70 replies to this topic

[marktmurphy]

She did betray Bond, this is simple. If she loved him so much, why not just tell him about Yusef on their boat? Maybe she thought that the ruthless Bond may just decide that letting him die would be the best option, that much is unclear.
She didn't kill herself to get Bond out of harm's way- at the time she killed herself they were pretty intent on killing him anyway so that argument doesn't hold much water. Neither is there much evidence that she 'knew too much': she didn't even know Yusef was working for Quantum so why would she know anything more about Quantum itself? What was her plan if Bond hadn't followed her that day in Venice? Hand the money over and then kill herself? Why would she think that Bond would be safe if she did that? He'd have even less idea about Quantum, who would presumably be coming after him to tidy things up anyway just in case she had let anything slip.
Double 0 Ego's comment about her killing herself to prevent her being taken hostage and used as leverage to exert on Bond does come the closest to making sense, but again at that point there's no immediate evidence of that- Bond's already killed them all: she's going nowhere. Plus he's resigned his commission as a spy; he's no longer useful to them. He's just an unemployed, penniless guy with an expensive boat- what would they want him to do?

The only logical reason for her killing herself that I can see is shame, as in the book. I can't see how she's protecting anyone by doing it when she does- she's even just watched Bond guarantee her boyfriend's death by killing Gettler and chums.

It is a very murky aspect of CR and QoS failed to clear it up. I think we're supposed to think that Bond is in some sort of denial in QoS when he goes on about how Vesper betrayed him, but the thing is, the more I think about it, the more I agree with him.

[Pierce - Daniel]

What? Please read the thread.

It is clear that she killed herself due to the guilt she felt, she knew she was playing with fire, and also knew that Gettler and his man may and would likely have killed her. After all why else did she leave her phone so that Bond could find it? She wanted him to come and save her........hang on I'm piecing this together in my head......he arrived, and was evidently unhappy about what was going on. He killed the bad guys and went out to save Vesper, knwoing she was the root of all the trouble, after all Bond said he loved her, and Vesper was falling in love with him but her heart was also with Yusef, she was truly trapped, she killed herself due to the guilt of betraying the heart-strong Bond. But, and here's why I think people beleive that she saved him from Quantum, after Gettler's men killed her, and it was inevitable they were, they would have come for Bond (remember Gettler the character has never seen a Bond movie) and killed him in Venice, he would be none the wiser he was being followed, but Vesper left her phone and Bond followed and beat his enemies. Only Vesper knew she was the root of the probelm and due to her guilt killed herself but not before letting Bond know everythign she did about Quantum, most noticably the role of Mr. White.

I think I've figured it out, Vesper always knew she was going to die, Gettler was going to kill her. Quantum don;t like being played for fools, eg: Mr. White killed Le Chiffre despite the fact he was tortuing Bond for the info Quantum needed, and Greene was still the figure head for a big industry company but Quantum still shot him down. So...there you go. Vesper must have known when she saw Gettler there was no such thing as a happy ever after.

[marktmurphy]

What? Please read the thread.

........hang on I'm piecing this together in my head......

Well, exactly.

But, and here's why I think people beleive that she saved him from Quantum, after Gettler's men killed her, and it was inevitable they were, they would have come for Bond (remember Gettler the character has never seen a Bond movie) and killed him in Venice, he would be none the wiser he was being followed, but Vesper left her phone and Bond followed and beat his enemies.

Why not, y'know; just tell Bond? If she wanted to hand over the money to save Yusef, why would she want Bond to kill them all before they left? She'd be guaranteeing Yusef's death. How could she be certain that Bond wouldn't stop her from turning over the money altogether; getting to her before she got to Gettler? Unless perhaps she's been asked to lure Bond into a trap, which would explain the guilt, but not their surprise when he turns up.
Doesn't hang together, I'm afraid.

[Pierce - Daniel]

For Vesper this was the only choice, why she took this descion I don;t know, but it was what Vesper thought was for the best. She was always going to die, she knew that.

[marktmurphy]

She was always going to die, she knew that.

She'd read the book?

[Qbranchtech]

Since QoS is a direct sequel, I have to wonder:

When Vesper kills herself for Bond, either out of shame or to try to save his life, would she have thought that she has essentially doomed a lot of people's lives forever, innocent or not, directly or indirectly?

At least half a dozen MI6 operatives (at least 5 in Europe and 1 in Bolivia)
1 Special branch agent
1 Hired assassin
3 Panamanian police officers
1 Fighter pilot
1 Exiled Bolivan general
2 Legitimate eco-friendly businessmen
And countless others...

[byline]

Since QoS is a direct sequel, I have to wonder:

When Vesper kills herself for Bond, either out of shame or to try to save his life, would she have thought that she has essentially doomed a lot of people's lives forever, innocent or not, directly or indirectly?

I think Vesper thought she could do what she was being forced to do a lot sooner, before people actually died or were harmed. She thought she could simply distract Bond enough that he would lose, then she would refuse to allow him to buy back in. Sounds pretty simple, eh?

She was confronted with how bad things could get when she and Bond were nearly killed by the Ugandans, but he killed them. So things got out of hand pretty rapidly. But what were her choices? Every choice available to her was a bad one, for her and for others. She was trying to minimize the damage as best she could, but I'm sure that well before the point when she decided to kill herself, she knew there was no harm-free decision she could make. Harm reduction was the best she could do.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Vesper wasn't a bad woman, just a woman trapped by her love for Yusef, which was used to Quantum's advantage. They threatened Yusef's life if she didn't help them, so she did, not knowing he was actually a part of the organization and had set her up. As a result, she systematically betrays Bond throughout Casino Royale. From telling Mr. White/Le Chiffre about Le Chiffre's tell to not bankrolling Bond for an extra $5 million after he lost to stealing the winnings from the Venice bank to give to Gettler.

She saved Bond's life in Le Chiffre's ship by bargaining with White to spare his life in exchange for the money. For the next month or so, everything was great as Bond recuperated in hospital before they set sail around the world. She's living a bit of a fantasy life with her lover during this time and can't break the spell by telling Bond what she's done. However, when they reach Venice, she spots Gettler and knows the end is near. She can no longer hide from Quantum, so she slips away from Bond and takes the money from the bank to give to Gettler and settle everything once and for all. She knows she will likely die so she sends Bond the text message with White's phone number on it. However, Bond gets wise to the theft before the exchange can take place and things come to a head at the drop.

During the battle, Vesper realizes beyond a doubt how tough and honest Bond is and to what lengths he will go, not only to rescue her, but to get the bad guys. When Bond finally gets to her, she knows that even if she were to escape her traitorous predicament that things will never be the same between them. Bond will never love her like he did before 30 minutes ago. Their love is forever tarnished and she is responsible for it. Because of that, feelings of shame and guilt and despair overcome her and she commits suicide. She's not thinking of protecting Bond, only herself. She knows she's going to die anyway so better on her terms than the government's (and living even longer with her guilt and loss of love).

As for White's comment about "If it wasn't for Vesper, we would have had you too", I can only surmise that he is referring to her bargaining for 007's life in the ship's hold. If that's not the case than I have no idea other than it's just a writer's decision to give more drama to the script and make Vesper more sympathetic a character in Quantum Of Solace.

[Major Tallon]

Vesper's motivation is hauntingly explained in her letter to Bond in the novel: "You might save my life, but I couldn't bear the look in your dear eyes."

[dogmanstar]

Why does White say that if she was alive they would have had him aswell

I would have to watch CR again but I think in Bond and M's conversation in Venice it is implied that Vesper made the deal to save Bond's life in exchange for the money--So, Quantum kills Le Chiffre for his failure, rather than both of them and let the British Treasury keep the cash.

When White says in QoS that "We would have had you as well" doesn't he also say something like "You'd have followed her to the end of the earth."? I took that to mean that Bond would have (unknowingly) given secrets to Vesper and then, when the time was right, they'd have killed him, too.

[double o ego]

Eh? I think it only made sense to keep Bond alive. Sure, it's not as though Quantum needed the money badly and as Mr White said, knowing who to trust is what the org cares about most but that being said, keeping Bond alive would still grant Quantum the opportunity to still get their hands on the money because Bond was the only one who knew the password. Naturally, at the time, Vesper must have been thanking her lucky stars because it meant at least she still got to keep her life long enough to get her hands on the goods, deliver the money, save yusef and of course probably had a thin slice of hope that things could turn out rosy.

As for killing herself. I think it came down to a couple of things. She clearly killed herself because she felt ashamed but I think she also killed herself to protect Bond as White suggests. Either way, from her point of view, she was better off dead.

[byline]

Eh? I think it only made sense to keep Bond alive. Sure, it's not as though Quantum needed the money badly and as Mr White said, knowing who to trust is what the org cares about most but that being said, keeping Bond alive would still grant Quantum the opportunity to still get their hands on the money because Bond was the only one who knew the password. Naturally, at the time, Vesper must have been thanking her lucky stars because it meant at least she still got to keep her life long enough to get her hands on the goods, deliver the money, save yusef and of course probably had a thin slice of hope that things could turn out rosy.

It depends on how much weight Mr. White placed on Bond never giving up the password, and how much of a threat he was to Quantum. Mr. White could clearly overhear Bond refusing to give the password to Le Chiffre, despite the terrible torture Le Chiffre was inflicting on Bond, and also despite the fact that Vesper was, at the very least, being threatened with torture, as well. So Mr. White knew that the chances of him getting the password out of Bond were slim to none. That's why I think he'd decided to maybe give it one more go before killing both Vesper and Bond there in the torture chamber. That's the point where Vesper made the deal to spare Bond's life in exchange for the money. Mr. White probably figured this was the simplest way to get the money and get rid of both Bond and Vesper in the end.

[Hitmonk]

Why does White say that if she was alive they would have had him aswell

White's exact quote is "If she hadn't of killed herself we would have had you too. I think you would have done anything for her."

My take on White's words is Quantum would have tried to manipulate Bond using Vesper's hold over him in order to entrap him in their web. He would have ultimately become another of their "people everywhere".

Vesper herself knew that once drawn into the web there was no hope of escaping from it. To put it another way, nobody leaves Quantum and lives to tell the tale. This - together with her guilt for having lied to Bond - led her to scarifying herself so that he could remain free from the Quantum web.

Ultimately she saved his life, but more in an indirect, rather than a direct manner.

[dogmanstar]

Why does White say that if she was alive they would have had him aswell

White's exact quote is "If she hadn't of killed herself we would have had you too. I think you would have done anything for her."

My take on White's words is Quantum would have tried to manipulate Bond using Vesper's hold over him in order to entrap him in their web. He would have ultimately become another of their "people everywhere".

Vesper herself knew that once drawn into the web there was no hope of escaping from it. To put it another way, nobody leaves Quantum and lives to tell the tale. This - together with her guilt for having lied to Bond - led her to scarifying herself so that he could remain free from the Quantum web.

Ultimately she saved his life, but more in an indirect, rather than a direct manner.

Well said. Agreement from me.

[Santa]

I think most of the arguments are pretty good, one way or the other, but as far as Vesper's shame goes, I'd say that can be built upon. As others have said, things wouldn't be the same between them again - Bond couldn't love her the same way knowing she's a traitor, and yet I don't think he could leave her either. So I think the suicide wasn't just her shame, she was letting him go. I hate the word 'closure' but I think it's appropriate here - death is the only way to get around the can't live with/can't live without dilemma, so to save him from that, she lets him go in the only way possible.

[Colonel Moon]

I liked QoS but they used Vesper name too often, im sick of it

Edited by Colonel Moon, 02 December 2008 - 10:44 PM.

[jaguar007]

I liked QoS but they used Vesper name too often, im sick of it

Well she was a key point of the movie.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Why does White say that if she was alive they would have had him aswell

White's exact quote is "If she hadn't of killed herself we would have had you too. I think you would have done anything for her."

My take on White's words is Quantum would have tried to manipulate Bond using Vesper's hold over him in order to entrap him in their web. He would have ultimately become another of their "people everywhere".

Vesper herself knew that once drawn into the web there was no hope of escaping from it. To put it another way, nobody leaves Quantum and lives to tell the tale. This - together with her guilt for having lied to Bond - led her to scarifying herself so that he could remain free from the Quantum web.

But the supposition from Mr. White I think it is more related with the information that Vesper could have drained from Bond (even if OO7 finally retires from MI6), in the case that he never finds out that she's working for Quantum.

Because Mr. White knows that Bond doesn't break with extortion (as he proved with Le Chiffre's torture, even knowing that Vesper was supossedly suffering torture at the same time), hence OO7 never will become another of their "people everywhere".

Vesper, after experience being again taken as hostage (this time in the venetian palazzo) and considering this toughness of Bond's character, got to the certenty that sooner or later she was going to be killed by the organization.

Thus committing suicide, was the only way she had of relieving Bond from the guilt and suffer, of sentence her to this death.

[Colonel Moon]

I liked QoS but they used Vesper name too often, im sick of it

Well she was a key point of the movie.

I undersrand but they could use her surname also

[byline]

I liked QoS but they used Vesper name too often, im sick of it

Well she was a key point of the movie.

I undersrand but they could use her surname also

Why? Every time she's mentioned, it's among people who knew perfectly well who she was. Why would they say Vesper Lynd?

[MajorB]

Vesper wasn't a bad woman, just a woman trapped by her love for Yusef, which was used to Quantum's advantage. They threatened Yusef's life if she didn't help them, so she did, not knowing he was actually a part of the organization and had set her up. As a result, she systematically betrays Bond throughout Casino Royale. From telling Mr. White/Le Chiffre about Le Chiffre's tell to not bankrolling Bond for an extra $5 million after he lost to stealing the winnings from the Venice bank to give to Gettler.

She saved Bond's life in Le Chiffre's ship by bargaining with White to spare his life in exchange for the money. For the next month or so, everything was great as Bond recuperated in hospital before they set sail around the world. She's living a bit of a fantasy life with her lover during this time and can't break the spell by telling Bond what she's done. However, when they reach Venice, she spots Gettler and knows the end is near. She can no longer hide from Quantum, so she slips away from Bond and takes the money from the bank to give to Gettler and settle everything once and for all. She knows she will likely die so she sends Bond the text message with White's phone number on it. However, Bond gets wise to the theft before the exchange can take place and things come to a head at the drop.

During the battle, Vesper realizes beyond a doubt how tough and honest Bond is and to what lengths he will go, not only to rescue her, but to get the bad guys. When Bond finally gets to her, she knows that even if she were to escape her traitorous predicament that things will never be the same between them. Bond will never love her like he did before 30 minutes ago. Their love is forever tarnished and she is responsible for it. Because of that, feelings of shame and guilt and despair overcome her and she commits suicide. She's not thinking of protecting Bond, only herself. She knows she's going to die anyway so better on her terms than the government's (and living even longer with her guilt and loss of love).

I think this is exactly it, point for point, Agent--well done.

As for White's quote about "We would've had you too," I wonder if he was simply misjudging Bond. That he saw Bond as so in love with Vesper that we would have thrown everything away for her. Just as M believed that Bond was so wracked with grief that he was merely out for vengeance. I think one of the main purposes of the safe-house scene was to set us up to believe that Bond might be truly rogue, only to find out at the end that he "never left"--that he was, in fact, doing his duty all along. If that's so, I'm not sure the script made that point as clearly as it might have, but it gives White's line a reasonable context.

Either that, or White was just trying to mess with Bond's and M's minds. That would be so like him.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

During the battle, Vesper realizes beyond a doubt how tough and honest Bond is and to what lengths he will go, not only to rescue her, but to get the bad guys. When Bond finally gets to her, she knows that even if she were to escape her traitorous predicament that things will never be the same between them. Bond will never love her like he did before 30 minutes ago. Their love is forever tarnished and she is responsible for it. Because of that, feelings of shame and guilt and despair overcome her and she commits suicide. She's not thinking of protecting Bond, only herself. She knows she's going to die anyway so better on her terms than the government's (and living even longer with her guilt and loss of love).

Are you saying that the british goverment would have condemned Vesper to DEATH, if they founf out of her betrayal (probably through Bond's mouth). I don't know the british legal system, but is it possible this penalty, in this case??

Because in that assumption the line from M "I'm sure she hoped they would let her live. But she must have known she was going to her death" (which is aborded in depth in this thread http://debrief.comma...mp;#entry971168, would make sense.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

I was researching and it's seems that the death penalty was posssible and just for the case of treason in UK until 1998, hence I suppose that fictionally in CR that is extended until 2006. So, there's only one question that remains for me (I wrote it in the other thread, but I still waiting for answers):

Vesper already had decided to commit suicide in the minute that she left the message for Bond in the cel phone, and thus she even wanted to be followed by Bond to her meeting with Gettler (remember that she stop to look back in the middle of the road to the venetian palazzo)??

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 11 December 2008 - 02:09 AM.

[Janus Assassin]

Ok, this is a dumb question that I probably should have picked up on earlier, I can't just pop in QOS right now, so i could use some help

Is Yusef, Vesper's boyfriend? The one that was "kidnapped" and the situation forced Vesper to work for Quantum? Is it the same guy who shows up at the end in Russia?

but then again, when i first saw QOS, i thought they had killed Vesper's boyfriend, hence when M showed Bond the picture in Siena and "we believe the fish did that to him."

Like I said, dumb question but the only concern i have so i can officially finish linking these films together

[Major Tallon]

Ok, this is a dumb question that I probably should have picked up on earlier, I can't just pop in QOS right now, so i could use some help

Is Yusef, Vesper's boyfriend? The one that was "kidnapped" and the situation forced Vesper to work for Quantum? Is it the same guy who shows up at the end in Russia?

but then again, when i first saw QOS, i thought they had killed Vesper's boyfriend, hence when M showed Bond the picture in Siena and "we believe the fish did that to him."

Like I said, dumb question but the only concern i have so i can officially finish linking these films together

No question's a dumb question. We're here to help each other!

The whole "kidnapped boyfriend" ploy was a setup, designed to lure young women in sensitive government positions to believe they had to betray their trust in order to save the life of a man they'd come to love. They guy Bond captured at the end of QOS was in fact this man, which is why M was so surprised that Bond, who'd left a trail of mayhem behind him, hadn't killed him.

When M showed Bond the photo of Yusef's alleged corpse, her line was "We're meant to believe that the fish did that to him," but she wasn't convinced and had a DNA sample done using a hair sample from the boyfriend found in Vesper's flat. The analysis showed that the corpse wasn't Yusef at all, so Bond set out to investigate.

Hope that helps.

[Janus Assassin]

It did.. Thank You

[danielcraigisjamesbond007]

One thing that I still don't get is that people think that Yusef/Mr. White was responsibe for Vesper's death. Umm, Vesper killed herself. Sure, Yusef was the reason why Vesper gave away the money that lead to her demise, but neither Yusef, nor Mr. White were holding Vesper under the water.
But, in the words of Mr. White, Vesper "would have done anything for [Bond]."

[byline]

One thing that I still don't get is that people think that Yusef/Mr. White was responsibe for Vesper's death. Umm, Vesper killed herself. Sure, Yusef was the reason why Vesper gave away the money that lead to her demise, but neither Yusef, nor Mr. White were holding Vesper under the water.
But, in the words of Mr. White, Vesper "would have done anything for [Bond]."

Well, if you're going to take it that literally. . . .

Quantum placed Vesper in an impossible situation. No, neither Yusef nor Mr. White forced her to drown herself, but the circumstances they created for her ultimately led her to decide that death was the best of what few options she had left. She knew that if she were alive, Bond would stop at nothing to protect her because he loved her, so she killed herself to keep from putting him in that position. And that position was created by Quantum pretending to kidnap Yusef, and then Mr. White manipulating Vesper's emotions with blackmail. None of that would have happened, were it not for Yusef and Mr. White.

After all, in murder-for-hire situations, it's not just the one who pulls the trigger (or whatever method the killer chooses) who is guilty of murder; it's also the person who hired the murderer. The murder wouldn't have happened without the person instigating it in the first place. Vesper wouldn't have killed herself if the sequence of events initiated by Quantum hadn't occurred.

By the way, Vesper probably would have been dead either way . . . and that was due to Quantum, too. She knew that Gettler was going to kill her, so another reason to kill herself was to at least have some measure of control over her own death.

[danielcraigisjamesbond007]

Quantum placed Vesper in an impossible situation. No, neither Yusef nor Mr. White forced her to drown herself, but the circumstances they created for her ultimately led her to decide that death was the best of what few options she had left. She knew that if she were alive, Bond would stop at nothing to protect her because he loved her, so she killed herself to keep from putting him in that position. And that position was created by Quantum pretending to kidnap Yusef, and then Mr. White manipulating Vesper's emotions with blackmail. None of that would have happened, were it not for Yusef and Mr. White.

Honestly, I never thought about it that way. Thanks for that byline! I guess that I have to watch CR and QOS back-to-back to try and put the pieces together.

[Captain Tightpants]

Everyone keeps saying that she died for him, that if she didn't kill herself then Bond would have died as well. What? How does that work, Vesper was trapped in the lift, she had betrayed Bond and handed the money over to Gettler who in turn would give it to Mr. White. To me it looked as though she was trying to save Yusef's skin. So....how did she die for him? Why did White say he would have had Bond aswell? Are they referring to the torture scene?

Vesper died for Bond because unlike Bond, she understood the "bigger picture" that Le Chiffre was talking about. She knew that what they were invovled in was much bigger and much more dangerous than Bond had realised, but she also knew that Bond was one of the few decent people in the world who might be able to stop it. However, as long as she were alive, Quantum would have a string tied to Bond. They could manipulate him through her, just as they manipulated her through Yusuf.

However, Vesper's death meant that Quantum would never be able to touch Bond. However far their reach might extend, he would be just that little bit further away because he knew they were responsible. Vesper needed Bond to fall in love with her, because she was plotting Quantum's downfall as early as the torture scene. She betrayed him to give him the incentive to find out more, an then killed herself to free Bond from Quantum's grasp and give him the motive to bring them down.