42 replies to this topic

[00Twelve]

Setting aside the fact that Mathis shouldn't have died as he is still alive in the novels, Bond's treatment of Mathis' body is very out of character.

Mathis, along with Tanner and Leiter, is one of Bond's best friends. He would never callously and cold-heartedly treat his friend's body that way, particularly when it serves no purpose for him to do so. See Dr. No and Quarrel. Quarrel is just killed. Does Bond just walk away? No, he turns to pay his respects to the body only to nearly get his foot shot off before being forced to walk away. In From Russia With Love, he squeezes the dead Kerim Bey's shoulder. In the novels, he is greatly affected and upset when his friends and allies are killed, but he manages to push those feelings quickly aside to get on with his duty. He doesn't toss his friends in dumpsters. Additionally, I don't think Bond would just sit with his dying friend and do nothing. He would have put him in the back of the SUV and driven like hell to the hospital whether he was likely to get there in time to save Mathis or not.

In addition, putting Mathis in the dumpster makes absolutely no sense. If it's to hide the body, he failed. You can see the dead motorcycle cops in the background in one shot and Mathis' arm ends up draped over the edge of the dumpster. Why couldn't Bond have just left Mathis in the road or propped him up against the dumpster? I understand him taking the money but not the rest of it. The whole scene didn't work for me.

1. Mathis is Bond's best friend in the novels. Likewise, Felix was never married nor widowed as in LTK. They chose to take the character in a different direction. I'm sure he'd have gone on to be a friend of Bond's, but the relationship dynamic was different than that of the novels from the beginning.

2. You're acting like Bond showed no love for the guy whatsoever. He cradled Mathis in his arms and provided him a few peaceful moments with the last friend he had. After Mathis died, Bond continued to hold him and fight back his emotions (props to Craig for pulling that off so well). It then skips to a few moments later when Bond leaves him in the dumpster (which is still better than just leaving him on the street, IMO). Totally in the vein of how Bond treated Quarrel and Kerim in death, IMO. And it wisely left out the unnecessary sentimentality. The celluloid characters weren't quite as chummy as their literary counterparts.

3. As in DN and FRWL (and the LALD novel), Bond took the time and effort to avenge his friend's death.

4. I miss the literary Mathis, too; However, I'm glad they gave him this honorable a treatment, rather than what they did with the Felix character for years.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Setting aside the fact that Mathis shouldn't have died as he is still alive in the novels, Bond's treatment of Mathis' body is very out of character.

Mathis, along with Tanner and Leiter, is one of Bond's best friends. He would never callously and cold-heartedly treat his friend's body that way, particularly when it serves no purpose for him to do so. See Dr. No and Quarrel. Quarrel is just killed. Does Bond just walk away? No, he turns to pay his respects to the body only to nearly get his foot shot off before being forced to walk away. In From Russia With Love, he squeezes the dead Kerim Bey's shoulder. In the novels, he is greatly affected and upset when his friends and allies are killed, but he manages to push those feelings quickly aside to get on with his duty. He doesn't toss his friends in dumpsters. Additionally, I don't think Bond would just sit with his dying friend and do nothing. He would have put him in the back of the SUV and driven like hell to the hospital whether he was likely to get there in time to save Mathis or not.

In addition, putting Mathis in the dumpster makes absolutely no sense. If it's to hide the body, he failed. You can see the dead motorcycle cops in the background in one shot and Mathis' arm ends up draped over the edge of the dumpster. Why couldn't Bond have just left Mathis in the road or propped him up against the dumpster? I understand him taking the money but not the rest of it. The whole scene didn't work for me.

1. Mathis is Bond's best friend in the novels. Likewise, Felix was never married nor widowed as in LTK. They chose to take the character in a different direction. I'm sure he'd have gone on to be a friend of Bond's, but the relationship dynamic was different than that of the novels from the beginning.

Yes, in the novels, but EON's never veered away from the novels so much as to change a character's living status before, certainly not for such a major character. They've never killed off Felix Leiter or M or Moneypenny or Q or Bill Tanner for instance. And yes, the relationship dynamic was different in the films, but it was still Rene Mathis. He and Bond got on very well in Casino Royale and respected each other, right up to the end when Mathis was taken away. It was a little rockier in Quantum Of Solace, but their friendship was getting stronger.


2. You're acting like Bond showed no love for the guy whatsoever. He cradled Mathis in his arms and provided him a few peaceful moments with the last friend he had. After Mathis died, Bond continued to hold him and fight back his emotions (props to Craig for pulling that off so well). It then skips to a few moments later when Bond leaves him in the dumpster (which is still better than just leaving him on the street, IMO). Totally in the vein of how Bond treated Quarrel and Kerim in death, IMO. And it wisely left out the unnecessary sentimentality. The celluloid characters weren't quite as chummy as their literary counterparts.

I'm not saying Bond didn't show him any love (although I'm one of the few not sold on the scene either). I'm saying he treated Mathis' body callously by throwing him in the dumpster and for no good reason. Had there been a reason, maybe I'd be more willing to accept it, but there wasn't any. He just did it because the script wanted to make him look cold and businesslike.

4. I miss the literary Mathis, too; However, I'm glad they gave him this honorable a treatment, rather than what they did with the Felix character for years.

It was honorable until they shot him in the back and killed him and tossed him in a dumpster.

[byline]

It was honorable until they shot him in the back and killed him and tossed him in a dumpster.

But he was dead (and that was the fault of the police, not Bond). Up until the moment Mathis died, Bond treated him with the utmost tenderness. Once life had passed from Mathis's body, it was just a body, nothing more. Bond used Mathis's body in the same "helpful" way that Mathis used the bodies of the two Ugandans. Staging the body as he did bought him and Camille a bit more time. Mathis would have understood all of that, which is why Bond said as much to Camille.

Edited by byline, 27 November 2008 - 05:44 PM.

[00Twelve]

It was honorable until they shot him in the back and killed him and tossed him in a dumpster.

But he was dead (and that was the fault of the police, not Bond). Up until the moment Mathis died, Bond treated him with the utmost tenderness. Once life had passed from Mathis's body, it was just a body, nothing more. Bond used Mathis's body in the same "helpful" way that Mathis used the bodies of the two Ugandans. Staging the body as he did bought him and Camille a bit more time. Mathis would have understood all of that, which is why Bond said as much to Camille.

It was as close to a real situation as I've ever seen in Bond. I'd have found it SO distractingly unrealistic had Bond done stuff like put his hand on Mathis' forehead for no good reason or said something nonsensical like "no more problems" or just left him there on the street. I see many criticisms about Bond putting Mathis in the dumpster but I don't see any suggestions as to any other realistic options. It was basically leave him on the street or get him off the street. Bond chose the lesser of two evils. Taking him with them would have been dangerous (and just plain morbid), and well, who would really do that?

I'm sure I'm informed by my own personal opinion that bodies after death aren't sacred, but I certainly don't expect anyone to have that same perspective.

[Double-Oh Agent]

It was honorable until they shot him in the back and killed him and tossed him in a dumpster.

But he was dead (and that was the fault of the police, not Bond). Up until the moment Mathis died, Bond treated him with the utmost tenderness. Once life had passed from Mathis's body, it was just a body, nothing more. Bond used Mathis's body in the same "helpful" way that Mathis used the bodies of the two Ugandans. Staging the body as he did bought him and Camille a bit more time. Mathis would have understood all of that, which is why Bond said as much to Camille.

It was as close to a real situation as I've ever seen in Bond. I'd have found it SO distractingly unrealistic had Bond done stuff like put his hand on Mathis' forehead for no good reason or said something nonsensical like "no more problems" or just left him there on the street. I see many criticisms about Bond putting Mathis in the dumpster but I don't see any suggestions as to any other realistic options. It was basically leave him on the street or get him off the street. Bond chose the lesser of two evils. Taking him with them would have been dangerous (and just plain morbid), and well, who would really do that?

But there is no point for putting Mathis in the dumpster. Since Bond took his money to make it look like a robbery, all he had to do was leave Mathis where he was in the street. No robber is going to take the time to pick up a dead man he's just killed and toss him in a dumpster. He'd get the hell out of there as fast as he could. And Bond doesn't hide the body as Mathis is clearly visible in the dumpster so he's not gaining any extra time that way either. If Bond were to move Mathis, I could see him prop him up against the dumpster and leave the gun that killed the cops in his hand. That would more likely buy him some extra time to get away from the area and give Mathis a more "dignified/honorable" death.

[DR76]

Setting aside the fact that Mathis shouldn't have died as he is still alive in the novels, Bond's treatment of Mathis' body is very out of character.

Although the movie shared a title with a Fleming short story, the last thing I recall was that the cinematic "QUANTUM OF SOLACE" was not based upon any Fleming story. And so what if Mathis is dead? It's not like EON Productions have any more Fleming stories to adopt.

As for Mathis' body . . . it's just a body. It's dead. There was no more breath or soul within it.


You know what? I have my own complaints about "QoS", even if I do like the movie a lot. But some of these criticisms I've been reading come off as very shallow and borderline nitpicking.

Edited by DR76, 28 November 2008 - 07:55 AM.

[Byron]

It was honorable until they shot him in the back and killed him and tossed him in a dumpster.

But he was dead (and that was the fault of the police, not Bond). Up until the moment Mathis died, Bond treated him with the utmost tenderness. Once life had passed from Mathis's body, it was just a body, nothing more. Bond used Mathis's body in the same "helpful" way that Mathis used the bodies of the two Ugandans. Staging the body as he did bought him and Camille a bit more time. Mathis would have understood all of that, which is why Bond said as much to Camille.

It was as close to a real situation as I've ever seen in Bond. I'd have found it SO distractingly unrealistic had Bond done stuff like put his hand on Mathis' forehead for no good reason or said something nonsensical like "no more problems" or just left him there on the street. I see many criticisms about Bond putting Mathis in the dumpster but I don't see any suggestions as to any other realistic options. It was basically leave him on the street or get him off the street. Bond chose the lesser of two evils. Taking him with them would have been dangerous (and just plain morbid), and well, who would really do that?

But there is no point for putting Mathis in the dumpster. Since Bond took his money to make it look like a robbery, all he had to do was leave Mathis where he was in the street. No robber is going to take the time to pick up a dead man he's just killed and toss him in a dumpster. He'd get the hell out of there as fast as he could. And Bond doesn't hide the body as Mathis is clearly visible in the dumpster so he's not gaining any extra time that way either. If Bond were to move Mathis, I could see him prop him up against the dumpster and leave the gun that killed the cops in his hand. That would more likely buy him some extra time to get away from the area and give Mathis a more "dignified/honorable" death.

Agree. You have a great point that no robber would waste time dumping a body in the bin but leaving it half visible as well as 2 other dead bodies.

I reckon it was done purely as an attempt to "mix things up" or create "controversy".

[Jet Set Willy]

I think the dumper truck scene was designed to show the nastier side to Bond's job. Having to discard the body of a friend like that. It was the only place near by to take the body out of the road, and Bond would rather put it there out of the way, than leave it in the middle of the road. The fact that it was a garbage truck made it all the more gruesome.

It also showed how Bond himself has to deal with death in his profession. Once a body has passed away, it has no value anymore. Bond reflects this with his `he wouldn't care' comment, and also taking the money from the body. What use is cash to Mathis now?

It was a scene which unsettled the audience, and one which I don't have a problem with at all. I'd rather have had more of this in QoS, and less of speedboats and free-falling.

[byline]

I felt that taking the time to "hide" Mathis's body in the dumpster was meant to buy Bond and Camille a bit more time. Granted, it wasn't going to be much, but every little bit counts when you're trying to escape alive. So putting Mathis in the dumpster, rather than leaving him on the street, would create a bit more confusion, require a few more questions to answer. Again, it probably wasn't very long, but they needed every second they could get.

And yes, I agree with the previous poster who noted that this is one of the harsher aspects of Bond's profession, that he has to set aside his feelings to get the job done.

[frankwalker]

I'm also left wondering about this part of the dialog after Mathis is shot and dying on the street:
Bond: "Is Mathis your cover name?"
Mathis: "Yes."
Bond: "Not a very good one is it."

If Bond still suspected Mathis of disloyal conduct in some way, it might explain why the body was put in the dumpster.

[byline]

Someone else posted an idea in another forum, so this is not an original thought of mine, but I'll just rephrase because I think it has some validity:

This other poster described leaving Mathis's body in the dumpster as a sort of psychological snap back at death in general, with Vesper killed in "Casino Royale," and now his most trusted ally (as well as someone who was a direct link to Vesper) killed now. Here's the rest of the post (found here):

Throwing Mathis into the dumpster and angrily grumbling, "he won't care" might be a falsely stoic response to death, trying to look tough to cover up how hurt he is - except that it's painfully obvious that he can dish out death in revenge, but it's not going to change the fact that he's lost two people who meant a lot to him. Perhaps that's why he doesn't kill that guy in the end in Russia, because he's fed up of the pain caused by revenge, and he saw how it didn't help Camille.

[dogmanstar]

I'm also left wondering about this part of the dialog after Mathis is shot and dying on the street:
Bond: "Is Mathis your cover name?"
Mathis: "Yes."
Bond: "Not a very good one is it."

I didn't understand the purpose of that bit at all. It's not his cover name in the books and it doesn't add anything to the film.

[byline]

I'm also left wondering about this part of the dialog after Mathis is shot and dying on the street:
Bond: "Is Mathis your cover name?"
Mathis: "Yes."
Bond: "Not a very good one is it."

I didn't understand the purpose of that bit at all. It's not his cover name in the books and it doesn't add anything to the film.

My take on it was that Mathis used his real name as his cover name. Hence, Bond gently chiding him that it wasn't a very good one.