70 replies to this topic

[Double-Oh Agent]

Everyone keeps saying that she died for him, that if she didn't kill herself then Bond would have died as well. What? How does that work, Vesper was trapped in the lift, she had betrayed Bond and handed the money over to Gettler who in turn would give it to Mr. White. To me it looked as though she was trying to save Yusef's skin. So....how did she die for him? Why did White say he would have had Bond aswell? Are they referring to the torture scene?

Vesper died for Bond because unlike Bond, she understood the "bigger picture" that Le Chiffre was talking about. She knew that what they were invovled in was much bigger and much more dangerous than Bond had realised, but she also knew that Bond was one of the few decent people in the world who might be able to stop it. However, as long as she were alive, Quantum would have a string tied to Bond. They could manipulate him through her, just as they manipulated her through Yusuf.

However, Vesper's death meant that Quantum would never be able to touch Bond. However far their reach might extend, he would be just that little bit further away because he knew they were responsible. Vesper needed Bond to fall in love with her, because she was plotting Quantum's downfall as early as the torture scene. She betrayed him to give him the incentive to find out more, an then killed herself to free Bond from Quantum's grasp and give him the motive to bring them down.

I think you're giving Vesper too much credit. Yes, she was trapped by Quantum and was working for them, but she was still a good person overall, hence her bargaining for Bond's life with Mr. White in Le Chiffre's ship. And while she had some feelings for Bond toward the end of the mission, she fully fell in love with 007 during his recuperation time at the clinic. When they went on vacation, she was still somewhat naively optimistic that they could live happily ever after until after she spotted Gettler in Venice. It was then that she realized that the end was near, and when Bond found out her deception, she knew for certain that their relationship would never be the same. Even if Bond still loved her and didn't kill her, she knew he would never look at her the same way as he had a half hour earlier, and she couldn't live with that or the shared knowledge that she had betrayed him. That shame was what led her to committing suicide not her supposed plotted demise of Quantum.

[Captain Tightpants]

So it's just coincidence that because of her death, there is no way Quantum will ever be able to control James Bond when they just happened to be the same organisation that forced her into betraying her country?

That's a pretty big coincidence.

[Pierce - Daniel]

Since QoS is a direct sequel, I have to wonder:

When Vesper kills herself for Bond, either out of shame or to try to save his life, would she have thought that she has essentially doomed a lot of people's lives forever, innocent or not, directly or indirectly?

At least half a dozen MI6 operatives (at least 5 in Europe and 1 in Bolivia)
1 Special branch agent
1 Hired assassin
3 Panamanian police officers
1 Fighter pilot
1 Exiled Bolivan general
2 Legitimate eco-friendly businessmen
And countless others...

what?? No.
Bond didn't kill all of those.

He killed at least 3-4 during the Aston chase, though he did only advertly kill 2 of those as the other car smashed into the truck, making it more their own fault, though Bond did set it up.

He killed Mitchell.

He killled Slate.
At no point during the boat chase is it made clear anybody died, Bond never fires his gun, he's just trying to outrun them. No one died.

Bond never killed the Special Brance guy, he survived the fall after Bond pushed him, Greene's goon finished him off.

He then kills 2 Bolivan policemen.

1 pilot

He kills Carlos, the chief of police

I think he may kill at least one of Medrano's goons.

He dosen't kill either Greene, Elvis, or (clearly) Yusef.

[byline]

Everyone keeps saying that she died for him, that if she didn't kill herself then Bond would have died as well. What? How does that work, Vesper was trapped in the lift, she had betrayed Bond and handed the money over to Gettler who in turn would give it to Mr. White. To me it looked as though she was trying to save Yusef's skin. So....how did she die for him? Why did White say he would have had Bond aswell? Are they referring to the torture scene?

Vesper died for Bond because unlike Bond, she understood the "bigger picture" that Le Chiffre was talking about. She knew that what they were invovled in was much bigger and much more dangerous than Bond had realised, but she also knew that Bond was one of the few decent people in the world who might be able to stop it. However, as long as she were alive, Quantum would have a string tied to Bond. They could manipulate him through her, just as they manipulated her through Yusuf.

However, Vesper's death meant that Quantum would never be able to touch Bond. However far their reach might extend, he would be just that little bit further away because he knew they were responsible. Vesper needed Bond to fall in love with her, because she was plotting Quantum's downfall as early as the torture scene. She betrayed him to give him the incentive to find out more, an then killed herself to free Bond from Quantum's grasp and give him the motive to bring them down.

I think you're giving Vesper too much credit. Yes, she was trapped by Quantum and was working for them, but she was still a good person overall, hence her bargaining for Bond's life with Mr. White in Le Chiffre's ship. And while she had some feelings for Bond toward the end of the mission, she fully fell in love with 007 during his recuperation time at the clinic. When they went on vacation, she was still somewhat naively optimistic that they could live happily ever after until after she spotted Gettler in Venice. It was then that she realized that the end was near, and when Bond found out her deception, she knew for certain that their relationship would never be the same. Even if Bond still loved her and didn't kill her, she knew he would never look at her the same way as he had a half hour earlier, and she couldn't live with that or the shared knowledge that she had betrayed him. That shame was what led her to committing suicide not her supposed plotted demise of Quantum.

I don't consider it an either/or proposition; I believe all of the above to be true. Yes, Vesper knew that her betrayal was something Bond would likely never forgive, no matter how much he loved her. But yes, Vesper also saw the big picture, and she knew that Bond would move heaven and earth to protect her . . . which was also the very vulnerability Quantum was trying to exploit. Without that, Quantum didn't have the leverage with Bond that they'd been hoping for; Mr. White practically admitted as much in the interrogation room.

And not just with Bond. As we could see, Yusef's (and undoubtedly others') role was placing any number of government agents in that position, so that they could be blackmailed by Quantum to do their bidding. But Vesper's suicide thwarted those plans with Bond. And, as we saw, he was so damaged by what happened with Vesper that it's unlikely he will ever let himself be placed in that situation again. Maybe that part wasn't ultimately Vesper's goal; her main goal was escape from a bad situation, and also securing a measure of protection for Bond before she died. But, as is often the case, actions have ramifications well beyond their intended goal, and I believe that to be the case here.

Edited by byline, 17 February 2009 - 01:19 PM.

[tdalton]

Vesper's motivation is hauntingly explained in her letter to Bond in the novel: "You might save my life, but I couldn't bear the look in your dear eyes."

Completely agreed. I see this as the only reason for Vesper to do what she did in the film.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Vesper's motivation is hauntingly explained in her letter to Bond in the novel: "You might save my life, but I couldn't bear the look in your dear eyes."

Completely agreed. I see this as the only reason for Vesper to do what she did in the film.

That's right. The novel's letter explains almost all for me, too.

The letter also says: "I realized that I could either wait to be killed by SMERSH, would perhaps get you killed too, or I could kill myself". I think the Organization would have kidnapped Vesper, again, and then tried to kill Bond, when he would have gone to rescue his ex-girlfriend. Because, blackmail would not have worked with 007, just like it didn't worked in Montenegro (even with Le Chiffre torturing him, and Vesper screaming in the other room).

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 18 February 2009 - 07:47 AM.

[tdalton]

Vesper's motivation is hauntingly explained in her letter to Bond in the novel: "You might save my life, but I couldn't bear the look in your dear eyes."

Completely agreed. I see this as the only reason for Vesper to do what she did in the film.

That's right. The novel's letter explains almost all for me, too.

The letter also says: "I realized that I could either wait to be killed by SMERSH, would perhaps get you killed too, or I could kill myself". I think the Organization would have kidnapped Vesper, again, and then tried to kill Bond, when he would have gone to rescue his ex-girlfriend. Because, blackmail would not have worked with 007, just like it didn't worked in Montenegro (even with Le Chiffre torturing him, and Vesper screaming in the other room).

Agreed. I think that Quantum definitely would have kidnapped Vesper again in order to lure Bond into a trap, and that could have been a fantastic set-up for the next Bond film (although I would never want to have Fleming's Casino Royale altered in any way and the film should have ended as it did, but I'm just saying that such an idea could have been an interesting direction to go).

[Double-Oh Agent]

So it's just coincidence that because of her death, there is no way Quantum will ever be able to control James Bond when they just happened to be the same organisation that forced her into betraying her country?

That's a pretty big coincidence.

Coincidence or not, that is what I believe happened--read the novel. When someone has so much shame from what they did and is contemplating suicide, they're not thinking about the big picture, they're thinking only of themselves and how to end their unhappiness. Sure, some suicides are committed for non-selfish reasons, but not in Vesper's case. She's not thinking about Quantum, only about her betrayal of Bond and how he will never look at her the same way again.

[byline]

So it's just coincidence that because of her death, there is no way Quantum will ever be able to control James Bond when they just happened to be the same organisation that forced her into betraying her country?

That's a pretty big coincidence.

Coincidence or not, that is what I believe happened--read the novel. When someone has so much shame from what they did and is contemplating suicide, they're not thinking about the big picture, they're thinking only of themselves and how to end their unhappiness. Sure, some suicides are committed for non-selfish reasons, but not in Vesper's case. She's not thinking about Quantum, only about her betrayal of Bond and how he will never look at her the same way again.

True, that's how it's presented in the novel, but remember that there's quite a bit that's different in the film version of "Casino Royale" as compared with the book version. And Vesper, the film character, is in many ways very different from Vesper, the book character. One of the ways in which she's different is that in the film, Vesper is given more of a redemptive aspect. So I think connecting the dots to a bigger picture makes perfect sense; I don't limit my take on the film character's motivations only to that as presented in the novel. What's presented in the novel is part of it, yes. But I believe there's more. Hence, that continuation into the "Quantum of Solace" story.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

So it's just coincidence that because of her death, there is no way Quantum will ever be able to control James Bond when they just happened to be the same organisation that forced her into betraying her country?

That's a pretty big coincidence.

Coincidence or not, that is what I believe happened--read the novel. When someone has so much shame from what they did and is contemplating suicide, they're not thinking about the big picture, they're thinking only of themselves and how to end their unhappiness. Sure, some suicides are committed for non-selfish reasons, but not in Vesper's case. She's not thinking about Quantum, only about her betrayal of Bond and how he will never look at her the same way again.

True, that's how it's presented in the novel, but remember that there's quite a bit that's different in the film version of "Casino Royale" as compared with the book version. And Vesper, the film character, is in many ways very different from Vesper, the book character. One of the ways in which she's different is that in the film, Vesper is given more of a redemptive aspect. So I think connecting the dots to a bigger picture makes perfect sense; I don't limit my take on the film character's motivations only to that as presented in the novel. What's presented in the novel is part of it, yes. But I believe there's more. Hence, that continuation into the "Quantum of Solace" story.

But it's also present in the novel (along with the "shame" motivations) the no so selfish reasons that Vesper had for her suicide, as I already quoted in my early post:

"I realized that I could either wait to be killed by SMERSH, would perhaps get you killed too, or I could kill myself".

Add to that this line, also from the letter: "But I've got to be brave. You might save my life". And you would have the 'big picture' with Vesper.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 18 February 2009 - 08:53 PM.

[byline]

So it's just coincidence that because of her death, there is no way Quantum will ever be able to control James Bond when they just happened to be the same organisation that forced her into betraying her country?

That's a pretty big coincidence.

Coincidence or not, that is what I believe happened--read the novel. When someone has so much shame from what they did and is contemplating suicide, they're not thinking about the big picture, they're thinking only of themselves and how to end their unhappiness. Sure, some suicides are committed for non-selfish reasons, but not in Vesper's case. She's not thinking about Quantum, only about her betrayal of Bond and how he will never look at her the same way again.

True, that's how it's presented in the novel, but remember that there's quite a bit that's different in the film version of "Casino Royale" as compared with the book version. And Vesper, the film character, is in many ways very different from Vesper, the book character. One of the ways in which she's different is that in the film, Vesper is given more of a redemptive aspect. So I think connecting the dots to a bigger picture makes perfect sense; I don't limit my take on the film character's motivations only to that as presented in the novel. What's presented in the novel is part of it, yes. But I believe there's more. Hence, that continuation into the "Quantum of Solace" story.

But it's also present in the novel (along with the "shame" motivations) the no so selfish reasons that Vesper had for her suicide, as I already quoted in my early post:

"I realized that I could either wait to be killed by SMERSH, would perhaps get you killed too, or I could kill myself".

Add to that this line, also from the letter: "But I've got to be brave. You might save my life". And you would have the 'big picture' with Vesper.

Good point. In all fairness, they did expand this aspect significantly for "Casino Royale" and then "Quantum of Solace" . . . so it's easy to see why some may have missed that hint from the novel.