117 replies to this topic

[LadySylvia]

I quite agree that bon mots were not Dalton's forte. He was at his funniest when he was being . . . well, sarcastic and slightly rude. Like when he snidely used Saunders' pompous remark about MI-6 in order to avoid revealing his escape plans for Koskov or when he expressed his irritation at having to fetch Kara's violin. Two other good examples are from LTK - namely Bond's reaction to Killifer playfully punching his shoulder upon introduction and his irritation at being forced to share a bedroom with Q, because Pam refused to share hers with him.

Edited by LadySylvia, 04 October 2007 - 07:20 PM.

[cap97]

I don't think that the unpopularity of Dalton is so complex. On the contrary, it's very simple. In Roger Moore, Dalton was following a popular, well-known (going back to his TV days in Maverick and The Saint,), well-liked and consequently proven box office success. And Dalton's Bond was going in a radically different direction that Moore took it. Thus, people are going to be resistant. It's human nature not to like change. There's an old saying that you want to be the man to follow the man who follows the legend. Tim Dalton was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that's a shame because he is a quality actor and quality person.

That's exactly why I resisted him. I was a hardcore Moore purist back then. How dare they replace witty, charming and punny with dark and lethal. I was so not into it. I've since lightened up my stance on all that, and have come to embrace every Bond actor to some degree or another, but at the time, that was exactly why Dalton failed for me. I think Brosnan also had the benefit of having a huge gap between his movies and Dalton's (five years I think?), so by the time those kick- "You were expecting someone else?" commercials came around, we were all drooling for a new Bond movie. I certainly was anyway, and welcomed him with open arms. (It also helped his Remington Steele work made him an obvious choice for anyone who ever watched it, including me.)

[Judo chop]

I quite agree that bon mots were not Dalton's forte. He was at his funniest when he was being . . . well, sarcastic and slightly rude. Like when he snidely used Saunders' pompous remark about MI-6 in order to avoid revealing his escape plans for Koskov or when he expressed his irritation at having to fetch Kara's violin. Two other good examples are from LTK - namely Bond's reaction to Killifer playfully punching his shoulder upon introduction and his irritation at being forced to share a bedroom with Q, because Pam refused to share hers with him.

WE AGREE!!! I'll add to that agreeable list his frustration when Kara can't instantly read his instructions to drive up the back of the cargo plane.

Though something feels amiss...

[ChronoBreak]

Interesting topic. I'll keep my comments brief, as a lot of ground has already been traversed much more eloquently elsewhere in the thread.

As a longtime fan of Dalton's Bond, I have to agree with the original theory here - They had the man, an actor who's casting should've been the catalyst for radical change in the series. And yet, due to years of consistent shooting schedules, stylistic choices and complacency on the part of the filmmakers, that change never happened.

I love both films, but I feel that TLD was too much of a compromise between Dalton's new approach and the Moore era, while LTK suffered the consequences - it was perceived as too little too late, when it was probably the sharpest break the series made until DC was cast in Casino Royale. Shame.

On the flip side of the coin, I think the series really needed the break - I don't think a 3rd Dalton film would've mattered in the early '90s. By the time LTK was released, Dalton was the right man at the wrong time. And as much as I like TLD, it definitely squandered the opportunity to really set Dalton apart when it mattered most.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Well, I really like Timmy. Not my best Bond, I loved Pierce (my favourite) and Roger (my second favourite), but to be honest, Dalton more accuarate aproximation to the real thing than Rog.

[byline]

[quote name='Judo chop' post='779124' date='2 October 2007 - 11:28'][quote name='LadySylvia' post='779116' date='2 October 2007 - 10:00'][quote]The truth is, people want a little bit of flair and cinematic touch to the piece. They can not take 100 percent seriousness well, they want an escapist ride with moments of lightness. That is where Craig is more successful to Dalton in that regard.[/quote]
And yet . . . Dalton is more appreciated as Bond today, than he was 20 years ago. How ironic.
[/quote]
He is? What polls have been performed to suggest that Dalton really is more popular now than before? Where are you getting your data?

In my observance, the average movie-goer (the person who

Edited by byline, 21 October 2007 - 05:22 PM.

[Stephen Spotswood]

I always ascribed the "awkwardness" between Dalton and D'Abo to the necessity of the script. Bond was lying to her and pretending to be a close friend of her paramour Gen. Koskov, when actually he was trying to use her in recapturing him. Bond also knew it was Koskov who arranged for him to kill the fake sniper, her.

Meanwhile she didn't know Koskov wanted her dead, which gave him the ability to mislead her as to Bond's intentions.

This led to a cat and mouse game through her, and was a good compromise between Bond's reputation as a womanizer, while sanitizing him for the AID's generation.

[byline]

I always ascribed the "awkwardness" between Dalton and D'Abo to the necessity of the script.

I agree with your interpretation, and upon subsequent viewings that's always been my take on it, as well. Yet there's still something that I can't pinpoint that feels not absolutely assured in the pairing. I know that it's a highly subjective thing, along the same lines as whether Dalton has "charisma" (I happen to think he does). I'm able to reconcile that with the scenario that you describe, but somehow think that her character could have been innocent without being quite so . . . dunno, silly? She was a cellist, after all. Yet I felt her role was often used more for comic relief than anything.

[Judo chop]

I always ascribed the "awkwardness" between Dalton and D'Abo to the necessity of the script.

I agree with your interpretation, and upon subsequent viewings that's always been my take on it, as well. Yet there's still something that I can't pinpoint that feels not absolutely assured in the pairing. I know that it's a highly subjective thing, along the same lines as whether Dalton has "charisma" (I happen to think he does). I'm able to reconcile that with the scenario that you describe, but somehow think that her character could have been innocent without being quite so . . . dunno, silly? She was a cellist, after all. Yet I felt her role was often used more for comic relief than anything.

D

[Stephen Spotswood]

I also forgot to mention that D'Abo's character didn't have the typical "funny" Bond name like Arlotta Fagina.

[byline]

[quote name='Judo chop' post='786148' date='23 October 2007 - 14:20']D

[LadySylvia]

I agree with your interpretation, and upon subsequent viewings that's always been my take on it, as well. Yet there's still something that I can't pinpoint that feels not absolutely assured in the pairing.

Well, I feel differently. I feel that Dalton and D'Abo had a great screen chemistry, together. They seemed very much yin and yang. Whereas Kara was an openly emotional person, he struggled to supress his. Which is why I think that their two characters balanced each other out, very well.

Although Dalton's chemistry with Carey Lowell was pretty good, I don't think it was at the same level as his chemistry with D'Abo. And just to show how good D'Abo and Dalton were together, there have been action movies from the late 1980s until the mid 1990s that have tried to achieve the same emotional angst created by Dalton and D'Abo in the scene featuring Kara's betrayal of Bond in Tangiers and their argument at Kamran Shah's home in Afghanistan. I've seen these re-creations in movies like LICENSE TO KILL, INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE and GOLDENEYE. Yet, as far as I'm concerned, no one has done it better than Dalton and D'Abo.

[RazorBlade]

[quote name='byline' post='786339' date='24 October 2007 - 04:22'][quote name='Judo chop' post='786148' date='23 October 2007 - 14:20']D

[Stephen Spotswood]

I used to buy bubblegum cigars as a kid.

Another point to note is the age disparities between Bond and his lasses. Connery was 37 when he started, but he did age in the part, as did Roger Moore who starred in even more 007 movies. Except for Connery and now Craig, Bond actors always seem to get the part while in their 40's, and their eye-candy du jour were in their 20's. Could it have been more noticible in Living Daylights?

Additionally, she was a passive woman of culture, and TD more passionate and physical.
One thing a local drive-in critic, Joe Bob Briggs, didn't like at the time was that this Bond was capable of being gentle, and to use an archaic term, wooing. Others have complained that when she calls him a horse's , he just laughs. When she insists they go back for her cello he resists than gives in. When an agent falls to his death from a cliff in Gibralter, Bond first looks startled by a monkey, and then upset at the death of a comrade. Bond's even seen serving coffee to Koskov in the safehouse. Later when he squeezes a balloon, you actually see how dangerous he looks. The Dallas Times Herald movie critic complained of Dalton acting too much with his eyes, but The Dallas Morning News critic seemed to regard Dalton as looking regal and Lincolnesque.

Edited by Stephen Spotswood, 25 October 2007 - 04:44 PM.

[00Twelve]

I used to buy bubblegum cigars as a kid.

Another point to note is the age disparities between Bond and his lasses. Connery was 37 when he started, but he did age in the part, as did Roger Moore who starred in even more 007 movies. Except for Connery and now Craig, Bond actors always seem to get the part while in their 40's, and their eye-candy du jour were in their 20's. Could it have been more noticible in Living Daylights?

Additionally, she was a passive woman of culture, and TD more passionate and physical.
One thing a local drive-in critic, Joe Bob Briggs, didn't like at the time was that this Bond was capable of being gentle, and to use an archaic term, wooing. Others have complained that when she calls him a horse's , he just laughs. When she insists they go back for her cello he resists than gives in. When an agent falls to his death from a cliff in Gibralter, Bond first looks startled by a monkey, and then upset at the death of a comrade. Bond's even seen serving coffee to Koskov in the safehouse. Later when he squeezes a balloon, you actually see how dangerous he looks. The Dallas Times Herald movie critic complained of Dalton acting too much with his eyes, but The Dallas Morning News critic seemed to regard Dalton as looking regal and Lincolnesque.

1. 31 when filming Dr. No, actually. Born August 25, 1930. And Laz was either 29 or 30 when filming OHMSS. But other than those, yeah...Moore, Dalton, and Broz were all in their 40s when they started.

2. Genius.

[byline]

The Dallas Times Herald movie critic complained of Dalton acting too much with his eyes,

LOL, since when is that considered a complaint?

[LadySylvia]

Additionally, she was a passive woman of culture, and TD more passionate and physical.

Kara Milovy had never struck me as being a passive woman. If anything, she had quite a temper. And her personality seemed more openly passionate than Dalton's Bond.

[Judo chop]

Indeed. In fact, if it weren

[G.I Jord]

The general audiences were primed with Moore'e style of Bond and not ready for Dalton. Whilst general audiences argueably may have tired of Moore, they weren't neccessarily tired of the style (plus Brosnan was thought to be getting the role). They weren't ready for Dalton.

Argueably, it is only recently, with CR, that audiences have revisited TD's films and appreciate what he did with the role and the films themselves.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Very true; in a word, Dalton's was a Bond before his time.

[Stephen Spotswood]

Additionally, she was a passive woman of culture, and TD more passionate and physical.

Kara Milovy had never struck me as being a passive woman. If anything, she had quite a temper. And her personality seemed more openly passionate than Dalton's Bond.

She seemed to mostly have tiffs. Passion without a possibility of danger is like watching a kitten practicing it's hissing lessons.

[LadySylvia]

She seemed to mostly have tiffs. Passion without a possibility of danger is like watching a kitten practicing it's hissing lessons.

Yet that harmless "kitten" managed to save herself from being captured by two Soviet soldiers during the attack on the airbase, distracted Bond long enough to drug him, knocked out a guard during a prison break and convinced the leader of a local Mujardeen regiment to attack a Soviet airbase.

No wonder a lot of Bond fans don't think much of her. Physically, Kara did not project the image of the usual Bond girl. On the other hand, she was not some action girl in the tradition of Pussy Galore or Anya Amasova. In fact, she reminds me a lot of Tatiana Romanova, but without the air of a sex bomb. But I feel that she had a lot more bite than Tania.

[Judo chop]

The general audiences were primed with Moore'e style of Bond and not ready for Dalton. Whilst general audiences argueably may have tired of Moore, they weren't neccessarily tired of the style (plus Brosnan was thought to be getting the role). They weren't ready for Dalton.

Argueably, it is only recently, with CR, that audiences have revisited TD's films and appreciate what he did with the role and the films themselves.

[G.I Jord]

[quote]QUOTE(G.I Jord @ 25 October 2007 - 20:27)
The general audiences were primed with Moore'e style of Bond and not ready for Dalton. Whilst general audiences argueably may have tired of Moore, they weren't neccessarily tired of the style (plus Brosnan was thought to be getting the role). They weren't ready for Dalton.

Argueably, it is only recently, with CR, that audiences have revisited TD's films and appreciate what he did with the role and the films themselves.

[byline]

[quote name='Judo chop' post='787082' date='26 October 2007 - 12:20']Now, what if the organism changed first? We

Edited by byline, 27 October 2007 - 05:33 AM.

[LadySylvia]

That's a very good point Judo Chop! Whilst I really enjoy TLD and LTK, Dalton could have had better writing and direction.

I had no problem with THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS. Twenty years later, I still believe that it is one of the best Bond movies I have ever seen - even if I could have done without the gadget-filled Aston Martin. On the other hand, LICENSE TO KILL was a bit of a misfire. I believe it was and still is a very good movie. But . . . it felt more like a crime melodrama than a Bond film or even a spy movie. That is my only problem with LTK.

[AgentPB]

I think Dalton did a fine job and he may have been the best acting Bond we will ever see!

[WC]

The public was ready for Craig. It wasn't ready for Dalton (unfortunately).

Yup.

I think Dalton paved the way for the Craig portrayal of Bond. Brosnan was already playing a darker Bond, and his Goldeneye seems written for Dalton. Therefore it was less of a radical change between Brosnan and Craig, although had Bond continued for a few more years along the lines of DAD, then perhaps the Bond franchise could've slipped back into the realms of unrealistic fantasy which would've made the change all that much greater.

[Publius]

Others have complained that when she calls him a horse's , he just laughs.

I thought that was the coolest and most insensitive thing he could do. He obviously thought her insult was childish and stupid, so he laughed. Much better than starting an argument or fight over it, funny though it'd be.

When she insists they go back for her cello he resists than gives in.

That's classic Connery and Moore: being pussywhipped despite acting tough.

When an agent falls to his death from a cliff in Gibralter, Bond first looks startled by a monkey, and then upset at the death of a comrade.

That's classic Moore-mentality Glen v. Dalton.

Bond's even seen serving coffee to Koskov in the safehouse.

How dare he?

Later when he squeezes a balloon, you actually see how dangerous he looks.

I don't know who these critics are, Stephen, but please slap them in the face if you ever see one.

[LadySylvia]

When an agent falls to his death from a cliff in Gibralter, Bond first looks startled by a monkey, and then upset at the death of a comrade.

That's classic Moore-mentality Glen v. Dalton.



"Classic Moore-mentality Glen"? What the hell is that? And what on earth does the above post mean, exactly?