58 replies to this topic

[Trident]

Honestly, I've been calling for Bond to start carrying the ASP in films for years now and have little reason to cease! It'd be perfect for him, and while it's not as iconic as his two Walthers (which I don't want to abolish entirely, but I've always argued the P99 shouldn't be his constant-carry weapon) it's a stellar handgun who finally needs to see some screen time.

Yes, the ASP would certainly be a good choice. But as it's out of production I don't see that happen. After all, even the coice of handgun is a question of product placement and merchandise. EON Bond will only wear what the modern market can provide. I for one would already be happy if they stopped Bond drawing ridiculously large full-size service autos from shoulder holsters under ridiculously well and lean cut expensive suits that clearly didn't cover those guns till the scene was shot. This is just an 'Inspector Gadget'-thing and really ludicrous and annoying. It's either well cut suits and slim line gun or full size indoor FLAK and Jack-Bauer's-Secret™ baggy fashion. Only very few people can have both.

As much as I would probably be screaming with enthusiasm if they ever showed Bond with an ASP, since EON seems fixated on Walther, they should at least have him use the PPS instead of the gargantuan P99. While I'm only so-so on the trigger feel of the PPS, I will grant that it is a very slim pistol and certainly capable of being concealed nicely.

Like almost everything else in movies today, Bond's guns are certainly a subject to a contract with Walther in the same way his cars are contracted. If that contract expires, all bets are off again but Walther has of course the same benefit of the classic heritage Aston Martin has. I doubt very much that either EON or Walther will ever dare to break that lucrative agreement.

[bonds_walther]

PPK please. I've always prefered that gun.

[Shrublands]

Terrific.
I pick up a .38 S&W but this teaser is superb with this holster for the .44 magnum.

Never mind a shoulder holster, Rog looks as if he needs a bra in that photo.

Edited by Shrublands, 15 February 2008 - 12:10 PM.

[frankwalker]

Fixed.

[SecretAgent007]

I carry concealed every day and have owned a holster company for more than 10 years. 100% of our business is for those that carry concealed, whether law enforcement or those with CCW (concealed weapon permits). Over 95% of the holsters we make are for semi-autos. About 70% of those holsters are for guns the size of a P-99, considered a compact pistol. (Most compact pistols have a barrel length of 4" and sub-compacts have a bbl length of around 3", while full size pistols are 4.5" to 5")

I deal with most of the Fed agencies (FBI, DEA, Homeland...) and I very rarely have a request for shoulder holsters from anyone that carry's for a living. IWB (inside the waist) and OWB (outside the waist) are the norm. It is virtually impossible to conceal a compact auto in a shoulder rig while wearing a suit. For an example take a look at the scene in TWINE where Bond comes out of the cave. It is one of the few scenes where Broz is actually wearing a shoulder holster with the P-99 under his suit jacket and it definitely "prints" through the jacket.

With a small gun like the PPK it is much easier to wear a shoulder rig. But a 7.62 and/or .380 are less than ideal calibers. The bullet mass is very low, and exotic ammo such as Mag-Safe's and Glasers have terrible penetration through clothing in small calibers. Add a suppressor and subsonic ammunition and the situation is amplified.

So, if Bond is to wear a shoulder rig (which seems to be the consensus here) and he is to conceal it under a suit, what should he carry? Well, he needs a small gun, in a caliber that has good muzzle energy and bullet mass, which is readily available. Also, it would benefit him to carry ammo that is subsonic, so that when a suppressor is utilized, he need not change ammo. This really only leaves him with a gun that shoots 45acp. Two come to mind off the top of my head. The Kahr P-45 and a 1911 variant with a 3" or 3.5"bbl length. The Kahr has a simpler operating system and is more compact, so I would go with it.

As for the ASP, I've owned about 12 of them and while they are neat guns, I would not trust my life on one. The guttersnipe sight doesn't work in low light. They did offer a guttersnipe with 2 tritium vials at the rear and a tritium bar at the front, but those vials are past their shelf life and no one offers tritium bars of that size any more to replace the original. Also, the hooked trigger guard tends to get in the way while re-holstering and snags on clothing in general. Plus, the shooting grip one takes on a gun has evolved to where the hook is pointless. There are 2 other problems, which are quite significant. The first is that the design of the S&W 39 is such that the shelf of the barrel slams down onto the frame so hard that it peens the aluminum. If not maintained this will lock the gun up to where it will not fire. The second is that when the 39 was made into an ASP, they never replaced the anodizing on the frame, before the Teflon coating was applied. Aluminum frame strength is spec'd to include hard anodizing on the surface of the aluminum. It adds a lot of strength to the frame. I've seen lots of ASP's that developed cracks in the frame. I've also seen one's that have had catastrophic failure, meaning a frame rail broke off, or the trigger guard broke off. I suggest only collecting the ASP and not carrying one. :-)

Almost forgot me mention

[OO4]

I'd be all for Bond carrying a .45. But I have a feeling the producers and many fans would find it "too American" for some reason regardless of practical concerns.
On a side note, I've never met anyone who used a shoulder holster of any make and model without eventually switching to something else out of comfort.

[Daddy Bond]

[quote name='SecretAgent007' post='841317' date='21 February 2008 - 15:52']I carry concealed every day and have owned a holster company for more than 10 years. 100% of our business is for those that carry concealed, whether law enforcement or those with CCW (concealed weapon permits). Over 95% of the holsters we make are for semi-autos. About 70% of those holsters are for guns the size of a P-99, considered a compact pistol. (Most compact pistols have a barrel length of 4" and sub-compacts have a bbl length of around 3", while full size pistols are 4.5" to 5")

I deal with most of the Fed agencies (FBI, DEA, Homeland...) and I very rarely have a request for shoulder holsters from anyone that carry's for a living. IWB (inside the waist) and OWB (outside the waist) are the norm. It is virtually impossible to conceal a compact auto in a shoulder rig while wearing a suit. For an example take a look at the scene in TWINE where Bond comes out of the cave. It is one of the few scenes where Broz is actually wearing a shoulder holster with the P-99 under his suit jacket and it definitely "prints" through the jacket.

With a small gun like the PPK it is much easier to wear a shoulder rig. But a 7.62 and/or .380 are less than ideal calibers. The bullet mass is very low, and exotic ammo such as Mag-Safe's and Glasers have terrible penetration through clothing in small calibers. Add a suppressor and subsonic ammunition and the situation is amplified.

So, if Bond is to wear a shoulder rig (which seems to be the consensus here) and he is to conceal it under a suit, what should he carry? Well, he needs a small gun, in a caliber that has good muzzle energy and bullet mass, which is readily available. Also, it would benefit him to carry ammo that is subsonic, so that when a suppressor is utilized, he need not change ammo. This really only leaves him with a gun that shoots 45acp. Two come to mind off the top of my head. The Kahr P-45 and a 1911 variant with a 3" or 3.5"bbl length. The Kahr has a simpler operating system and is more compact, so I would go with it.

As for the ASP, I've owned about 12 of them and while they are neat guns, I would not trust my life on one. The guttersnipe sight doesn't work in low light. They did offer a guttersnipe with 2 tritium vials at the rear and a tritium bar at the front, but those vials are past their shelf life and no one offers tritium bars of that size any more to replace the original. Also, the hooked trigger guard tends to get in the way while re-holstering and snags on clothing in general. Plus, the shooting grip one takes on a gun has evolved to where the hook is pointless. There are 2 other problems, which are quite significant. The first is that the design of the S&W 39 is such that the shelf of the barrel slams down onto the frame so hard that it peens the aluminum. If not maintained this will lock the gun up to where it will not fire. The second is that when the 39 was made into an ASP, they never replaced the anodizing on the frame, before the Teflon coating was applied. Aluminum frame strength is spec'd to include hard anodizing on the surface of the aluminum. It adds a lot of strength to the frame. I've seen lots of ASP's that developed cracks in the frame. I've also seen one's that have had catastrophic failure, meaning a frame rail broke off, or the trigger guard broke off. I suggest only collecting the ASP and not carrying one. :-)

Almost forgot me mention

[darkpath]

So, if Bond is to wear a shoulder rig (which seems to be the consensus here) and he is to conceal it under a suit, what should he carry? Well, he needs a small gun, in a caliber that has good muzzle energy and bullet mass, which is readily available. Also, it would benefit him to carry ammo that is subsonic, so that when a suppressor is utilized, he need not change ammo. This really only leaves him with a gun that shoots 45acp. Two come to mind off the top of my head. The Kahr P-45 and a 1911 variant with a 3" or 3.5"bbl length. The Kahr has a simpler operating system and is more compact, so I would go with it.

Based solely on Bond's need for a pistol that fires subsonic ammunition (for when he needs to fit a suppressor) it seems like he needs something along the lines of a compact version of the HK Mk 23 Mod 0, though I am hard pressed to think of any pistol that well and truly fits the bill. Out of consideration for the long-standing relationship EON has had with Walther, I checked that the PPS is not available in .45ACP, which pretty much rules it out. What would you say to the Heckler & Koch 45C?


From HK-USA's site:

THE HECKLER & KOCH HK45 COMPACT - DISTINGUISHED
The HK45C was developed to meet the needs of the most distinguished, elite
U.S. military operators.

The HK45C is available in any one of the 10, HK specific variants, including
the double-action and single-action Law Enforcement Modification known as
the LEM. Left, right and ambidextrous control levers provide safety and/or
de-cocking functions and can be fitted to the pistol by simply changing
parts.

A unique, internal mechanical recoil reduction system reduces the recoil
forces imparted to the weapon and shooter by as much as 30%, improving
shooter control during rapid firing.

The HK45C combines the accuracy, modularity, reliability and extended
service life that you have come to expect from a company that prides itself
for their

[SecretAgent007]

The USP 45 Compact is big, at least as large as the Walther and thicker. I stand by my selection of the Kahr P-45. All that is needed is a threaded barrel for under $200.00. It takes less than 30 seconds to swap barrels if you wanted to do so.

[levitator]

For James Bond not to use a Walther pistol is for me kind of committing sacrilege. It's part of tradition like the Gunbarrel, the Theme, Wodka-Martini... They shouldn't replace the weapon to often.

There are definetely equally good or better pistols, for example the H&K P2000 (big fan of it). It's kind of "philosophy" for Bond to use a Walther. He's not a standard-issue action-hero using maybe a god-damned Beretta 92F... And he's an English man... Beretta ? No, no !

The P99 is a good choice. Nobody's using a PPK anymore for duty. P99 compact as backup weapon is a good choice. But not in a shoulder holster (grip is to short for proper drawing). Maybe an PPS with extended magazin.

Technically the P99 up to date and with a good leather shoulder holster good for concealed carrying as well. No thick cordura. Maybe upside down like in LTK. Drawing looks quite cool

[sidspappy]

Whew, been ages since I posted here. Love guns, though, even if I haven't shot in a few years.

Anyway, looking at it from the producer's standpoint, this is all product placement, as was mentioned. Omega, Aston-Martin, and yes, Walther all would seem to be there mainly because some company paid large sums to finance their share of the movie. Since reality has little hold on the Bond universe, there will continue to be P99 in Bond's future (if I had to guess). Since TND, this has BECOME the Bond gun for the modern audiences, most of whom care little for the heritage of the PPK (nor Rolex).

The only change I could see is whether they want Bond to have more of a serious "player" look to him and give him the same IWB holster from CR. Seems the production has SOME knowledge of how real guns are carried, so they may yet give Craig a serious IWB holster to carry his P99.

And seriously, in today's post-Lethal Weapon/Die Hard cinema, a little gun like the PPK or any of today's true compacts, would not cut it. To the average moviegoer, little gun = little weenie. Big guns are here to stay...

[SecretAgent007]

(grip is to short for proper drawing).

huh? The grip of the 99C will easily allow a full grip with the average size hand. And even if your pinkie hangs off the bottom, it adds little to a shooting grip anyway. Some of the most popular carry guns have abbreviated grips.

With IWB carry the grip size is the most important gun-size issue to consider. The grip is what sticks out of the trousers, and the shorter it is, the easier it is to conceal. With OWB carry, the slide length is of more importance, since your cover garment can be shorter with a shorter bbl. firearm. Same goes for a shoulder rig. Most are horizontal carry, so if the slide is fairly long, the muzzle end will print.

I would like to see them stay with IWB carry, but lose the $34.00 Galco clip holster. Seriously, no one that has a clue what they are doing would carry their handgun in that thing. It's the type of holster that gun shops stock to meet a price point and make some extra money when selling a gun to an uneducated customer.

[Leon]

The IWB holster is a nice touch both in terms of professional concealed carry and a wink to the novels, however the shoulder holster look IS an important and iconic image for James Bond.

You have to remember that James Bond is not a realistic spy and never has been. Even Ian Fleming made-up the Berns-Martin IWB holster just to give it the cool sounding name.

Bond is more about style than using all the exact realistic things and if he operated like a realistic agent the films would be extremely different and generally rather dull and shocking.

Bond's style from the films has always been the shoulder holster, but that doesn't at all mean an IWB can't ever be used as well. Bond had more than one gun in the books too, in Casino Royale he had the Beretta .25 as well as a .38 police positive revolver. In Dr No he was given the Walther PPK and the Smith & Wesson Centenial Airweight revolver for big jobs. In Goldfinger he carried a Colt .45 in his hidden gun compartment in the Aston Martin. Etc.

Sometimes he used a shoulder rig, sometimes an IWB, sometimes he had his gun hidden in his car or in a bible and sometimes he simply tucked it into his waistband.

Edited by Leon, 07 March 2008 - 09:57 PM.

[Mark_Hazard]

You have to remember that James Bond is not a realistic spy and never has been. Even Ian Fleming made-up the Berns-Martin IWB holster just to give it the cool sounding name.

Fleming didn't make up the Berns-Martin, just erred in its useage - he had 007 use it with an automatic pistol, rather than a revolver (for which it was designed). Can't remember if Fleming used it as an IWB, but as far as I remember, the Berns-Martin triple-draw is a shoulder holster.

[Four Aces]

You mean this?

[SecretAgent007]

Yes, the Berns-Martin Triple Draw was a real holster. It could be worn with a shoulder harness with the gun inverted, on the belt, or in a cross-draw configuration. Fleming goofed on the details. Geoffrey Boothroyd suggested to Fleming, through correspondence, that Bond either carry the PPK or a S&W revolver. The Berns-Martin was to accompany the revolver, not the PPK. Berns-Martin sold the design of the Triple Draw to Bianchi and it was renamed the No. 9. The holster was made by Bianchi for 15+ years. However, they introduced some design changes (detrimental to the holsters function) as well as offering the holster for larger frame revolvers, for which this design did not work very well. They discontinued the holster within the last 10 years.

Below is a shot of what the rig looks like.

Edited by SecretAgent007, 08 March 2008 - 02:19 AM.

[Leon]

You have to remember that James Bond is not a realistic spy and never has been. Even Ian Fleming made-up the Berns-Martin IWB holster just to give it the cool sounding name.

Fleming didn't make up the Berns-Martin, just erred in its useage - he had 007 use it with an automatic pistol, rather than a revolver (for which it was designed). Can't remember if Fleming used it as an IWB, but as far as I remember, the Berns-Martin triple-draw is a shoulder holster.

That's what I meant, I am sure Fleming knew what kind of holster it was. He just liked those cool sounding double barreled names.

I don't think he made a mistake, he just made-up his own version of it for Bond.

[darkpath]

Since the original Berns Martin triple draw is long out of production, even if we allow that it could be modified to work with a self-loader by MI6's Q-branch, which I am willing to concede for the purposes of discussion, what shoulder holster would we like to see in the films? Personally, I'm a fan of Ken Null's work; but I realise that EON will make their choices with product placement Pounds Sterling in mind.

[SecretAgent007]

Darkpath, it would be just about impossible to make a Berns-Martin work for an auto. The revolver is held in place with a clam-shell spring. A friend of mine, Rusty Sherrick, is making exact replica's of the Berns-Martin. If anyone wants to buy one, just google his name.

Ken's holster that is similar (model SMZ) is made for auto's as well as revolvers. The holster was originally made by Seventrees Holster Company. Owned by Paris Theodore, who developed the ASP. There is a little J hook finger on the holster that goes inside the trigger guard and snaps to the holster body. You simply grab the grip and twist up. The gun is then released. The problem with inverted should holsters is that the gun is meant to sit, not under your arm, but almost over your pectoral muscle. The weight of the gun, however tends to drag the holster under your arm pit and makes it very difficult to draw the weapon.

Another type is the vertical shoulder holster. These do not conceal the gun all that well, unless it is very small like a PPK. The shoulder rig that Connery wore was a vertical shoulder holster. The one he wore was made by the films tailor, Anthony Sinclair.

So you are left with the horizontal shoulder holster. This is the most popular style sold today. It usually has a magazine pouch under the opposite side from the gun. Pierce wears one of these in TWINE and DAD.

They will most likely use a Galco. The prop house they deal with carries Galco equipment and they have been using Galco since TLD. I would (this goes without saying) prefer them to use one of ours

Here is a pic of a horizontal rig we make.


and what a horizontal rig looks like when worn.

Edited by SecretAgent007, 09 March 2008 - 12:16 AM.

[Leon]

You'd need to make one without the magazine pouches though. For full concealability and comfort it would need a soft elasticated strap on the opposite side.

Do it, and punt it to EON

[SecretAgent007]

Like this?



Actually the 4 point harness is/are more comfortable than those with the elastic. They also do not bind around the neck and make your shirt collar pucker up. The addition of the mag pouch adds nothing to the concealability of the rig. If you can hide the gun, the mags are nothing. And, they help balance/stabilize the rig. Also, a 4 point harness does not cause back fatigue when worn for extended periods of time, unlike the Y harness pictured above.

We make a completely lined version of the one with the 4 point harness (Y harness pictured above is lined as well), and also from exotics. If I were to make one for Bond, I would suggest black Shell Cordovan. It would run $910.00 and they would need several, but they look really sharp.

Edited by SecretAgent007, 09 March 2008 - 12:40 AM.

[Leon]

Interesting, I'd now very much like you to make the holster for the Bond films.

[SecretAgent007]

Well, that would be great, but we are backed up 20+ weeks at present. I tried to make it happen for TND. I talked to Graham Rye about it when I was in England for Cubby's memorial and he gave me contact information for one of the departments, but between traveling and getting product out the door, I didn't follow up on it as well as I should have.

[Leon]

That's a shame. What is your view on the Galco rig used in the Brosnan films compared with what you would make for Bond yourself?

[Mr. Blofeld]

Well, that would be great, but we are backed up 20+ weeks at present. I tried to make it happen for TND. I talked to Graham Rye about it when I was in England for Cubby's memorial and he gave me contact information for one of the departments, but between traveling and getting product out the door, I didn't follow up on it as well as I should have.

Well, if your cards play out right, I'm sure you can get the job for Bond 23.

[SecretAgent007]

I need to make a correction about Eon using Galco since TLD. Apparently the IWB holster in CR is a Vega

And no, I'm not familiar with them. But as you can see from the pic, it is a very low end holster They sell for 10 Euro's.

Edited by SecretAgent007, 11 March 2008 - 10:08 PM.

[darkpath]

I need to make a correction about Eon using Galco since TLD. Apparently the IWB holster in CR is a Vega

And no, I'm not familiar with them. But as you can see from the pic, it is a very low end holster They sell for 10 Euro's.

Ick!!! It reminds of the first holster I was stupid enough to buy, some 17+ years ago (it was an error I came to recognise fairly quickly when I discovered that re-holstering was a 2 hand operation). I was young and far too foolish. Hopefully, I've gotten smarter and wiser.

[Terry]

It's good to see Bond using a Walther PPK again as is shown at the USA Today website. I own one and agree that it is an important part of the character, as much as Aston Martin. If he doesn't carry the PPK for permanent use in upcoming movies, I would vote for the Walther PPS. I was able to handle one at the local sportsman shop and was impressed. It is quite thin and so more suitable for a shoulder holster and undercover carry for 007. It measures 6.3" long, 4.4" in height while the P99 measures 7.1" long and is 5.3" in height. Again, the slim design of the PPS makes it very nice for concealment.

[SecretAgent007]

I just picked up a PPS today. Took it out and shot 400 rounds through it without any problems. I was pretty surprised at the recoil, or rather the lack of it. For a gun with this short of a barrel and lack of weight it was quite pleasing to shoot. Muzzle flip was minimal as well as felt recoil. All in all I'm pleased. The only 2 things I didn't like are that the brass flies all over the place and the mag release takes a little work to get onto. I'd much rather see Bond carry this than the PPK. The 40 caliber should be out soon.