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Most overrated/underrated Bond film


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#241 glidrose

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 01:28 AM

Choosing only one for each problem, I´d say:

MOST OVERRATED: GOLDENEYE

MOST UNDERRATED: A VIEW TO A KILL


Great minds think alike.
 
 

Overrated:
FRWL, OHMSS, TSWLM, TLD, GE

TLD and GE are on my "worst" list. Let me quote our own menacing moderator Jim on GE: "nothing much actually happens and then it ends."

The other "overrated" films are mid-level for me.

DN, FYEO, NSNA and TWINE were at one point overrated but their reputations have gone into decline.

Underrated:
GF, TB, MR, OCT, AVTAK, TND, DAD

Oddly, my chronological "underrated" list also descends in order of merit. DAD is only mid-level for me.

I shouldn't have to add GF to the underrated list, but I shall. It's become quite the thing to criticize on this board.

As for the polarising Bond films:
pro-LTK
anti-QoS
anti-DAF


Add to the overrated list Skyfall. Not bad, just not great or anywhere near close.

#242 sharpshooter

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:36 AM

I think AVTAK is one of the most underrated films in the franchise. I’ve been swaying to this opinion gradually over time. I used to readily dismiss it as the tired, too old Roger Moore one. But it’s a lot more than that. There’s some fun action – the pre-titles, Paris car chase and the horse riding duel. The score and song rock. Tibbet is a good ally, their master/servant routine is excellent. Zorin and May Day are a memorable villain combination. The scenes at Stacey’s house are a bit dull, and I don’t like Stacey all that much. I don’t think the last half is as good – but the high points of AVTAK get it across the line. I think there's a lot to like here.



#243 tdalton

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:24 AM

I think AVTAK is one of the most underrated films in the franchise. I’ve been swaying to this opinion gradually over time. I used to readily dismiss it as the tired, too old Roger Moore one. But it’s a lot more than that. There’s some fun action – the pre-titles, Paris car chase and the horse riding duel. The score and song rock. Tibbet is a good ally, their master/servant routine is excellent. Zorin and May Day are a memorable villain combination. The scenes at Stacey’s house are a bit dull, and I don’t like Stacey all that much. I don’t think the last half is as good – but the high points of AVTAK get it across the line. I think there's a lot to like here.

 

Very much agreed.  A View to a Kill is definitely one of the more underrated films in the franchise.



#244 Major Tallon

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:27 AM

Sharpshooter and tdalton, I'm with you!



#245 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:56 AM

Yep, AVTAK.  I also have a soft spot for TMWTGG and DAF, both for being much, much better than their reputation might convey.



#246 Colossus

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:57 AM

Agreed with you folks.



#247 sharpshooter

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:59 AM

Yep, AVTAK.  I also have a soft spot for TMWTGG and DAF, both for being much, much better than their reputation might convey.

I have a soft spot for DAF as well.

 

Freemo did a brilliant piece in November 2011 which I'll post here:

http://debrief.comma...ext-commentary/



#248 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:59 AM

Good to read!  I agree with a lot his points.

 

Interestingly, I also think that DAF´s pre-title-sequence, of course, is a bookend to OHMSS.  Bond avenges Tracy.  Only because he does not mope around the whole following film people tend to negate the fact that OHMSS and DAF do belong together.  Bond remains Bond.  Of course, he is sad and pissed.  But he moves on.  And what is a better story for a follow-up to OHMSS that Bond starts out thinking he has killed Blofeld - only to find out he has to fight him again.  Even doubles of him.  What a nightmare!  But Bond stays cool and accepts how weird the (or his?) world is.  In the end, he seems to have killed Blofeld again.  But it is not given too much weight because Bond knows that Blofeld (or someone like him) will come back.

 

And he does, in FYEO.  And I do not think we have seen Blofeld for the last time.



#249 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:21 AM

No wants to see Bond mope around, but the fact that Tracy is never mentioned - surely she should have been referenced in conversation between Bond Blofeld since one had just gunned down the other's bride, is a bit remiss.

 

I imagine the reason is that the source material is not the true follow up to OHMSS - should've been YOLT, but they'd jumped the gun on that one already.

 

For all the hate that QoS gets, it would've generated a whole lot more hate if Vesper had never been mentioned, despite Bond being out for revenge (as DAF started). I think, with Connery back and a lack of Tracy relevant source material they cut there losses and hoped no one would care.


Edited by Odd Jobbies, 18 February 2014 - 10:22 AM.


#250 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:34 PM

Well, QoS was an official follow-up, kind of a part two of CR - so that connection was clear.

 

DAF, of course, had to affirm that the original fun Bond was back.  True, Bond could have said "For Tracy" in the PTS before he shoved Blofeld into that steaming bowl - but I´m rather glad he didn´t.  And really, the die hard Bond fan knew what Blofeld did to whom, and the casual movie goer did not care (and probably did not see OHMSS).  So they had to give closure to OHMSS while still having a PTS that also worked as a stand-alone Bond vs. Blofeld thing.

 

Tough.



#251 Guy Haines

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:41 PM

I'm playing devil's advocate here, as some of my choices I personally think are great, but:-

 

Over-rated - any Connery Bond film, purely because for decades, in the opinion of many - especially film critics - a Bond film wasn't a proper Bond film unless it had Sean Connery as Bond, and the Connery films were viewed as superior to the rest. Even the ones when he appeared bored in the role.  And I type this as a Connery-Bond fan. But to write off the efforts of the successor Bonds in this way isn't right, in my view.

 

And as a Craig-Bond fan also, it will be interesting to see if, come Bond 24, there's a backlash against SF. As one poster put it above, fickle fans tend to show their love of the new by hating what came before it. We've seen that when a new man takes over as Bond. Remember the welcome Pierce Brosnan got after taking over from the "dour" Timothy Dalton? The same Timothy Dalton who was praised by the critics for his performance in TLD?

 

Speaking of TLD - overrated to underrated - The Living Daylights. When I first saw it in 1987 it was highly regarded by fans and film critics alike, it seemed. When it appears on TV now, its ratings are routinely put at two out of five in the Radio Times film listings, for example, with one critic complaining that Dalton had phoned in his performance.

 

Underrated - OHMSS, still. Diana Rigg gets praise, rightly, but George Lazenby still gets stick for not being Sean Connery. Roger Moore's first two Bond films, particularly TMWTGG. Yes, it's got Britt Ekland making a fool of herself,  J W Pepper making an unnecessary return, and the car corkscrewing over the broken bridge is daft. But it also has Moore-Bond in some uncharacteristically hard edged scenes, the dignified but doomed Andrea Anders (Maud Adams), and best of all, Christopher Lee as Scaramanga.

 

I'd also add that with the exceptions of TSWLM and MR - which are routinely praised as spectacular and fun - most of the Moore Bond films are underrated, imho. True the style of humour wasn't always to my liking as a fan, but they were entertaining and had plenty of Bond style moments.

 

Finally, and getting back to the Dalton era - LTK. Lost in the hype surrounding other 1989 blockbusters, not well promoted, and harmed by the writer's strike of that year, LTK was a daring attempt to do something more hard edged and realistic with Bond.  A prototype, over a decade ahead of its time, for the extremely successful Craig series of Bond films, perhaps?



#252 ChickenStu

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:46 PM

I find Casino Royale to be rather overrated. Don't get me wrong - it's good and all... but a lot of folk seem to make out it's like this big modern classic. I find it slightly above average at best. OK, but nothing special.

 

As for underrated that one is definitely Licence To Kill. Opinions seem to be very mixed across the board but I find it a fantastic thriller. When people praise Daniel Craig's performance and his films for their so called "grittiness" (and well they should) I always think to myself "Guys... they did this with Dalton back in 1989... how come no one was interested then?" They went further too... 



#253 sharpshooter

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:41 AM

most of the Moore Bond films are underrated, imho. True the style of humour wasn't always to my liking as a fan, but they were entertaining and had plenty of Bond style moments.

I totally agree and find it quite annoying. The Moore flicks are dismissed as terrible because they're 'too goofy'. People seem to mark them down because they're not like Craig, Connery or Dalton. That's right, they're not. They're Moore. Bond is a broad church and there's plenty of room for different interpretations. Doesn’t make them terrible. The same old 'Moonraker is awful' routine is predictable and stale. I enjoy the era for the direction they took, and I'm not embarrassed/ashamed like some seem to be.


Edited by sharpshooter, 19 February 2014 - 01:41 AM.


#254 Colossus

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:44 AM

 

most of the Moore Bond films are underrated, imho. True the style of humour wasn't always to my liking as a fan, but they were entertaining and had plenty of Bond style moments.

I totally agree and find it quite annoying. The Moore flicks are dismissed as terrible because they're 'too goofy'. People seem to mark them down because they're not like Craig, Connery or Dalton. That's right, they're not. They're Moore. Bond is a broad church and there's plenty of room for different interpretations. Doesn’t make them terrible. The same old 'Moonraker is awful' routine is predictable and stale. I enjoy the era for the direction they took, and I'm not embarrassed/ashamed like some seem to be.

 

Well said sharpshooter. 



#255 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:07 AM

 

most of the Moore Bond films are underrated, imho. True the style of humour wasn't always to my liking as a fan, but they were entertaining and had plenty of Bond style moments.

I totally agree and find it quite annoying. The Moore flicks are dismissed as terrible because they're 'too goofy'. People seem to mark them down because they're not like Craig, Connery or Dalton. That's right, they're not. They're Moore. Bond is a broad church and there's plenty of room for different interpretations. Doesn’t make them terrible. The same old 'Moonraker is awful' routine is predictable and stale. I enjoy the era for the direction they took, and I'm not embarrassed/ashamed like some seem to be.

 

 

Don´t worry.  It´s all about the zeitgeist. During the Moore era, Moore was at first viewed as not good enough because Connery was the only true Bond (funny because the same critics had complained before how Connery was only sleepwalking through the role since TB), then celebrated (when TSWLM and MR became world wide smashes), then tolerated (FYEO) and finally ridiculed (OP and AVTAK) as too old.

 

Then during the Dalton era, Moore was pointed out as much more fun.  The Brosnan era made some nostalgic again for Moore.  And then Brosnan got what Moore had to endure: ridicule - because the zeitgeist had changed again.  Now everything had to be tough, gritty, dark.  Craig fit in there perfectly and, of course, became the opposite of Moore.

 

Now, the tide turns again, and people clamor for a lighter, more amusing Bond film.

 

The great thing about Bond as you already said, is that it offers a lot of variety.  Everyone can find something to love here.

 

I grew up on Moore - so he will always be one of my favorites.  And let´s face it: what he did with the role nobody else has achieved.  He was a one-of-a-kind Bond.


Edited by SecretAgentFan, 19 February 2014 - 06:08 AM.


#256 Guy Haines

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:52 AM

Regarding the above comments - and I repeat, I'm a firm Connery Bond fan and am pleased at the direction the Craig films have taken also - well, I think it was Sir Roger Moore himself who said that, just as there's more than one way of interpreting Hamlet, so there's room for a different way of playing Bond. If its good enough for Shakespeare.... ;)

 

My grouse was never with Moore's interpretation of 007 - I'm enough of a fan of Moore that I have all his Bonds and every episode of "The Saint" on DVD. It was the way the film makers used it. "Roger's not taking it seriously, so lets throw in a few daft gags", that sort of thing. Far better, I'd have thought, to have his Bond in a really dangerous, hard edged situation and see if a combination of wit, ingenuity and action - and humour - will get him out of it - with a  dry, throwaway comment at the end, by way of relief for the audience, and him. There were moments like that throughout his tenure, but they were overshadowed at times by other scenes where we were invited not so much to laugh with Bond as at him.

 

I'm not sure we'll see that drastic a change of tone post-Daniel Craig, though I may be wrong. I personally didn't detect a complete 180 degree shift when, for example, Pierce Brosnan succeeded Timothy Dalton. Brosnan's Bond was certainly lighter in touch that Dalton's, but he took his cue from the books, or so he said, and retained some of the depth of character Dalton invested in Bond, I think. The Dalton era is routinely written off, but in retrospect I think it has had an impact on the films that succeeded it which wasn't obvious at the time.



#257 Turn

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:42 PM

That's what I like about the series at this point is the variety of films, all of which are available anytime the mood strikes. Funny thing is back in the days before home video when we had to wait for ABC to show a Bond film, I would go back and forth as to who I liked better, Connery or Moore and it would often go based on whose film I saw at that time.

 

The thing about the Moore films I've noticed in recent years is despite the goofy moments and jokes, it makes his hard moments stand out more. One of the underrated confrontation scenes is in OP when Orlov spills the beans and you get a real sense of his underrated serious side, which was submerged by the jokes too often.

 

I find this a lot easier to take than when Brosnan gets dramatic or when Craig and Dalton play up the humor.



#258 ChickenStu

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:09 PM

Nice to see some love for Moonraker in here. Since I'm known among my friends as a bit of a Bond aficionado many of them are surprised when I express my love for this magnificent space adventure. They automatically assume I'm going to hate it. I reserve my vitriol for the ones that deserve it (The Man With The Golden Gun, A View To A Kill, Die Another Day... I'm looking at you three complete bastards!) 

 

James Bond + Outer Space + A Lazer Battle = What's not to love? How could ANYONE hate this? It's just marvelous. Roger Moore is really on top of his game as our man, Michael Lonsdale is huge fun as the camp villain and Richard Kiel just knocks it out of the park as Jaws. Also, I ADORE John Barry's score. ADORE IT. I had a copy of that even when I wasn't into film scores! 

 

Maybe a lot of it is to do with nostalgia. I didn't really get into the movies until Pierce Brosnan was playing our man (I always consider him "My" Bond) but Moonraker I can remember seeing at a very young age. But if that is removed... I still think I'd love it! 



#259 Call Me Hilly

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:43 PM

Overrated: Dr No, Goldfinger, Goldeneye, Skyfall.

Underrated: The Man With The Golden Gun, Moonraker, Octopussy, Never Say Never Again.



#260 glidrose

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:54 PM

Good to read!  I agree with a lot his points.
 
Interestingly, I also think that DAF´s pre-title-sequence, of course, is a bookend to OHMSS.  Bond avenges Tracy.  Only because he does not mope around the whole following film people tend to negate the fact that OHMSS and DAF do belong together.  Bond remains Bond.  Of course, he is sad and pissed.  But he moves on.  And what is a better story for a follow-up to OHMSS that Bond starts out thinking he has killed Blofeld - only to find out he has to fight him again.  Even doubles of him.  What a nightmare!  But Bond stays cool and accepts how weird the (or his?) world is.  In the end, he seems to have killed Blofeld again.  But it is not given too much weight because Bond knows that Blofeld (or someone like him) will come back.


I agree that DAF is an OHMSS sequel. What does M say? "May I remind you, 007, that Blofeld's dead, finished. The least we can expect from you now is a little plain, solid work."

And then this exchange...

"You've been on holiday, I understand. Relaxing, I hope." "Hardly relaxing but... most satisfying."

#261 ChickenStu

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:53 PM

 

Good to read!  I agree with a lot his points.
 
Interestingly, I also think that DAF´s pre-title-sequence, of course, is a bookend to OHMSS.  Bond avenges Tracy.  Only because he does not mope around the whole following film people tend to negate the fact that OHMSS and DAF do belong together.  Bond remains Bond.  Of course, he is sad and pissed.  But he moves on.  And what is a better story for a follow-up to OHMSS that Bond starts out thinking he has killed Blofeld - only to find out he has to fight him again.  Even doubles of him.  What a nightmare!  But Bond stays cool and accepts how weird the (or his?) world is.  In the end, he seems to have killed Blofeld again.  But it is not given too much weight because Bond knows that Blofeld (or someone like him) will come back.


I agree that DAF is an OHMSS sequel. What does M say? "May I remind you, 007, that Blofeld's dead, finished. The least we can expect from you now is a little plain, solid work."

And then this exchange...

"You've been on holiday, I understand. Relaxing, I hope." "Hardly relaxing but... most satisfying."

 

 

A lot of people (I've seen people in here say this aswell) say that Diamonds Are Forever is supposed to continue directly from the end of You Only Live Twice as if On Her Majesty's Secret Service didn't happen - and that continuity thread isn't picked up again until The Spy Who Loved Me. Not that I have any opinion on the matter either way... I don't like these films for their "continuity" such as it is, after all. 



#262 Janus Assassin

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:23 PM

Overrated- FYEO. I decided to watch it the other night, and overall I have never really enjoyed it. I think Conti's score is the absolute worst in the series (yes, worse than Serra's). The plot is kinda meh. Characters are bland. Bibi is annoying as heck.  Luigi looks like Timothy Dalton's Italian twin brother.  The only part I actually enjoy is the attack on the warehouse.

 

Underrated- DAF and MR.


Nice to see some love for Moonraker in here. Since I'm known among my friends as a bit of a Bond aficionado many of them are surprised when I express my love for this magnificent space adventure. They automatically assume I'm going to hate it. I reserve my vitriol for the ones that deserve it (The Man With The Golden Gun, A View To A Kill, Die Another Day... I'm looking at you three complete bastards!) 

 

James Bond + Outer Space + A Lazer Battle = What's not to love? How could ANYONE hate this? It's just marvelous. Roger Moore is really on top of his game as our man, Michael Lonsdale is huge fun as the camp villain and Richard Kiel just knocks it out of the park as Jaws. Also, I ADORE John Barry's score. ADORE IT. I had a copy of that even when I wasn't into film scores! 

 

Maybe a lot of it is to do with nostalgia. I didn't really get into the movies until Pierce Brosnan was playing our man (I always consider him "My" Bond) but Moonraker I can remember seeing at a very young age. But if that is removed... I still think I'd love it! 

 

I think Moonraker is the only Bond film that I can watch over and over and never get tired of it. 



#263 ChickenStu

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:29 PM

I'd love to see Moonraker at the cinema. I hope they find an excuse to re-release it. To see that space battle on a big screen... oh my... that would be special. Looked stunning on Blu Ray!



#264 Binyamin

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:51 AM

Underrated: Dr NO, and Live and Let Die.

Overrated: Goldfinger (Considerably.) The Spy Who Loved Me (Somewhat.) And dare I say, Skyfall  (It's good, but is it a Billion dollars good?)



#265 Orion

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:32 AM

Underrated - Licence to Kill and Quantum Of Solace - two brilliant thrillers that hold up well to rewatching and have tight scripts despite writers strikes.

 

Overrated - Thunderball - It drags in places, I mean really drags., and The Living Daylights simply because those Moore hangovers just sit so uncomfortably in there.



#266 Grard Bond

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:48 AM

Underrated: Never say never again, it's not a great Bondmovie, but not so bad as almost everybody is saying, most of the time it's fun to watch.

Overrated: Skyfall, no doubt! It's well made, but the best? No way! It's overlong, no great actionpieces and for a movie, which takes itself very serious: a very thin, transparent, fetched scheme of the villian and a implausible, borring final in Scotland.



#267 Caesar004

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:39 PM

Overrated? Goldfinger.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the movie to bits, but it is by no means as good as everyone says it is.

 

As for Underrated, i'd have to go with Tomorrow Never Dies.



#268 Iceskater101

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 02:02 AM

Underrated: LICENSE TO KILL. Seriously this movie is amazing. It's definitely one of my favorite movies of all time, I love Timothy Dalton. Too bad this movie was early for its time 

 

Overrated: Moonraker or On Her Majesty's Secret Service.. I really am not a Lazenby fan.



#269 Agent Sidewinder

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 09:51 PM

Underrated: 

 

Moonraker, Moonraker, and Moonraker. It's just an awesome film, despite it's goofy moments (and if you take out the Bondola and the sillier Jaws bits, what you're left with is a surprisingly dark film).

 

Thunderball: Really, I think the "underwater bits are boring" complaints have become a bit much now. 

 

The World is Not Enough: An action-packed film, with a very assured Brosnan performance and a fairly unique villain. Oh, and Robbie Coltrane. Probably could have been better still, admittedly.

 

A View to a Kill: Not a brilliant film by any means, but it's got good action scenes, good characters, and an exciting finale....but no, let's obsess over Rog's crows feet and liver spots, instead, eh? 

 

On Her Majesty's Secret Service: That it still has a decent minority of detractors is enough to make it underrated. Mighty film all round.

 

 

Overrated:

 

Live and Let Die: Many consider this to be Moore's best (even anti-Moore folks seem to have a grudging respect for it) but it always leaves me underwhelmed when I watch it. Not entirely sure why, it just does.

 

Casino Royale: It's still in my top 10, just, but I've never been overly keen on the screen Bond/Vesper romance. Add in a few dodgy lines (especially those involving the words "stripped" and "armour") and it falls down a little too often to go in the "great" pile.

 

For Your Eyes Only: Tries too hard to be the anti-Moonraker at times, and even fails at that in parts (I'm still trying to work out how Bibi is less out-of-place than Dolly. At least the latter didn't speak and had some relevance to the plot). Bill Conti's score is as awful as they say....seriously, the ski chase music sounds like something rejected from Grandstand or Hockey Night in Canada than something from a Bond film.


Edited by Agent Sidewinder, 07 April 2014 - 10:52 PM.


#270 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:43 AM

Underrated: 

Thunderball: Really, I think the "underwater bits are boring" complaints have become a bit much now. 

So you're saying it's virtually unanimous - they suck?

 

I agree ;)