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No more 'revenge - this time its personal"


48 replies to this topic

#1 ForMathis

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 11:17 PM

For Bond 23 and beyond I'd like them to go back to the traditional "mission" plot-style which served the Connery/Moore films well.

I'd love for Bond to continue to go after Quantum in future movies but I have no desire to see M kidnapped, Bond have to face an old-friend turned enemy, and I definitely don't want another revenge movie.


I just wish Bond could be motivated by his job. Revenge is really so overdone. Yeah, I get it. This time it´s personal. And this time, too. And next time, hey, it´s personal. Maybe he could go rogue in Bond 23?

M calls Bond into his office. (yes, his)

M assigns Bond to do his job.

Bond does it.

Gee, those were the days, right?


I agree you totally. When did we last watched a totally mission oriented 007 film, TND or even TLD ? I hope the personal plots end, even for a while with Bond 23.

This makes great Connery and Moore than the other four.


Not a revenge film again! :(



Any other opinions on this?

#2 Mister E

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 11:40 PM

This revenge angle seems so tired because they have used it since LICENCE TO KILL but only CASINO ROYALE has ever done the idea justice. After of QUANTUM OF SOLACE, yes, it would be nice to get away from the revenge thing.

#3 Turn

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 12:44 AM

I've been calling for this for a long time now. A lot of us liked Bond because he gave it his all in a mission for King/Queen and Country; there didn't have to be a personal motivation in there to keep it interesting.

The revenge thing has run its course now. Over and over and over.

#4 Mister E

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 12:50 AM

I've been calling for this for a long time now. A lot of us liked Bond because he gave it his all in a mission for King/Queen and Country; there didn't have to be a personal motivation in there to keep it interesting.

The revenge thing has run its course now. Over and over and over.


Hmm, well at some point Bond always feels it's personal. Like in DN, Bond was clearly saddened and then later expressed his vengance over the death of Quarrel. Take FRWL and the death of Ali Kerim Bey, Bond was pissed about that too. Now if we kept the revenge element like that, it would be just fine and would never exuast itself because like I said earlier, since LTK it's become far too much of the plot.

#5 jaguar007

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 12:50 AM

I'm looking forward to the revenge angle in QoS because it is basically giving us what should have been for DAF. However after QoS I really want an assignment with no revenge aspect.

#6 Mister E

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 12:52 AM

I'm looking forward to the revenge angle in QoS because it is basically giving us what should have been for DAF. However after QoS I really want an assignment with no revenge aspect.


Imagine if QOS started out like DAF ! :(

#7 Dell Deaton

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 12:53 AM

Done? The theme is over-done, in my opinion.

The so-called "reboot" reasoning only goes so far as well. Yes, it may be the plot of Casino Royale. But elements of that story have been borrowed and the juice squeezed out of the lemon.

I remember reading Moonraker for the first time and just being thrilled by the details of Bond's routine, what he liked as well as didn't, "the assignment," et cetera. Today, I'm almost left wondering if the ability to do that, and do it well, has maybe been lost.

But to me, that is classic Ian Fleming!

#8 PrinceKamalKhan

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 01:19 AM

For Bond 23 and beyond I'd like them to go back to the traditional "mission" plot-style which served the Connery/Moore films well.

I'd love for Bond to continue to go after Quantum in future movies but I have no desire to see M kidnapped, Bond have to face an old-friend turned enemy, and I definitely don't want another revenge movie.


ITA. The subtitle under the title for Bond 23/Risico/Property of a Lady/Shatterhand/The Hilderbrand Rarity or whatever they call it should be

"This time, it's not personal."

#9 Quantumofsolace007

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 01:32 AM

meh i don't mind revenge however i don't mind the non personal ideas either.

#10 ForMathis

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:22 PM

slightly off-topic, but I think Tom Tykwer (Tick-ver) would be the perfect choice to direct Bond 23. He is a great visual and dramatic director.

#11 DamnCoffee

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:26 PM

I'm looking forward to the revenge angle in QoS because it is basically giving us what should have been for DAF. However after QoS I really want an assignment with no revenge aspect.


Imagine if QOS started out like DAF ! :)


;)

Do NOT even joke about these things. :) :(

#12 tdalton

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:52 PM

As someone else already said, I don't mind having the revenge theme this time because we could finally be getting the film that we should have gotten with DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER. After QUANTUM OF SOLACE, however, I would like to see the revenge theme go untouched for a while and go back to having Bond just go out on a mission and have it not be personal for a change.

#13 DamnCoffee

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:56 PM

To be fair, nearly everyone Bond movie is a revenge story...

Dr. No - Strangways, Quarrel
From Russia With Love - Kerim
Goldfinger - Tilly and Jill
Thunderball - Paula
You Only Live Twice - Aki
Live and Let Die - Three Agents.
Tomorrow Never Dies - Paris
Die Another Day - Himself
GoldenEye - Himself
The World is not Enough - Robert King

:(

#14 Dell Deaton

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 08:50 PM

To be fair, nearly everyone Bond movie is a revenge story...

Dr. No - Strangways, Quarrel
From Russia With Love - Kerim
Goldfinger - Tilly and Jill
Thunderball - Paula
You Only Live Twice - Aki
Live and Let Die - Three Agents.
Tomorrow Never Dies - Paris
Die Another Day - Himself
GoldenEye - Himself
The World is not Enough - Robert King

:(

  • Diamonds Are Forever - Tracy (unspoken)
  • Licence to Kill - Felix


#15 Joyce Carrington

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 08:39 AM

I agree it shouldn't always be a revenge thing. But I do really like the idea of Bond having some sort of emotional attachment. There could be something about the mission or the villain's plot or the Bond girl's story that is mirrored in Bond's personal life and eventually helps him to deal with some issue of his own. Kind of like LTK and QoS I suppose, but without Bond having to kill the bad guy to make himself feel better (of course he will kill the bad guy, but just because the mission calls for it).

Or, and this is what I actually like more, seeing Bond getting more and more depressed and bitter due to the nature of his job - moral ambiguity is a wonderful thing. :)

I guess I just do like to see Bond as a 'modern complex guy'. :(

#16 Joey Bond

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 11:42 AM

To be fair, nearly everyone Bond movie is a revenge story...

Dr. No - Strangways, Quarrel
From Russia With Love - Kerim
Goldfinger - Tilly and Jill
Thunderball - Paula
You Only Live Twice - Aki
Live and Let Die - Three Agents.
Tomorrow Never Dies - Paris
Die Another Day - Himself
GoldenEye - Himself
The World is not Enough - Robert King

:(


But these ones, maybe except Die Another Day, the 'revenge angle' is very small and subtly inserted, almost as a secondary plot, a side mission.

So yeah I wouldn't mind a revenge angle subtly put in as a side mission for Bond 23, but enough of making it the central plot.

#17 ForMathis

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 01:20 AM

I wouldn't mind a revenge angle subtly put in as a side mission for Bond 23, but enough of making it the central plot.


Agreed. B)

#18 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 02:39 AM

This revenge angle seems so tired because they have used it since LICENCE TO KILL but only CASINO ROYALE has ever done the idea justice. After of QUANTUM OF SOLACE, yes, it would be nice to get away from the revenge thing.


CR (the movie and the novel of the same name) doesn't have any revenge angle. The film that has that is QOS.

#19 tdalton

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 02:41 AM

This revenge angle seems so tired because they have used it since LICENCE TO KILL but only CASINO ROYALE has ever done the idea justice. After of QUANTUM OF SOLACE, yes, it would be nice to get away from the revenge thing.


CR (the movie and the novel of the same name) doesn't have any revenge angle. The film that has that is QOS.


Agreed. There was no revenge angle to CR, unless we're going to count the very end of the movie, where Bond shows up at Mr. White's villa, at least partially, for revenge (but also because it's his duty to track down the money he lost as well).

#20 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 02:51 AM

To be fair, nearly everyone Bond movie is a revenge story...

Dr. No - Strangways, Quarrel
From Russia With Love - Kerim
Goldfinger - Tilly and Jill
Thunderball - Paula
You Only Live Twice - Aki
Live and Let Die - Three Agents.
Tomorrow Never Dies - Paris
Die Another Day - Himself
GoldenEye - Himself
The World is not Enough - Robert King

B)


But these ones, maybe except Die Another Day, the 'revenge angle' is very small and subtly inserted, almost as a secondary plot, a side mission.

So yeah I wouldn't mind a revenge angle subtly put in as a side mission for Bond 23, but enough of making it the central plot.

I believe that the only time when revenge was the only motivation for Bond was in LTK (within the EON series). And IMO, that was one of the major problems with that movie's plot.

#21 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 11:48 AM

For Bond 23 and beyond I'd like them to go back to the traditional "mission" plot-style which served the Connery/Moore films well.

I'd love for Bond to continue to go after Quantum in future movies but I have no desire to see M kidnapped, Bond have to face an old-friend turned enemy, and I definitely don't want another revenge movie.

Yeah, you completely missed the point of QUANTUM OF SOLACE didn't you? Bond isn't out for revenge because there's no-one to revenge himself upon: Vesper killed herself. Instead, he's out looking for answers and for Yusuf, the person who put Vesper in a position where her only choice was suicide. Greene is a means to an end; as Bond points out in the sinkhole, "It seems we're both using Greene to get to someone." Bond wants Yusuf to be called into account while Camlle is looking to kill Medrano. The much-touted revenge aspect comes into play because everyone thinks Bond is looking for revenge, that's he's so overcome with grief that he has fixated on Dominic Greene as the man responsible - despite Greene only having an indirect connection to Vesper in that he knew of her through Yusuf - and that he's on a mission to kill Greene.

LICENCE TO KILL is the only real revenge film in the franchise, though GOLDENEYE skirts the issue with M warning Bond not to go on a personal vendetta, and THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH features Elektra getting revenge on MI6. Hell, even FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE deals with it as SPECTRE's plans are bon out of the desire to get rvenge on Bond for killing Dr. No.

#22 fsartono

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 02:21 PM

i'd like to see Bond go on a mission which contradicts his personal principles and value system .. where he has to make a choice between being loyal to his country or being loyal to himself

#23 Eurospy

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 08:07 PM

Er, Bond ISN't after revenge in QUANTUM?!

Seems we watched different movies then.

Of course he doesn't outright say it, but he's lying, both to himself and to M.

M on the other hand seems to see right through him. He wants revenge not only for Vesper (doesn't matter that she killed herself, it all boils down to Quantum's shady deals), but for the life he was denied. He could have been happy with her and drop the half-monk half-hitman life, but that chance was taken from him.

And so on.

The movie's plot is clear enough. Doesn't really take a rocket scientist.

#24 MajorB

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 08:59 PM

In interviews, Craig has insisted that Bond in fact is not out for revenge--hence "I never left"--but that M and others believe he is throughout much of the film. IMO, a weakness of the script is that this point is never clearly communicated. You can infer that Bond found his solace in the end by confirming that Vesper really was victimized by Quantum, and that getting at Greene was his means to that end. But since you don't know that that's what he's after until the end--and even then, as I said, you basically have to think it out rather than experiencing it with Bond--I don't think it's unreasonable for some viewers to conclude that it is a revenge film.

#25 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 09:58 PM

i'd like to see Bond go on a mission which contradicts his personal principles and value system .. where he has to make a choice between being loyal to his country or being loyal to himself

That already happened in LTK, in someway (because her majesty's government needed him on a mission in Istanbul, not in Isthmus). And IMO, it didn't work well. Besides that would be a too american type of story for Bond.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 01 April 2009 - 10:05 PM.


#26 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 01 April 2009 - 10:16 PM

In interviews, Craig has insisted that Bond in fact is not out for revenge--hence "I never left"--but that M and others believe he is throughout much of the film. IMO, a weakness of the script is that this point is never clearly communicated. You can infer that Bond found his solace in the end by confirming that Vesper really was victimized by Quantum, and that getting at Greene was his means to that end. But since you don't know that that's what he's after until the end--and even then, as I said, you basically have to think it out rather than experiencing it with Bond--I don't think it's unreasonable for some viewers to conclude that it is a revenge film.

Totally agree!! I understood the same as you, MajorB, form this film- and I actually prefer this approach to a real revenge angle-. But then again, this is one the problems with the 'subtleties' of QOS, it allows severals misunderstandings.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 01 April 2009 - 10:18 PM.


#27 Martini

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 12:28 AM

I would say that revenge is essential for the character of Bond. The final lines of Casino Royale are an oath of vengeance which define Bonds motivation for all following novels, especially his encounters with Smersh. That´s why I don´t like Craigs opinion of QOS being a closure, from which they could go anywhere. Flemings Bond didn´t find that closure, and that was pushing him on, and made his adventures fascinating.

#28 tdalton

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 04:33 AM

For Bond 23 and beyond I'd like them to go back to the traditional "mission" plot-style which served the Connery/Moore films well.

I'd love for Bond to continue to go after Quantum in future movies but I have no desire to see M kidnapped, Bond have to face an old-friend turned enemy, and I definitely don't want another revenge movie.

Yeah, you completely missed the point of QUANTUM OF SOLACE didn't you? Bond isn't out for revenge because there's no-one to revenge himself upon: Vesper killed herself. Instead, he's out looking for answers and for Yusuf, the person who put Vesper in a position where her only choice was suicide. Greene is a means to an end; as Bond points out in the sinkhole, "It seems we're both using Greene to get to someone." Bond wants Yusuf to be called into account while Camlle is looking to kill Medrano. The much-touted revenge aspect comes into play because everyone thinks Bond is looking for revenge, that's he's so overcome with grief that he has fixated on Dominic Greene as the man responsible - despite Greene only having an indirect connection to Vesper in that he knew of her through Yusuf - and that he's on a mission to kill Greene.

LICENCE TO KILL is the only real revenge film in the franchise, though GOLDENEYE skirts the issue with M warning Bond not to go on a personal vendetta, and THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH features Elektra getting revenge on MI6. Hell, even FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE deals with it as SPECTRE's plans are bon out of the desire to get rvenge on Bond for killing Dr. No.


Completely agreed on the focus of the film. I think that this is where QOS is a rather bold film, in that the true villain of the film is on screen for less than five minutes, and is really only spoken about for a moment at the beginning of the film, and then once again at the end. When Bond takes the picture of Vesper and Yusef, we know that his main focus is going to be to find this man and bring him to some form of justice. Dominic Greene just happened to have the misfortune of having handed over some of the marked money that Le Chiffre had to pay for his dealings with Slate. If those marked bills weren't there, Bond never comes into contact with Greene (at least not in this film), but would have had to take another route to find the whereabouts of Yusef.

Edited by tdalton, 02 April 2009 - 04:38 AM.


#29 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 04:59 AM

I would say that revenge is essential for the character of Bond. The final lines of Casino Royale are an oath of vengeance which define Bonds motivation for all following novels, especially his encounters with Smersh. That´s why I don´t like Craigs opinion of QOS being a closure, from which they could go anywhere. Flemings Bond didn´t find that closure, and that was pushing him on, and made his adventures fascinating.

I don't see any "oath of vengeance" in the last chapter of Casino Royale. Attacking "the arm that held the whip and the gun. The business of espionage could be left to the white-collar boys. They could spy, and catch the spies. He would go after the threat behind the spies, the threat that made them spy"; was just Bond finding a better approach for his job, just that.

#30 Eurospy

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Posted 02 April 2009 - 07:51 AM

In interviews, Craig has insisted that Bond in fact is not out for revenge--hence "I never left"--but that M and others believe he is throughout much of the film. IMO, a weakness of the script is that this point is never clearly communicated. You can infer that Bond found his solace in the end by confirming that Vesper really was victimized by Quantum, and that getting at Greene was his means to that end. But since you don't know that that's what he's after until the end--and even then, as I said, you basically have to think it out rather than experiencing it with Bond--I don't think it's unreasonable for some viewers to conclude that it is a revenge film.


Not wanting to yank your chain, in spite of whatever Craig says or might say, how come his character arc is not about revenge in QoS?

Plot-wise, that's true, the plot is not about revenge, it's about discovering that there is a group called Quantum, who is part of it and what do they want. And then we see one of the masterplans unfolding.

But Bond's character arc is all about revenge in QoS.

Bond's character arc in Casino Royale was complete in terms of him becoming a 00, how he became one, how he used his status (a bit too gung ho at the beginning, where he actually does the unthinkable and breaks into an embassy), the fact that he needs to be a bit more cold-blooded not only in his killings, but any other actions of his as well.

In Quantum he deals with the consequences of what happened in the third act of CR.
He goes outside of what already is a shady system, and goes about his mission a bit like a bull in a china shop, because his rage is still there boiling just beneath the surface. And that comes for his betrayal.

He might not be sure if he wants revenge for Vesper's death itself or for her betrayal ("did she ever love him?").

The way he disposes of Greene might not be as cinematic in terms of climax as many might expect, but his act of leaving him in the desert is actually more sadistic than just shooting him in the head. He neither executed him nor did he bring him in for further interrogation.

Thus plot-wise, the plot is not about revenge, but about the villain's caper.

But his character arc couldn't be more about revenge. And of course that who/what caused Vesper's death is not a single villain but an entire group, which is a bit more abstract and wouldn't make much sense in the movie for Bond to seek revenge on an entire group that operates in such way on a global scale.

But it is Bond who drives the plot. And that is why don't understand why it wouldn't be considered a revenge movie.

Revenge, like betrayals and others as such, comes in many different shapes and forms. And for Vesper's death, he already had his, since he gave Quantum one heck of a blow and resolved within himselfthat particular issue of her death/betrayal ("forgive her, forgive yourself").