idea about what is being discussed. Thanks . Now I can finally stop responding to you.

Right. I was trying to make this peter out on civil terms. In the long haul of life this is not up there with my priorities.

My quip about "the wrong people" watching LICENCE TO KILL was an attempt at sarcasm. It was meant as a quip. You know - comedy? A gentle touch? But if people have no sense of humour then that is their loss. It certainly ain't mine.

Unfortunately I think it is you Deckard77 who doesn't really have a clue about what is going on in the instance of 1989's James Bond entry - especially when your views appear to be formulated by cut and paste jobs based on other people's efforts (always a bad thing in my book).

A few facts -

LICENCE TO KILL was NOT "killed" at the US box office. If you want to speak to Eon and Danjaq's accountants of the time I can give you their numbers? It was no THUNDERBALL or MOONRAKER granted, but it made its money. The Eon mantra is if a Bond film makes at least one dollar profit then they will do another.

Can I mention the word "ratings" to you? Does that ring any bells? A certain proportion of James Bond's casual fans (good point by the way earlier in this thread from someone) were unable to see the film as its darker tone meant that in some territories (including Britain) the film received a higher and financially restrictive rating, disabling certain younger people from seeing it. The film did not merit such a restriction (though the violent very adult world of the South American drug cartels are one of those ratings pariahs, for good and bad reasons).

Part of LICENCE TO KILL's ridiculous '15' rating that was because, in the example of Great Britain, the BBFC (the British Board Of Film Classification) were going through a change in their ratings system and that uncertainty made LICENCE TO KILL one of its high profile victims. It was wrong for the BBFC to draw their line in the sand with a Bond film though the film was different to what had gone before.

The new '12' rating (which LICENCE TO KILL should have got first time round) was being eased in. The '12' rating had not yet been established, certainly not in the public's psyche. MADAME SOUSZATZKA was the first '12' followed by BATMAN, which everyone remembers as being the first mainstream, widely seen film under that new banner. A year or so later the boundaries started to weaken a bit and the likes of TERMINATOR II were granted a '15' certificate when it was blatantly an '18'.
LICENCE TO KILL did lose some of its younger audiences (at the cinema), but the film was eventually granted that deserved '12' upon video release (though not in its first run). It is worth remembering that KILL did very well on video release and that is part of its overall 'takings' tally too.

But if you think what I have just said shows I have "no idea of what is being discussed" then perhaps further discussion with you on this subject is indeed futile.

And as dedicated and as meticulous as a fan site like MI6 is, they are not the last word in the reality and history of making James Bond films. In fact, the release reaction to LICENCE TO KILL was not quite like MI6 have reported it. To give one very small example of the articles you keep pasting up and their overall accuracy, the night of the LICENCE TO KILL premiere in London was VERY HOT. London was a sticky ghost town that evening (as is evident in ITV's then coverage of the premiere). And a very high profile '15' rated Bond film (something that had riled Timothy Dalton who made his views known when interviewed at the time) had instantly cancelled its younger fans who are the mainstay of the crowds at such an event, regardless of whether they are going to see the film or not. The Prince and Princess Of Wales well documented marriage problems sat uneasy with their presence too.

There is always a wider perspective. MI6 have tried to highlight the stats but they tend not to - as most "this is how it was" reports on Bond and cinema - look at the contexts, cultural conditions and realities of the 'business' we call 'show'.

I am honestly not trying to lock horns for the sake of it. It just personally riles me when people quote people quoting people and chinese whispers start to erode the truth, especially with 007 films which I hold very dear for a variety of personal and enjoyment reasons.


An excellent post. And proof - not that I, for one, needed any - that if anyone doesn't know what he's talking about on this thread, it isn't you...

Ok bad weather and ratings. Thanks for the valuable insight. No more proof needed.

Charmed I'm sure. I will know better than to let personal insight and experience get in the way of what the internet tells me. My fault.


Ok I will add what 'internet' also to the list of my Bond mags, movie mags and other info I had seen into a list of things I should not use to understand the film (or any other movie). I might as well sit in meditation chamber of Prof Joe Butcher and wonder what really happened. The ratings for Batman was also PG-13 in USA but didn't hurt the movie? Bond was trying to be edgier and while I did like it it never managed to get more people into the cinema's Stateside. Otherwise the numbers would have shown. Most posters also pointed out how audience wanted a change from Bond so maybe like what I said before it wouldn't have mattered at that time.
Having been to and standing out at a few Bond premiers I can tell you that the cold weather was no incentive but tha fans all waited to catch a glimpse of 007 and his co stars and well wishers. Oh well I guess none of that will matter beyond your thoughts.
My point still stands , LTK didn't get the high numbers it was hoping for or even close to it's competitors that year in USA. Most people here said TD was not accepted well in TLD and LTK was expected to be a drop. Did you not agree to that? Others claim too many Bonds etc but etiher way it did nothing to help Bond in '89. The direction of a serious Bond needed argument can be taken into account after seeing the joke that was ATAK but the problem in America was TD wasn't favoured that much.

Who said A VIEW TO A KILL was "a joke"? Not the studios as they bankrolled another Bond film immediately that eventually became THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS.


Can I count in Rog? He did say it was his least favourite too. It's just one of those films that never worked. Not when I saw it then or now. Terrible Bond flick . Did I say the film was a flop? MGM/UA would do anything to get Bond movies made at that time to keep the studio afloat.

And still will now... you watch what happens to the release time of BOND 23.

I am obviously biased on A VIEW TO A KILL but my defence for the jury...


It just wasn't that good. I don't blame his age for all the mistakes (under used villain Zorin) but the story and production qualities just wasn't there.That partly is my biggest grudge against LTK.. Am partly biased to the fact Peter Lamont and Glen didn't understand certain nuance's to Bond. FYEO is excellent but little by little I felt they lost their way. TLD was a script written mostly to suit someone like Rog which tone changed with Dalton's seriousness.
Thank god for Eon .You see the way they (MGM/UA) handled Pink Panther. The films were kinda funny but nowhere near to originals.

#273 Safari Suit

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 04:11 PM

But, starting with Moonraker all films dropped from the previous one. There was no exception.

If you look at IMDB ratings for the Bond films in this time span:

We have FYEO rating higher than MR- but there was till a drop
We have TLD raintg higher than AVTAK- but there was still a drop

(I can even thrown that EVERY Bond film in the 80s (besides NSNA) is rated higher or equal to Moonraker)

It is very hard to argue the films suffered due to quality.


Yes, but I don't think IMDB ratings in 2009 have all that much to do with how general audiences percieved the films in the 1980s.

#274 Mike00spy

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 04:12 PM

But, starting with Moonraker all films dropped from the previous one. There was no exception.

If you look at IMDB ratings for the Bond films in this time span:

We have FYEO rating higher than MR- but there was till a drop
We have TLD raintg higher than AVTAK- but there was still a drop

(I can even thrown that EVERY Bond film in the 80s (besides NSNA) is rated higher or equal to Moonraker)

It is very hard to argue the films suffered due to quality.


Yes, but I don't think IMDB ratings in 2009 have all that much to do with how general audiences percieved the films in the 1980s.


That's very true- I wish there was a way to test what audience reaction was at the time.

#275 sthgilyadgnivileht

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 05:12 PM

It just wasn't that good. I don't blame his age for all the mistakes (under used villain Zorin) but the story and production qualities just wasn't there.That partly is my biggest grudge against LTK.. Am partly biased to the fact Peter Lamont and Glen didn't understand certain nuance's to Bond. FYEO is excellent but little by little I felt they lost their way. TLD was a script written mostly to suit someone like Rog which tone changed with Dalton's seriousness.
Thank god for Eon .You see the way they (MGM/UA) handled Pink Panther. The films were kinda funny but nowhere near to originals.

With respect I differ to your opinions here, and I am not really sure what you mean either.
Bond was the only film series produced on a two yearly basis in the eighties, and I for one am amazed how the quality was sustained throughout that decade. I don't think any other series has achieved such a feat, or will do so again.

#276 Dekard77

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 05:25 PM

It just wasn't that good. I don't blame his age for all the mistakes (under used villain Zorin) but the story and production qualities just wasn't there.That partly is my biggest grudge against LTK.. Am partly biased to the fact Peter Lamont and Glen didn't understand certain nuance's to Bond. FYEO is excellent but little by little I felt they lost their way. TLD was a script written mostly to suit someone like Rog which tone changed with Dalton's seriousness.
Thank god for Eon .You see the way they (MGM/UA) handled Pink Panther. The films were kinda funny but nowhere near to originals.

With respect I differ to your opinions here, and I am not really sure what you mean either.
Bond was the only film series produced on a two yearly basis in the eighties, and I for one am amazed how the quality was sustained throughout that decade. I don't think any other series has achieved such a feat, or will do so again.


Sorry , I don't mean they are not full of quality or originality but comparing it to the earlier Bonds of 60's and 70's something about the they way they looked didn't appeal to me. I said above I never liked Peter Lamont. He works well with Cameron but not with Bond. I never liked AWTAK but others were quite good. I just felt that Hamilton,Gilbert and Young understood a certain image of Bond. I can't expect him to be the same throughout but I do miss that. Casino Royale certainly captured most things I missed about Bond including the travelogue.
Sorry if I made it seem Bond was not of ANY standards in the 80's.

#277 Zorin Industries

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 07:10 PM

It just wasn't that good. I don't blame his age for all the mistakes (under used villain Zorin) but the story and production qualities just wasn't there.That partly is my biggest grudge against LTK.. Am partly biased to the fact Peter Lamont and Glen didn't understand certain nuance's to Bond. FYEO is excellent but little by little I felt they lost their way. TLD was a script written mostly to suit someone like Rog which tone changed with Dalton's seriousness.
Thank god for Eon .You see the way they (MGM/UA) handled Pink Panther. The films were kinda funny but nowhere near to originals.

With respect I differ to your opinions here, and I am not really sure what you mean either.
Bond was the only film series produced on a two yearly basis in the eighties, and I for one am amazed how the quality was sustained throughout that decade. I don't think any other series has achieved such a feat, or will do so again.


Sorry , I don't mean they are not full of quality or originality but comparing it to the earlier Bonds of 60's and 70's something about the they way they looked didn't appeal to me. I said above I never liked Peter Lamont. He works well with Cameron but not with Bond. I never liked AWTAK but others were quite good. I just felt that Hamilton,Gilbert and Young understood a certain image of Bond. I can't expect him to be the same throughout but I do miss that. Casino Royale certainly captured most things I missed about Bond including the travelogue.
Sorry if I made it seem Bond was not of ANY standards in the 80's.

But Peter Lamont worked on the 1960's Bond films too. He designed various elements of GOLDFINGER, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE and THUNDERBALL. His stamp is there too.

#278 sthgilyadgnivileht

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 07:19 PM

Sorry , I don't mean they are not full of quality or originality but comparing it to the earlier Bonds of 60's and 70's something about the they way they looked didn't appeal to me. I said above I never liked Peter Lamont. He works well with Cameron but not with Bond. I never liked AWTAK but others were quite good. I just felt that Hamilton,Gilbert and Young understood a certain image of Bond. I can't expect him to be the same throughout but I do miss that. Casino Royale certainly captured most things I missed about Bond including the travelogue.
Sorry if I made it seem Bond was not of ANY standards in the 80's.

That makes more sense.

I also think when LTK was released no one would have guessed this was going to be Dalton's or the last Bond film for a while. People were expecting him to carry on in the role like Moore did.


Dalton guessed correctly in 1989 that that would be his last Bond film. If I recall correctly, according to the summer 1989 issue of BONDAGE, Dalton was interviewed about LTK and made the comment that 'it was his feeling that this film was the last'. When asked to clarify whether he meant it was his last film or the series as a whole, he said 'the whole lot of them', meaning it was the end of the road for the producers, as they would not be making anymore. No surprise, then, that Cubby put the series up for sale one year later.

I don't have that copy of BONDAGE handy (it's in storage) but maybe someone can look up the reference and tell us exactly what was said in the interview.

Yes true, (although I wasn't thinking about the cast and crew when I wrote that post, just trying to remember the UK atmosphere at the time of LTK's release). Its interesting about Dalton's comments and that he said he had that feeling. Makes me wonder if he had a bit of heads up that Broccoli was going to put Danjaq up for sale....
I think i'm right in saying it was about the time when the news hit that the series was up for sale that the UK public caught on that Bond may not continue as it had done before.

#279 jaguar007

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 08:11 PM

Dalton guessed correctly in 1989 that that would be his last Bond film. If I recall correctly, according to the summer 1989 issue of BONDAGE, Dalton was interviewed about LTK and made the comment that 'it was his feeling that this film was the last'. When asked to clarify whether he meant it was his last film or the series as a whole, he said 'the whole lot of them', meaning it was the end of the road for the producers, as they would not be making anymore. No surprise, then, that Cubby put the series up for sale one year later.

I don't have that copy of BONDAGE handy (it's in storage) but maybe someone can look up the reference and tell us exactly what was said in the interview.


I remember that article as well. It also said that he was not saying that with any real authority, just a gut feeling he had.

#280 Tybre

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 09:05 PM

I also think when LTK was released no one would have guessed this was going to be Dalton's or the last Bond film for a while. People were expecting him to carry on in the role like Moore did.


Dalton guessed correctly in 1989 that that would be his last Bond film. If I recall correctly, according to the summer 1989 issue of BONDAGE, Dalton was interviewed about LTK and made the comment that 'it was his feeling that this film was the last'. When asked to clarify whether he meant it was his last film or the series as a whole, he said 'the whole lot of them', meaning it was the end of the road for the producers, as they would not be making anymore. No surprise, then, that Cubby put the series up for sale one year later.

I don't have that copy of BONDAGE handy (it's in storage) but maybe someone can look up the reference and tell us exactly what was said in the interview.


Don't have the online transcript handy, but it's basically what you said. He said it was the end of Bond as a whole. Everyone involved was convinced there would be no more James Bond films, at least not for a very long time.

#281 Dekard77

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 05:22 AM

I also think when LTK was released no one would have guessed this was going to be Dalton's or the last Bond film for a while. People were expecting him to carry on in the role like Moore did.


Dalton guessed correctly in 1989 that that would be his last Bond film. If I recall correctly, according to the summer 1989 issue of BONDAGE, Dalton was interviewed about LTK and made the comment that 'it was his feeling that this film was the last'. When asked to clarify whether he meant it was his last film or the series as a whole, he said 'the whole lot of them', meaning it was the end of the road for the producers, as they would not be making anymore. No surprise, then, that Cubby put the series up for sale one year later.

I don't have that copy of BONDAGE handy (it's in storage) but maybe someone can look up the reference and tell us exactly what was said in the interview.


I think this was in quote in one Mi6 articles but i also couldn't find it. I did take a copy at one point but no way I will remember where I filed that as well. Also there was an interesting article about former marketing guy at MGM/UA or Eon claiming the future of Dalton and how Broccoli defended him up until his resignation from the role. Those Lark commercials showed the physical side of Dalton and it would have been seriously cool to see him do that in one more Bond film. Oh well what's done is done!


#282 Dekard77

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:04 AM

I remember that article as well. It also said that he was not saying that with any real authority, just a gut feeling he had.


Call it what you want...a "hunch"...a "sixth sense"...a "woman's intuition"...I'm just telling you that Dalton knew more than he was telling. My baseless conjecture leads me to believe he'd been hearing things from inside the corridors of MGM and figured that not only was the series going to be put on ice for a while, but when it came back it would have been gone so long that he probably wouldn't be offered the role again anyway.


http://www.mi6.co.uk...d_17_intro.php3
Perhaps this link will prove to some extent that what your thinking is not so far off from mine as well.

#283 Tybre

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 06:51 PM

And, like I said, when you've got someone like Charles Juroe saying "Dalton is the Bond of record", you better start looking for another job...and quick. That was one of the worst, lamest, most transparent votes of no-confidence I have ever seen or heard. I mean, clearly Dalton was "the Bond of record" because he hadn't been replaced yet, but notice that Juroe didn't go out of his way to enthusiastically trumpet the praises of Dalton and assure the press that Dalton would indeed return.


If I recall the exact same thing was said of Pierce Brosnan before Daniel Craig was confirmed.

#284 Zorin Industries

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 06:52 PM

http://www.mi6.co.uk...d_17_intro.php3
Perhaps this link will prove to some extent that what your thinking is not so far off from mine as well.


That article is slightly incorrect. I'm not aware of there being any firm plans to film BOND17 for a Summer '94 release date, and the article says that TRUE LIES came out and forced a delay on the project, and "Pierce Brosnan was then cast as the 5th James Bond actor". Well, actually, if my chronology is correct, Brosnan was officially unveiled to the press as 007 in April of 1994 and TRUE LIES didn't come out until June or July of 1994. It was after TRUE LIES came out that the studio suggested pushing the start date back 6 months in order to rework parts of the script too similar to TRUE LIES. If the movie had started production in the summer of 94 as planned, we'd have seen Goldeneye 6 months earlier. I believe whatever money the Craig/Brosnan films have made have still left $30-50 million on the table by not opening up in the summer.

And, like I said, when you've got someone like Charles Juroe saying "Dalton is the Bond of record", you better start looking for another job...and quick. That was one of the worst, lamest, most transparent votes of no-confidence I have ever seen or heard. I mean, clearly Dalton was "the Bond of record" because he hadn't been replaced yet, but notice that Juroe didn't go out of his way to enthusiastically trumpet the praises of Dalton and assure the press that Dalton would indeed return.

Dalton got it right back in 1989: he was history, and he knew it. And his quote about the whole series coming to an end may also have been a way to make it seem as if he wasn't the problem, but that the whole series had gone on too long and was now irrelevant. Truth is, he wasn't THE problem, but he was certainly A problem. Oddly enough, he may have simply just been too good for the role. He wanted to imbue the role with more than was really there, when at the end of the film the audience really just wants exotic locales, beautiful women, stunts, cool cars and gadgets, and a plot that involves millions of lives in the balance (and not two back-to-back films involving drug smuggling). Dalton was a classically trained actor essentially being asked to make more of the film than what existed on paper, and while he may have been good enough to do it, the rest of the creative team was not. And it's not like I don't think Glen or Maibaum, etc... weren't capable...but once you've done 5-15 films in a certain style or way, it becomes all you know.

I like Purvis and Wade, but I think they've been involved too long know. Barbara and Michael have provided one of the best, most balanced sets of 4-6 film runs in the series history, and part of that has been by trying different directors on 5 of the last 6 films, as well as by rotating writers.

Had Barbara and Michael been allowed to take creative and financial control of EON sooner (like, back in the 1980's), the history of the 80's Bonds may have been a bit different...and better, especially for actors like Dalton who wanted to class up the material a bit, but was given a weak script, lackluster direction, and almost no one near his equal to act off of. Dalton's failures are not failures of imagination, but failure to get the needed support on all creative levels to make his vision of Bond something that audiences could get used to and excited about.

There are indeed inaccuracies in the MI6 story. One being that Pinewood Studios was booked up for BOND '91 in the September of 1990.

The TRUE LIES story is dubious at best when you consider that the film's content would have been known about WAY before TRUE LIES came out and GOLDENEYE was touted. And remember that Peter Lamont worked on TRUE LIES.....

For the record, Dalton left Easter time 1994 and Brosnan and GOLDENEYE were publically 'unveiled' on - I think (and there is a reason I know this) June 8th 1994.

#285 Royal Dalton

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:09 PM

Dalton got it right back in 1989: he was history, and he knew it.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good sound bite, will you.

#286 Judo chop

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:13 PM

Truth is, he wasn't THE problem, but he was certainly A problem. Oddly enough, he may have simply just been too good for the role. He wanted to imbue the role with more than was really there, when at the end of the film the audience really just wants exotic locales, beautiful women, stunts, cool cars and gadgets, and a plot that involves millions of lives in the balance (and not two back-to-back films involving drug smuggling). Dalton was a classically trained actor essentially being asked to make more of the film than what existed on paper, and while he may have been good enough to do it, the rest of the creative team was not.

I believe that is very close to the truth.

#287 Zorin Industries

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:15 PM

Dalton got it right back in 1989: he was history, and he knew it.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good sound bite, will you.

And that wasn't even a good soundbite.

#288 Dekard77

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:16 PM

http://www.mi6.co.uk...d_17_intro.php3
Perhaps this link will prove to some extent that what your thinking is not so far off from mine as well.


That article is slightly incorrect. I'm not aware of there being any firm plans to film BOND17 for a Summer '94 release date, and the article says that TRUE LIES came out and forced a delay on the project, and "Pierce Brosnan was then cast as the 5th James Bond actor". Well, actually, if my chronology is correct, Brosnan was officially unveiled to the press as 007 in April of 1994 and TRUE LIES didn't come out until June or July of 1994. It was after TRUE LIES came out that the studio suggested pushing the start date back 6 months in order to rework parts of the script too similar to TRUE LIES. If the movie had started production in the summer of 94 as planned, we'd have seen Goldeneye 6 months earlier. I believe whatever money the Craig/Brosnan films have made have still left $30-50 million on the table by not opening up in the summer.

And, like I said, when you've got someone like Charles Juroe saying "Dalton is the Bond of record", you better start looking for another job...and quick. That was one of the worst, lamest, most transparent votes of no-confidence I have ever seen or heard. I mean, clearly Dalton was "the Bond of record" because he hadn't been replaced yet, but notice that Juroe didn't go out of his way to enthusiastically trumpet the praises of Dalton and assure the press that Dalton would indeed return.

Dalton got it right back in 1989: he was history, and he knew it. And his quote about the whole series coming to an end may also have been a way to make it seem as if he wasn't the problem, but that the whole series had gone on too long and was now irrelevant. Truth is, he wasn't THE problem, but he was certainly A problem. Oddly enough, he may have simply just been too good for the role. He wanted to imbue the role with more than was really there, when at the end of the film the audience really just wants exotic locales, beautiful women, stunts, cool cars and gadgets, and a plot that involves millions of lives in the balance (and not two back-to-back films involving drug smuggling). Dalton was a classically trained actor essentially being asked to make more of the film than what existed on paper, and while he may have been good enough to do it, the rest of the creative team was not. And it's not like I don't think Glen or Maibaum, etc... weren't capable...but once you've done 5-15 films in a certain style or way, it becomes all you know.

I like Purvis and Wade, but I think they've been involved too long know. Barbara and Michael have provided one of the best, most balanced sets of 4-6 film runs in the series history, and part of that has been by trying different directors on 5 of the last 6 films, as well as by rotating writers.

Had Barbara and Michael been allowed to take creative and financial control of EON sooner (like, back in the 1980's), the history of the 80's Bonds may have been a bit different...and better, especially for actors like Dalton who wanted to class up the material a bit, but was given a weak script, lackluster direction, and almost no one near his equal to act off of. Dalton's failures are not failures of imagination, but failure to get the needed support on all creative levels to make his vision of Bond something that audiences could get used to and excited about.

Yeah never bought the True Lies bit considering, but Peter Lamont could have known a bit more since he was working on both films.Maybe even to avoid comparison between to two films very quickly and get crushed like in '89. I also agreed that Dalton needed a better director and screenwriters to suit his strengths but the pressures of releasing one film after another could have prohibited that at the time(or Cubby's remote control management). Glen to some extent would have been exhausted am pretty sure of it. It's just normal. Mostly the timing was all wrong to release LTK even-though Bond was at his toughest he was not appreciated in full light.
Dalton would have liked the Bond world as he was looking for stable career. He looked like he was having a whole lot of fun in Rocketeer. I watched that film in Germany in German until I saw it again in English. Hehe.
Purvis and Wade should leave the series, otherwise it will be 80's all over again.
I have noticed that LTK Daltons scenes are kept rather short. I don't know if its the pacing of the movie but Dalton is not given a chance to be fully Bond. Craig and Brosnan were given a few opportunities (coming out of ocean or sneaking around Russian chemical factory). I loved the water ski and last bits of LTK but the rest of the film including the bar fight and ninja confrontation where Bond gets his B) kicked doesn't necessarily show his tough side in a film he is supposed to be tough. What annoys the most is the deleted scenes where Bond is seen coming out of Sanchez house in boat and cleaning his gun. That and more of Dalton would have added even better tone. I know showing Sanchez on tv is not a good idea but something could have been done to keep the scene. Peter hunt would have clearly known what to do with the film as he really can set the tone for a movie when he wants to. He looked super smooth in Lark commercial wish he had more of em.

#289 Jim

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:21 PM

Truth is, he wasn't THE problem, but he was certainly A problem. Oddly enough, he may have simply just been too good for the role. He wanted to imbue the role with more than was really there, when at the end of the film the audience really just wants exotic locales, beautiful women, stunts, cool cars and gadgets, and a plot that involves millions of lives in the balance (and not two back-to-back films involving drug smuggling). Dalton was a classically trained actor essentially being asked to make more of the film than what existed on paper, and while he may have been good enough to do it, the rest of the creative team was not.


I can buy that. Of an awful film, he is the least worst element. It just seems so laboured. Exhausted.

#290 sthgilyadgnivileht

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:25 PM

For the record, Dalton left Easter time 1994 and Brosnan and GOLDENEYE were publically 'unveiled' on - I think (and there is a reason I know this) June 8th 1994.

Yes, Newspapers I have reported Brosnan as Bond on Wednesday, June 8th 1994.

#291 jaguar007

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 08:46 PM

And, like I said, when you've got someone like Charles Juroe saying "Dalton is the Bond of record", you better start looking for another job...and quick. That was one of the worst, lamest, most transparent votes of no-confidence I have ever seen or heard. I mean, clearly Dalton was "the Bond of record" because he hadn't been replaced yet, but notice that Juroe didn't go out of his way to enthusiastically trumpet the praises of Dalton and assure the press that Dalton would indeed return.


If I recall the exact same thing was said of Pierce Brosnan before Daniel Craig was confirmed.


No. EON/Danjaq had stated almost a year before Craig was announced that they were going to be doing Bond's first mission as a 00 and were going to cast a new Bond.

#292 tim partridge

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 09:37 PM

It just wasn't that good. I don't blame his age for all the mistakes (under used villain Zorin) but the story and production qualities just wasn't there.That partly is my biggest grudge against LTK.. Am partly biased to the fact Peter Lamont and Glen didn't understand certain nuance's to Bond. FYEO is excellent but little by little I felt they lost their way. TLD was a script written mostly to suit someone like Rog which tone changed with Dalton's seriousness.
Thank god for Eon .You see the way they (MGM/UA) handled Pink Panther. The films were kinda funny but nowhere near to originals.

With respect I differ to your opinions here, and I am not really sure what you mean either.
Bond was the only film series produced on a two yearly basis in the eighties, and I for one am amazed how the quality was sustained throughout that decade. I don't think any other series has achieved such a feat, or will do so again.


Sorry , I don't mean they are not full of quality or originality but comparing it to the earlier Bonds of 60's and 70's something about the they way they looked didn't appeal to me. I said above I never liked Peter Lamont. He works well with Cameron but not with Bond. I never liked AWTAK but others were quite good. I just felt that Hamilton,Gilbert and Young understood a certain image of Bond. I can't expect him to be the same throughout but I do miss that. Casino Royale certainly captured most things I missed about Bond including the travelogue.
Sorry if I made it seem Bond was not of ANY standards in the 80's.

But Peter Lamont worked on the 1960's Bond films too. He designed various elements of GOLDFINGER, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE and THUNDERBALL. His stamp is there too.


Lamont was a draughtsman on those films. His stamp on Bond back then was as significant as Adrian Biddle´s on OHMSS.

I am also not a fan of the work credited to Lamont as Bond designer.

#293 jaguar007

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 10:24 PM

The Dalton movies probably would have fared better with the public is there was a longer gap between the Moore/Dalton movies (like the gap between Dalton/ Brosnan / Craig).

#294 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 10:25 PM

Truth is, he wasn't THE problem, but he was certainly A problem. Oddly enough, he may have simply just been too good for the role. He wanted to imbue the role with more than was really there, when at the end of the film the audience really just wants exotic locales, beautiful women, stunts, cool cars and gadgets, and a plot that involves millions of lives in the balance (and not two back-to-back films involving drug smuggling). Dalton was a classically trained actor essentially being asked to make more of the film than what existed on paper, and while he may have been good enough to do it, the rest of the creative team was not. And it's not like I don't think Glen or Maibaum, etc... weren't capable...but once you've done 5-15 films in a certain style or way, it becomes all you know.

Had Barbara and Michael been allowed to take creative and financial control of EON sooner (like, back in the 1980's), the history of the 80's Bonds may have been a bit different...and better, especially for actors like Dalton who wanted to class up the material a bit, but was given a weak script, lackluster direction, and almost no one near his equal to act off of. Dalton's failures are not failures of imagination, but failure to get the needed support on all creative levels to make his vision of Bond something that audiences could get used to and excited about.

That makes a lot of sense; well done, Gravity. I'd have though you'd have harped forever on how it had "flopped", but it seems you've taken a more philosophical approach, now. B)

#295 Mike00spy

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 03:09 AM

The Dalton movies probably would have fared better with the public is there was a longer gap between the Moore/Dalton movies (like the gap between Dalton/ Brosnan / Craig).



After every gap, you have the next film earning more money.

Spy over Gun
GoldenEye over LTK
DAD over TWINE
CR over DAD

#296 Dekard77

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 04:20 AM

The Dalton movies probably would have fared better with the public is there was a longer gap between the Moore/Dalton movies (like the gap between Dalton/ Brosnan / Craig).



After every gap, you have the next film earning more money.

Spy over Gun
GoldenEye over LTK
DAD over TWINE
CR over DAD


I guess that's the secret then.

#297 Zorin Industries

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 03:20 PM

It just wasn't that good. I don't blame his age for all the mistakes (under used villain Zorin) but the story and production qualities just wasn't there.That partly is my biggest grudge against LTK.. Am partly biased to the fact Peter Lamont and Glen didn't understand certain nuance's to Bond. FYEO is excellent but little by little I felt they lost their way. TLD was a script written mostly to suit someone like Rog which tone changed with Dalton's seriousness.
Thank god for Eon .You see the way they (MGM/UA) handled Pink Panther. The films were kinda funny but nowhere near to originals.

With respect I differ to your opinions here, and I am not really sure what you mean either.
Bond was the only film series produced on a two yearly basis in the eighties, and I for one am amazed how the quality was sustained throughout that decade. I don't think any other series has achieved such a feat, or will do so again.


Sorry , I don't mean they are not full of quality or originality but comparing it to the earlier Bonds of 60's and 70's something about the they way they looked didn't appeal to me. I said above I never liked Peter Lamont. He works well with Cameron but not with Bond. I never liked AWTAK but others were quite good. I just felt that Hamilton,Gilbert and Young understood a certain image of Bond. I can't expect him to be the same throughout but I do miss that. Casino Royale certainly captured most things I missed about Bond including the travelogue.
Sorry if I made it seem Bond was not of ANY standards in the 80's.

But Peter Lamont worked on the 1960's Bond films too. He designed various elements of GOLDFINGER, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE and THUNDERBALL. His stamp is there too.


Lamont was a draughtsman on those films. His stamp on Bond back then was as significant as Adrian Biddle´s on OHMSS.

I am also not a fan of the work credited to Lamont as Bond designer.

No. Lamont was given his own sets to complete as soon as he started his Bond career.

#298 Zorin Industries

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 03:59 PM

Dalton got it right back in 1989: he was history, and he knew it.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good sound bite, will you.


So Dalton came back for a mysterious third Bond movie in 1990 that nobody has ever seen or heard of, filmed it, and it's just sitting in a can somewhere in the MGM vaults waiting to be released? B)

That makes a lot of sense; well done, Gravity. I'd have though you'd have harped forever on how it had "flopped", but it seems you've taken a more philosophical approach, now. :tdown:


Huh? I've always been consistent in droning on endlessly about the fact that LTK failed. However, the reasons WHY it failed are certainly philosophical and somewhat subjective.

I liked Dalton. I liked that slightly unamused look he gave Koskov at the safe house, or the intense "blue steel" pose he gave with the turban on his head as he was shooting at Necros and Koskov from inside the Russian cargo plane. I liked Dalton's smirk, and his delivery of "You earned it, you keep it....old buddy". In fact, I remember leaving the theater in 1989 liking LTK better than TLD, but time has had her wicked way with my mind, and 20 years onward I view TLD as not only the better of Dalton's two films, but one of the best Bond films in the entire series, with LTK way down at the bottom of the list (and even at the time LTK came out, I thought it was a bad movie...just more interesting than TLD). I've learned to appreciate TLD over the years; same can't be said about LTK. It was bad then, it's bad now. Bad acting, weak script, pedantric direction, uninspiried choice of title and theme singers...limp title sequence.

Thank you for your opinions.

#299 tim partridge

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 07:14 PM

No. Lamont was given his own sets to complete as soon as he started his Bond career.


As a draughtsman.

Ken Adam was still the credited designer.

Edited by tim partridge, 08 July 2009 - 07:15 PM.


#300 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 09:17 PM

No. Lamont was given his own sets to complete as soon as he started his Bond career.

As a draughtsman.

Ken Adam was still the credited designer.

What does a draughtsman do, though? I'm a little confused on that.