42 replies to this topic

[honeyjes]

The films have spanned over 40 years and during recent times I think the ruthless, cold side of Bond has been watered down and sanitised with quips and puns, he has never been a boy scout. DC’s incarnation I think harkens back to what the first set of films did so well, and that was to focus more on bond and not his accoutrements.

In the first film Dr No, he waits for professor Dent and shoots this unarmed man several times in the back, can you imagine the impact this had on the audience back then. Seeing an (anti)hero do this I imagine would have been as unsettling as the treatment of Mathis, if Bond had done this in QOS wouldn't we be outraged?

There are other instances of UNBONDIAN behaviour? Goldfinger, turning Pussy Galore straight was this not rape, Thunderball using Fiona Volpe as a human shield, DAF strangling a woman with her bikini top, FYEO kicking the car over the cliff, TMWTGG doesn’t he twists an arm and slaps a woman, I’m sure there are other incidents of the cold bond, so for those decrying his treatment of Mathis can you please explain why these other acts are ok.

In the books doesn’t he also take Benzedrine, and it’s possible this part of Bond is also in QOS, after all Mathis does have pills for everything.

Some of us seem to forget that Bond is first and foremost a professional spy/assassin the book Bond was not always bedding women, drinking martinis, announcing who he is to all in hearing distance and driving fast cars.

One of the reasons he’s a 00 is his ability to close off and compartmentalise whilst on the job, if he wasn’t able to do this he would be a basket case. More often than not expediency is the order of the day grieving and retrospect comes later.

It’s been a long time since we’ve seen less of the sugar coated PC Bond and I guess this is unsettling for some but a welcome change for others. We are now seeing more of the book Bond and I welcome the change for what has been to date primarily an abridged version of Fleming's character.

[001carus]

Very true. Couldn't have said it better. Good read, and I wholeheartedly agree.

[ImTheMoneypenny]

Well said honeyjes!

Like I've said on threads, Bond isn't paid to party around the world, he's paid to kill. People seem to, or perhaps want to, forget that dark aspect.

[pgram]

The treatment of Mathis is not shocking, it's just unnecessary. It is yet one moment in QoS where they knew what they wanted to do, but not how to do it.

I 'm a person that can't practically be shocked by anything. So, can someone please explain to me what purpose did placing him in the rubbish bin serve?

As far as the scenes from previous films mentioned are concerned, it's not what you do, it's how you do it. Yes, bond is a brutal assasin, etc etc but there are many ways to present this. So, even though I agree with you, there's nothing shocking or new in Mathis' treatment, the examples mentioned don't add much to your argument. To explain what i mean, let me give you another example: one could argue that Jinx coming out of the sea is a homage to DN, or even a parallel to it. In fact it isn't. It is a clear case of misunderstanding why the Andress' scene worked. It is a brutal disrespectful ignorant copy. Now, don't get me wrong on that, I 'm not claiming that's the case with Mathis. I 'm just saying that something similar that's happened in a previous film, doesn't justify what happens in a next one. It all depends on the mood and the feel of the film.

And, even though I mainly disagree with them, people who claim that the Mathis scene was unBondish, do so because the whole film's atmosphere didn't make up for such an action. There's a lot of literature on the subject, one can always refer to.

Edited by pgram, 24 November 2008 - 02:12 PM.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Setting aside the fact that Mathis shouldn't have died as he is still alive in the novels, Bond's treatment of Mathis' body is very out of character.

Mathis, along with Tanner and Leiter, is one of Bond's best friends. He would never callously and cold-heartedly treat his friend's body that way, particularly when it serves no purpose for him to do so. See Dr. No and Quarrel. Quarrel is just killed. Does Bond just walk away? No, he turns to pay his respects to the body only to nearly get his foot shot off before being forced to walk away. In From Russia With Love, he squeezes the dead Kerim Bey's shoulder. In the novels, he is greatly affected and upset when his friends and allies are killed, but he manages to push those feelings quickly aside to get on with his duty. He doesn't toss his friends in dumpsters. Additionally, I don't think Bond would just sit with his dying friend and do nothing. He would have put him in the back of the SUV and driven like hell to the hospital whether he was likely to get there in time to save Mathis or not.

In addition, putting Mathis in the dumpster makes absolutely no sense. If it's to hide the body, he failed. You can see the dead motorcycle cops in the background in one shot and Mathis' arm ends up draped over the edge of the dumpster. Why couldn't Bond have just left Mathis in the road or propped him up against the dumpster? I understand him taking the money but not the rest of it. The whole scene didn't work for me.

[Bondian]

Setting aside the fact that Mathis shouldn't have died as he is still alive in the novels, Bond's treatment of Mathis' body is very out of character.

Mathis, along with Tanner and Leiter, is one of Bond's best friends. He would never callously and cold-heartedly treat his friend's body that way, particularly when it serves no purpose for him to do so. See Dr. No and Quarrel. Quarrel is just killed. Does Bond just walk away? No, he turns to pay his respects to the body only to nearly get his foot shot off before being forced to walk away. In From Russia With Love, he squeezes the dead Kerim Bey's shoulder. In the novels, he is greatly affected and upset when his friends and allies are killed, but he manages to push those feelings quickly aside to get on with his duty. He doesn't toss his friends in dumpsters. Additionally, I don't think Bond would just sit with his dying friend and do nothing. He would have put him in the back of the SUV and driven like hell to the hospital whether he was likely to get there in time to save Mathis or not.

In addition, putting Mathis in the dumpster makes absolutely no sense. If it's to hide the body, he failed. You can see the dead motorcycle cops in the background in one shot and Mathis' arm ends up draped over the edge of the dumpster. Why couldn't Bond have just left Mathis in the road or propped him up against the dumpster? I understand him taking the money but not the rest of it. The whole scene didn't work for me.

Yeah. And those two cops looked ridiculous as well. Yet another scene that made me go

[honeyjes]

If the scene doesn't work for you fair enough, but you can't have it both ways, as he did stay with Mathis until the end and then set aside his feelings and got on with his job, if he'd left the dying Mathis I could see your point.

Mathis's body being propped up and found with the corrupt officers may be more aestecially pleasing but I don't think his corpse would receive any better treatment from the authorities. If not found straightaway, retrieval would be possible and easier and if found in the dumpster he could be perceived as victim this also buys Bond time, Mathis knows the score he even says in CR the dead can be useful (can't remember the exact wording).

As for Mathis in the books not dying, there are many instances of the cinematic Bond taking liberties with characters, weaponry and vehicles, has Leiter ever been portrayed as a lanky blond texan.

[Bondian]

If the scene doesn't work for you fair enough, but you can't have it both ways, as he did stay with Mathis until the end and then set aside his feelings and got on with his job, if he'd left the dying Mathis I could see your point.

He could have shoved him in his car instead of the skip/dumpster though?

[CaptainPower]

I actually like the scene, and agree with you, but I can understand why it drew laughter in every screening of the film I've been to.

[byline]

If the scene doesn't work for you fair enough, but you can't have it both ways, as he did stay with Mathis until the end and then set aside his feelings and got on with his job, if he'd left the dying Mathis I could see your point.

He could have shoved him in his car instead of the skip/dumpster though?

I thought the point of leaving Mathis in a dumpster (and also taking the money from his wallet) was to stage it so that it looked like a robbery. Of course, that ruse was only temporary, and Bond knew it, but it bought him and Camille enough time to make their escape.

[joshkhenderson]

He could have shoved him in his car instead of the skip/dumpster though?

Oh, yeah, that would have smelled great. And he certainly would have been able to trade the Land Rover for the DC3 with a corpse in the back. I've heard it said that the smell of dead humans is the only thing the human body does not grow accustomed to over time.

I particularly like the idea that putting Mathis in the dumpster keeps him out of the public eye. Still degrading, but more likely unseen until authorities arrive.

[Double-Oh Agent]

If the scene doesn't work for you fair enough, but you can't have it both ways, as he did stay with Mathis until the end and then set aside his feelings and got on with his job, if he'd left the dying Mathis I could see your point.

Mathis's body being propped up and found with the corrupt officers may be more aestecially pleasing but I don't think his corpse would receive any better treatment from the authorities. If not found straightaway, retrieval would be possible and easier and if found in the dumpster he could be perceived as victim this also buys Bond time, Mathis knows the score he even says in CR the dead can be useful (can't remember the exact wording).

As for Mathis in the books not dying, there are many instances of the cinematic Bond taking liberties with characters, weaponry and vehicles, has Leiter ever been portrayed as a lanky blond texan.

I'm not having it both ways. As long as Mathis was alive Bond would have done anything to keep him alive like putting him in the back of the car and drivimg like hell to get him to a hospital. I don't think it's in Bond's character to just sit there and do nothing other than hold Mathis.

It's not about the authorities' treatment of Mathis when they found his body, it's about Bond's treatment of his friend's body after he died, and his treatment of Mathis' body is definitely something that his character would never do. And why couldn't Bond have staged a robbery with Mathis' body lying in the street? All he to do was leave Mathis' wallet lying on the ground next to him without the money. There's no need to put Mathis in a dumpster. When was the last time a robber shot and killed a victim and then took the time to pick the body up and dump it in a dumpster? They simply take the money and run.

Yes, the Bond producers have taken liberties over the years, but they don't kill off characters--much less much-beloved characters--who live on in the novels.

[Paul Scrabo]

"Yes, the Bond producers have taken liberties over the years, but they don't kill off characters--much less much-beloved characters--who live on in the novels."

Good point. Understand that I get no joy in knocking this latest Bond film. I can find good things in all of them, but this is a clumsy film to me, where nothing, technical or artistic, is done well. I don't need "the biggest Bond of all", etc. just a nice Bond film. I was grasping, looking for something, and was so happy when Mathis appeared.
I would have been happier if they threw the screenplay into the trash. My dissapointment has nothing to do with Bond being ruthless. I see no connection with this and Prof. Dent, etc, because Mathis was a character that was very interesting and likable. Mathis should have been with Bond at the end of the film, his friend, his teacher, perhaps.
Paul

Edited by Paul Scrabo, 24 November 2008 - 09:27 PM.

[plankattack]

Bond holds Mathis because he knows it's curtains for him, and Mathis knows too. Bond throws him the dumpster and says "he wouldn't mind" because in his opinion, Mathis wouldn't. Thanks to Giannini's terrific (though arguably underused) interpretation of the character, I definitely believe that Mathis is a little world-weary, and overall understands how the game is played so to speak.

If Bond was running around looking for the nearest hospital, we'd all be up in arms about that not being the Bond we know and love etc.

It was cold and cynical. But it fit both characters.

[Judo chop]

As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the beloved scenes in Bond.

It's practical. It's horribly efficient. (I'm loving that phrase these days.)

It's both cold and tender.

It speaks to Bond as a character and it speaks to Mathis as a character.

And it seems I'm always just one post behind Plankattack saying the same things he is. That fiend.

[Ravenstone]

As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the beloved scenes in Bond.

It's practical. It's horribly efficient. (I'm loving that phrase these days.)

It's both cold and tender.

It speaks to Bond as a character and it speaks to Mathis as a character.

And it seems I'm always just one post behind Plankattack saying the same things he is. That fiend.

I agree.

There's an old saying - a bit of help is worth a ton of sympathy. Bond stays with Mathis, he doesn't let him die alone. Once he's dead, though, he's no longer Mathis. He's a shell. He's gone. It's a question of how sentimental you are. Personally, I'm as sentimental as the next person, but I have no problems whatsoever with Bond dumping the dead body in the dumpster and getting on with business.

[stromberg]

There's more to this scene than meets the eye.

There we have him, Mathis, a seasoned pro, maybe a former Double-O, stationed in South America for a few years, MI6 resident in Montenegro etc. Gone through to hell of being mistaken for a traitor by his own people, coming out of retirement and going on a final mission with this young chap James Bond.

Bond knows perfectly well that his own life as a secret agent could take the same turns as Mathis', and he's well aware that his own end could be very similar: shot from behind in a dark road in some remote place of the world. "I've heard that Double-Os have a short lifetime expectancy, so your mistake may be short lived." He doesn't give a damn.

"He wouldn't care" that's what he says after dumping Mathis. But what Bond actually meant to say was "I wouldn't care", seeing his own possible fate right in front of him.

[ImTheMoneypenny]

"He wouldn't care" that's what he says after dumping Mathis. But what Bond actually meant to say was "I wouldn't care", seeing his own possible fate right in front of him.

Good take on this scene, stromberg. I see what you mean.

[HildebrandRarity]

I think the Death Of Mathis scene is cool all around. Great, great acting. Full marks. Awsome. Loved it to bits.

Craig shows more here that anything Lazenby could muster during Tracy's death scene in Majesty's.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Craig shows more here that anything Lazenby could muster during Tracy's death scene in Majesty's.

I disagree. Lazenby was terrific in that scene. He more than holds his own there.

[Professor Dent]

"He wouldn't care" that's what he says after dumping Mathis. But what Bond actually meant to say was "I wouldn't care", seeing his own possible fate right in front of him.

Good take on this scene, stromberg. I see what you mean.

Very interesting take. This is the best, & most plausible, explanation that I have heard.

[byline]

"He wouldn't care" that's what he says after dumping Mathis. But what Bond actually meant to say was "I wouldn't care", seeing his own possible fate right in front of him.

Excellent point. Bravo!

[OO4]

I agree with the others who think the scene was well done. I gotta say this scene really was in character for DC's Bond. Both Bond and Mathis knew he was as good as dead. A mad dash to the nearest hospital in a city of corrupt cops out to kill you would have been the last thing Bond would have done. He did all he could to ease the man's death.

As for the treatment of the body? Putting him away from the cops into the dumpster instead of leaving him by the dead cops would have left alot more questions and taken more time to figure out for whomever arrived.

Edited by OO4, 26 November 2008 - 04:27 AM.

[sharpshooter]

Great scene. There’s a lot going on. From the humour of attempting to pay off an apparently corrupt police force, the unexpected discovery and shock shooting of Mathis, subtle rage before comforting his dying friend – to the cold hard reality of death and Mathis being placed in the rubbish.

[Trident]

A very good point that Bond identifies with Mathis in this situation and really means 'I wouldn't care' when he states that Mathis wouldn't care. Haven't seen it this way yet.

My own thoughts were that Mathis has just died in Bond’s arms, consoled by him as best he could under the circumstances. An ally that might have become a friend, had there been but more time. Bond is moved in this situation. And he doesn't want to leave this man, that just died in his arms, lying on the same ground as his murderers.

It's Bond who does care, who feels he has to give Mathis a seperate place. There really is no need to bury Mathis in the bin other than Bond not wanting him to lie in the dirt of the street.

[Double-Oh Agent]

A very good point that Bond identifies with Mathis in this situation and really means 'I wouldn't care' when he states that Mathis wouldn't care. Haven't seen it this way yet.

My own thoughts were that Mathis has just died in Bond’s arms, consoled by him as best he could under the circumstances. Any ally that might have become a friend, had there been but more time. Bond is moved in this situation. And he doesn't want to leave this man, that just died in his arms, lying on the same ground as his murderers.

It's Bond who does care, who feels he has to give Mathis a seperate place. There really is no need to bury Mathis in the bin other than Bond not wanting him to lie in the dirt of the street.

Lying in dirt/asphalt next to crooked cops is not okay, but lying in a bunch of strangers' refuse bin a couple of feet away is? I don't buy it at all. Bond would never treat a friend that way. He may not care if his own dead body was dropped in a dumpster, but he'd never put a friend, much less a good friend, in one. This scene--including Mathis' death--and the poor editing are my biggest gripes about the film and combine to bring it down a couple of notches from what it could have been.

[Trident]

Lying in dirt/asphalt next to crooked cops is not okay, but lying in a bunch of strangers' refuse bin a couple of feet away is? I don't buy it at all.

But this is the whole point of this scene: it's not a rational decision/act but one out of emotion. It's a symbolic funeral. I feel it's a bit like the hand of sand Bond pours over Quarrel's charred remains in 'Doctor No'.

Bond would never treat a friend that way. He may not care if his own dead body was dropped in a dumpster, but he'd never put a friend, much less a good friend, in one.

I'm not sure if Mathis really has become a friend to Bond. There actually is only very little time for them to develop their relationship. Bond feels he owns Mathis for wrongly accusing him of treason. But he really turns to Mathis to use his funds, contacts and expertise in South America. And he obviously wonders if he'll himself end up the way Mathis does, with a very attractive and considerably younger female companion. Not all of this is envy, some of it would (to me) seem like pity and Bond, who rarely commiserates, least of all his own possible fate, quickly telling himself that he really just envies Mathis for this comfortable retirement.

This scene--including Mathis' death--and the poor editing are my biggest gripes about the film and combine to bring it down a couple of notches from what it could have been.

Sorry, you didn't like it. To me, it's one of the particular strong moments. It really defeats attempts to analyse it entirely, leaving much of it to our own imagination.

[Pierce - Daniel]

The MAthis scene's are fantastic, I loved them all, in both movies. His relationship with Bond is fantastic, even in CR, he had alot more to do in QOS. His arc is very strong and really helps define Bond. I really loved it, he's my favorate Bond ally.

[byline]

Something else just occurred to me: I wonder if Greene's "everything he touches seems to wither and die" remark was in part a warning to Bond of what was happening to Mathis, but Bond didn't realize it because of the more obvious reference to Vesper, Solange, etc. It was directed at Camille, of course, but it could have been intended to foreshadow what was to happen to Fields, as well. So many interesting subtleties in this film that, at first glance, appear to be rather obvious, but at least potentially have more layers of meaning.

[Judo chop]

From the humour of attempting to pay off an apparently corrupt police force

I heard about this after my first viewing, and looked for it in my second. I can't say I see it. He pulls out his money clip which also has his ID. Yeah, he's holding money, but it's only circumstantial. There's never any indication that he tries to pay them as far as I can tell.

Something else just occurred to me: I wonder if Greene's "everything he touches seems to wither and die" remark was in part a warning to Bond of what was happening to Mathis, but Bond didn't realize it because of the more obvious reference to Vesper, Solange, etc. It was directed at Camille, of course, but it could have been intended to foreshadow what was to happen to Fields, as well. So many interesting subtleties in this film that, at first glance, appear to be rather obvious, but at least potentially have more layers of meaning.

Excellent observation byline! Probably only a forecast for Fields since we see her alive and well right around this time, but Mathis may have been meeting his fate (or the start of it anyway) right at that very moment.

Let there be no doubt that QOS is a film which needs to be revisited! I'm excited to see it for a third time, even if Bond doesn't pay off the cops.