117 replies to this topic

[LadySylvia]

That's classic Connery and Moore: being pussywhipped despite acting tough.

I didn't realize that we were allowed to use the derogatory name for a woman's genitalia on this post.

[ACE]

A number of similar points to mine have been made, but I will submit this defence of Dalton anyway (it has appeared elsewhere on these forums).

A Quiet Revolution:

When The Living Daylights was released, a quiet revolution happened in the world of James Bond. All of a sudden, what opened up in film Bond were possibilities. A Bond film no longer had to be a circus or a pantomime but could attempt to return to its roots: that of the contemporary, Hitchcock-ian, romantic, intelligent, international, mystery, thriller.

A story murky with recent Iran-Contra-gate topicality, this 15th Eon Bond film was a character-led tale of intrigue that was difficult to summarize for the press. Said press were already antagonized by a new leading man who kept an air of mystery about his personal life. In order to fully appreciate what Timothy Dalton brought to 007, one would have to have been a James Bond fan before he was cast. The long and successful reign of Roger Moore was an achievement in itself but the Press had been rather spoilt by 14 years of media-friendly frolics. Dalton's distance did not endear him to them. Their view was, "It's only a Bond film, lighten up."

However, for the first time, the actor playing Bond had read all 14 Fleming Bond books, researched and knew about Fleming (allegedly keeping a copy of John Pearson's Fleming biography on his bedside table) and had a keen sense of what he wanted to achieve: something different yet classic. IMHO, the DNA of Casino Royale exists in The Living Daylights and Daniel Craig continues in the Dalton tradition.

The Dalton Effect:

Upon his announcement as Bond on 6th August 1986, Dalton was a relatively unknown, leading man/working actor. However, this became an important aspect to the thrill of his debut. This lack of knowledge about the actor made his Bond unpredictable. On first viewing, the PTS and the defection in Bratislava were dangerous, involving and atmospheric. When trailing Kara and meeting in her flat, Bond was intense - his careful phrasing making their conversation a chess game of circumstance. When Bond interrogates Pushkin, it is tough and ruthless and even Rubavitch (sic?) is not spared. When Bond is beaten in the Afghan jail, there's no pithy comeback. Just when one thought a one-liner was coming, it didn't. To an audience weaned on 14 years of suaveness, this was a revelation. Out of context now, these grace notes are lost.

In The Living Daylights, few scenes are written to showcase character. Character is revealed through the plot. Dalton presents Bond as a reluctant yet ruthless romantic protagonist. A man of action and energy, living on the edge, Dalton is in the centre, running, jumping, fighting and shooting with conviction. He details his performance with nuggets of information and emotion:

* a) cigarette smoke escaping on hearing Koskov's report of Smiert Spionam: hot air,
* b ) rigid and economical movement in the pipeline scouring pig launch bay,
* c) martial bearing in M's office,
* d) the regrasping of the Walther grip in the Pushkin interrogation,
* e) drinking whisky with Leiter,
* f) his protectiveness of Kara in Afghanistan,
* g) frustration in the Hercules as he tries to communicate with Kara,
* h) frantic grip on the Hercules controls to evade oncoming, landing plane.

Dalton's performance conveys the effort of survival, the pain of being hit, the exhilaration of escape, and the spoils of seduction.

He went back to the humanity of the man from the novels and injected as much of the man as the script would allow. In M's office, a cut scene containing a brief rumination on accidie allowed Dalton to inject some overt world-weariness into his Bond. Dalton had wisely asked for one-liners to be removed and his Bond is a taciturn intelligence operative. Marketed as

[LadySylvia]

Maybe Glen was just afraid to make the jump to a new actor. Maybe he was so used to Moore, who had already made four films before Glen was director, and he doubted his own abilities enough that he didn't want to see a change, but still wanted to stick around himself.

How did John Glen get into all of this? Why would you think that Glen didn't want to make the transition from Moore to Dalton, anyway?

[Stephen Spotswood]

I loused up my syntax. I used the reference to the other agent's death scene as an identifier, and then as part of the point. The actual sequence was Bond frightened by the monkey, then the agent falls, and then Bond looks bothered by his death. So in one short scene he registers fear/startlement, grimness, and then anger as he pursues the killer, all without saying a word.

I call that good acting, but some thought Bond shouldn't show his being startled and then any kind of grief.

[Judo chop]

I loused up my syntax. I used the reference to the other agent's death scene as an identifier, and then as part of the point. The actual sequence was Bond frightened by the monkey, then the agent falls, and then Bond looks bothered by his death. So in one short scene he registers fear/startlement, grimness, and then anger as he pursues the killer, all without saying a word.

I call that good acting, but some thought Bond shouldn't show his being startled and then any kind of grief.

Oh what a great criticism that is.

[Stephen Spotswood]

[quote name='Judo chop' post='787928' date='29 October 2007 - 16:12'][quote name='Stephen Spotswood' post='787917' date='29 October 2007 - 10:29']I loused up my syntax. I used the reference to the other agent's death scene as an identifier, and then as part of the point. The actual sequence was Bond frightened by the monkey, then the agent falls, and then Bond looks bothered by his death. So in one short scene he registers fear/startlement, grimness, and then anger as he pursues the killer, all without saying a word.

I call that good acting, but some thought Bond shouldn't show his being startled and then any kind of grief.[/quote]
Oh what a great criticism that is.

[LadySylvia]

I call that good acting, but some thought Bond shouldn't show his being startled and then any kind of grief.

There were critics who actually made a point about this? Hmmm . . . no wonder I had stopped listening to them, years ago.

[byline]

Fact is, he just has no charisma don't know why. Therefore he comes accross as wooden and staid.

Rather than saying "Fact is" (which implies an irrefutable fact), I would say that this is your opinion. And certainly your opinion is yours and can't be changed by someone else's opinion. But in my opinion, Dalton has loads of charisma, and I like his Bond. I enjoy his energy, underlying menace and moments of warmth with someone he cares about. You don't see the same things I do. Just a different take on what "charisma" means, I think.

[Publius]

"Classic Moore-mentality Glen"? What the hell is that? And what on earth does the above post mean, exactly?

In Bond movies since TSWLM, Moore had been interacting with animals and animals themselves had been doing double-takes. Fine for the comedic Moore, but why do it with Dalton? I think a lot of things like that in TLD show how Glen had no idea how different this new guy really was.

I didn't realize that we were allowed to use the derogatory name for a woman's genitalia on this post.

That's a slang term for being at the mercy of a woman's charm and wile. You'll have to excuse me for not mentally screening my comments to avoid offending the overly sensitive. But if a moderator tells me that term is unacceptable, I'll refrain from using it (although I think it's the first time I've used it here, and I couldn't see myself using it very often anyway).

How did John Glen get into all of this? Why would you think that Glen didn't want to make the transition from Moore to Dalton, anyway?

Glen directed Moore's last three Bond films and Dalton's two. He is a factor. And you're asking me to repeat the very points I made in the post you're quoting. And I admitted it was wild speculation.

[Judo chop]

I think a lot of things like that in TLD show how Glen had no idea how different this new guy really was.

And, it would seem, that EON had no idea that Glen had no idea how different the new guy was. It seems that the cupboard of ideas was bare all the way up the spine into to the cerebral cortex.

And, without that necessary transference of neural activity

[jrdoo7]

so was ohmss. look at that film now is consider a great film maybe the best bond film of all time and arguably the best film of 1969. at the time the film got mixed reviews. look at it now.

Know what? Today I was thinking about what I said earlier in this thread - Dalton needs a wholesale change of tone etc etc - and then I thought - hang on - TLD is much better than LTK!

So today I'm thinking - Dalton should have done a MR style Bond. Totally OTT. And He should have played it utterly straight. I can just picture him saying "what is there to do in Rio if you don't samba" with his wolfish grin and welsh brio.

What do you think? Could it have worked??

No. I don't think it suits Dalton's style.

The truth is, people want a little bit of flair and cinematic touch to the piece. They can not take 100 percent seriousness well, they want an escapist ride with moments of lightness. That is where Craig is more successful to Dalton in that regard.

And yet . . . Dalton is more appreciated as Bond today, than he was 20 years ago. How ironic.

[HH007]

so was ohmss. look at that film now is consider a great film maybe the best bond film of all time and arguably the best film of 1969. at the time the film got mixed reviews. look at it now.

Some things just get better with age. I mean, look at how Citizen Kane is thought of now compared to how it was received when it first came out. Many people lose sight of the idea that it's not how a film does when first released, but how it will be remembered in the years to come. There, that's enough philosophy for one day.

Dalton was a great Bond... if only people in the late 80's knew what they were missing...

[LadySylvia]

In Bond movies since TSWLM, Moore had been interacting with animals and animals themselves had been doing double-takes.

I only recalled this happening in MOONRAKER. That's it.

[Publius]

In Bond movies since TSWLM, Moore had been interacting with animals and animals themselves had been doing double-takes.

I only recalled this happening in MOONRAKER. That's it.

The tiger in Octopussy if you're looking at strictly silly interactions, but I referenced general interactions which go back even before TSWLM (which itself had camels and fish being dropped out of Bond's car and a confused dog if I recall correctly). FYEO had the talking parrot and OP had a host of other animals. And Bond had been startled by pigeons in (I believe) FYEO and OP before it happened in TLD and LTK.

I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting, but to be honest I don't commit these occurrences to memory as well as everything else, although I do remember them being there.

[Judo chop]

In Bond movies since TSWLM, Moore had been interacting with animals and animals themselves had been doing double-takes.

I only recalled this happening in MOONRAKER. That's it.

The tiger in Octopussy if you're looking at strictly silly interactions, but I referenced general interactions which go back even before TSWLM (which itself had camels and fish being dropped out of Bond's car and a confused dog if I recall correctly). FYEO had the talking parrot and OP had a host of other animals. And Bond had been startled by pigeons in (I believe) FYEO and OP before it happened in TLD and LTK.

I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting, but to be honest I don't commit these occurrences to memory as well as everything else, although I do remember them being there.

You're quite right, Pub. You can go even earlier than TWLM and add to the list the baby elephant shower that Sheriff Pepper gets in MWTGG. Granted, that wasn't Bond in the scene, but it was animal comedy nonetheless.

[Stephen Spotswood]

John Glen was a factor in the weakening of the Bond series. The studio were already inclining darker in their casting. Then they chickened out and casted Pierce Brosnan temporarily into the part, before he was called back to his signature role of Remington Steele. Brosnan was being seriously contested for the 007 part by Lewis Collins. Collins polled well to with the public.

http://www.mark-1.co...die/pro_119.jpg

Edited by Stephen Spotswood, 05 November 2007 - 03:49 PM.

[Judo chop]

John Glen was a factor in the weakening of the Bond series.

SS, I think he was the greatest factor. I would give him almost all of the credit for the declining B.O and waning interest, and certainly for the inept handling of Timothy Dalton as James Bond.

The only problem is

[Stephen Spotswood]

What was once said of Terrence Fisher, erroneously in my opinion, was an apt description of John Glen; he was a journeyman director. He may've knew his craft, but had no real style nor zeal.

I still think the producers really blew it when they dropped Peter Hunt as the series director after OHMSS.

[00Twelve]

To be fair, I think TLD was, by far, Glen's best directing. True, it's not terrific, but I'm glad he broke his own mould for a few brief moments.

[byline]

Fact is, he just has no charisma don't know why. Therefore he comes accross as wooden and staid.

Rather than saying "Fact is" (which implies an irrefutable fact), I would say that this is your opinion. And certainly your opinion is yours and can't be changed by someone else's opinion. But in my opinion, Dalton has loads of charisma, and I like his Bond. I enjoy his energy, underlying menace and moments of warmth with someone he cares about. You don't see the same things I do. Just a different take on what "charisma" means, I think.

I DO beg your pardon I shall rephrase;

Fact is (and it is an irrefutable fact) in my opinion TD just has no charisma.

Much better!

[Stephen Spotswood]

Not being into guys the only way I can comment on another guy's charisma is by animal comparison. To me Connery was like some sleek jungle cat, Lazenby a lion, Moore the rooster, Dalton a wolf, and Brosnan a poodle.



Right now I'm inclined to say Craig is a pug.

[Judo chop]

Not being into guys the only way I can comment on another guy's charisma is by animal comparison. To me Connery was like some sleek jungle cat, Lazenby a lion, Moore the rooster, Dalton a wolf, and Brosnan a poodle.



Right now I'm inclined to say Craig is a pug.

This is worthy of a thread of its own.

I completely agree with Dalton as the wolf. Or a cobra.
Brosnan could be a poodle, sure. But only a blue-ribbon winner, and nothing less.
Not so sure about the sleek cat Connery. I

[LadySylvia]

Roger doesn't go half cock unless he's facing Scaramanga or Stromberg. Four shots to the chest. I've never seen Bond use that many bullets to kill someone before or after.

[byline]

yourself!!!

Hmmm . . . I guess the attempt at humor was lost?

[byline]

yourself!!!

Hmmm . . . I guess the attempt at humor was lost?

Not lost at all!!! I laughed out loud!!

hence the ditto:

Oops, sorry about that! I really need a Reading Comprehension 101 refresher . . . especially when it comes to emoticons!

[FlemingBond]

Sometimes i think maybe the public was just ready for a break from Bond at that time. TLD didn't do so bad, although the villains were rather ordinary, but with LTK the budget was too low, and they released it in the U.S. towards the end of a very big summer of movies. Kind of got lost in the shuffle. If there had been a third Dalton movie in 91', with a better budget it might be a different story. Imagine if Moore had only done his first two. TMWTGG did poor numbers too.

[Stephen Spotswood]

[quote name='Judo chop' post='790998' date='8 November 2007 - 17:17'][quote name='Stephen Spotswood' post='790981' date='8 November 2007 - 10:44']Not being into guys the only way I can comment on another guy's charisma is by animal comparison. To me Connery was like some sleek jungle cat, Lazenby a lion, Moore the rooster, Dalton a wolf, and Brosnan a poodle.



Right now I'm inclined to say Craig is a pug.[/quote]
This is worthy of a thread of its own.

I completely agree with Dalton as the wolf. Or a cobra.
Brosnan could be a poodle, sure. But only a blue-ribbon winner, and nothing less.
Not so sure about the sleek cat Connery. I

[The White Tuxedo]

[quote name='Stephen Spotswood' post='791725' date='10 November 2007 - 14:39'][quote name='Judo chop' post='790998' date='8 November 2007 - 17:17'][quote name='Stephen Spotswood' post='790981' date='8 November 2007 - 10:44']Not being into guys the only way I can comment on another guy's charisma is by animal comparison. To me Connery was like some sleek jungle cat, Lazenby a lion, Moore the rooster, Dalton a wolf, and Brosnan a poodle.



Right now I'm inclined to say Craig is a pug.[/quote]
This is worthy of a thread of its own.

I completely agree with Dalton as the wolf. Or a cobra.
Brosnan could be a poodle, sure. But only a blue-ribbon winner, and nothing less.
Not so sure about the sleek cat Connery. I