65 replies to this topic

[Zorin Industries]

Could someone fill me in as to WHY Bond shot and killed Electra King??? I know that she was guilty of a lot of treachery and deception (and yes, responsible for what she did), but the killing seemed rather unnecessary (and honestly, she did appear to be acting irrationally - based upon her kidnapper's previous influence).

Couldn't Bond have just buster her radio and cracked her across the jaw knocking her out?

BOND had got wind that ELEKTRA had written the script, that's why...

God, I would have shot her if she was having that hissy fight of bad acting and even worse writing right infront of me like that....!

[Daddy Bond]

Why? Because she was a 100% villian. The only reason you are asking the question is because she was a beautiful woman.

No, not because she is a beautiful woman, but because the death seemed unnecessary. I full respect Bond's decision when he has to kill, but not when he does so just 'cuz.

It seems like she is an exceptionally tragic figure here, because it seems that her wickedness was being acted out because of the trauma she incurred while being held by Renard in the initial kidnapping. Yes, she eventually fell in with him, but I can't help but see her as a character that became this way through situations thrust upon her.

She seemed like she needed jail and therapy and not death.

Does anyone else see it this way?

[tambourineman]

She seemed like she needed jail and therapy and not death.

Does anyone else see it this way?

Nope. You could say the same thing about any bond villain. The only difference is she was a hot female. Bond's killing of Stromberg for example was much more callous. At least he gave Elektra a chance. How many people would have been killed if her plan worked? Millions? Anyway getting rid of that scene would have stolen Brosnan one of his few great moments.

[Jim]

"Bad girl, go to gaol" wouldn't be much of an ending would it? Particularly given that the subsequent fight in the sub is "a bit" dull.

Keeping her in captivity also seemed to be the root of the problems (if I can be bothered to remember what passed for character in this sorry mess) so in making sure she didn't become a captive again, shooting her face off was arguably an act of exceptional kindness.

[sharpshooter]

Why did Bond shoot Elektra? Because the script said so.

Apart from that, Bond was at the end of his tether patience wise with her, after she had been a pain in the neck to him.

[LadySylvia]

Why did Bond shoot Elekra King? Hmmm . . . why not? She was becoming irritating.

[erniecureo]

I just saw this on Spike last night--and my only question is why he didn't shoot her sooner...before she could yell "Dive!" into the radio...

[MkB]

Actually, shooting her seems to me not only "illegal", but damn stupid.
I mean, the purpose of threatening was to make her call back Renard. She doesn't want to call him back, OK, no problem.
If he were really cool-blooded, he would simply have taken back the radio, and told Renard he had Elektra at gunpoint, and was going to shoot her if he didn't surrender : mad as he was about the girl, Bond had a chance to end the case without a drop of blood. Having shot her, he had no more leverage on Renard.

Bond had a chance to end the case without a drop of blood

And I should add : without ruining an expensive linen suit by diving in the Bosphorus chasing an atomic submarine !

[David_M]

It's a stupid move on his part, and hardly heroic, cool or even "Flemingesque" (I can't see Fleming's Bond doing it).

On the other hand, I can't really blame him. By this point in the movie, I'm usually ready to shoot somebody myself.

[sharpshooter]

I adore the scene. One of the highlights in the Brosnan era. I remember it being a talking point, I remember saying that she didnt die in a fancy way, he just shot her!

[MkB]

I adore the scene. One of the highlights in the Brosnan era. I remember it being a talking point, I remember saying that she didnt die in a fancy way, he just shot her!

I agree with you, oddly enough, despite my criticizing, but I think that, unfortunately they spoiled the scene by giving Bond a bad reason for shooting her. It would have been more intense if he really **had** to shoot her, for a good, intelligent reason, and not on a stupid impulse of anger.

[Daddy Bond]

Actually, shooting her seems to me not only "illegal", but damn stupid.
I mean, the purpose of threatening was to make her call back Renard. She doesn't want to call him back, OK, no problem.
If he were really cool-blooded, he would simply have taken back the radio, and told Renard he had Elektra at gunpoint, and was going to shoot her if he didn't surrender : mad as he was about the girl, Bond had a chance to end the case without a drop of blood. Having shot her, he had no more leverage on Renard.

Bond had a chance to end the case without a drop of blood

And I should add : without ruining an expensive linen suit by diving in the Bosphorus chasing an atomic submarine !

Actually, your version sounds more dramatic, would have added tension, and, then, if he had to shoot her, would have clearly been to save millions of lives - plus this would have REALLY hacked off Renard - even more anyway.

[00Twelve]

A script/plot roblem in TWINE? Naw....

[plankattack]

A script/plot roblem in TWINE? Naw....

Why is it all Elektra King threads end up bashing TWINE.....

Really, I'll be forced to defend the movie yet again!!!

[00Twelve]

Now Plank, you know I'm not the type to do that...but sometimes, I can't help to get a little jab in. But seriously, MkB's idea seems to make a lot more sense than what we got. I think the "drama" of the moment had all the subtlety and nuance of a belched alphabet.

[MkB]

Actually, your version sounds more dramatic, would have added tension, and, then, if he had to shoot her, would have clearly been to save millions of lives - plus this would have REALLY hacked off Renard - even more anyway.

Well, maybe, but it would have been a little "clich

[Daddy Bond]

[quote name='MkB' post='766578' date='27 August 2007 - 11:35'][quote name='Daddy Bond' post='766569' date='27 August 2007 - 17:55']Actually, your version sounds more dramatic, would have added tension, and, then, if he had to shoot her, would have clearly been to save millions of lives - plus this would have REALLY hacked off Renard - even more anyway.[/quote]

Well, maybe, but it would have been a little "clich

[plankattack]

12 and MK, you both make great points. Electra (like TWINE unfortunately) is a real missed opportunity. In psychological drama there was a great deal of potential for a dramatic death (Bond talking her/tricking her into suicide perhaps?) than what we eventually got.

But I do give the film kudos for showing Bond in such cold-blooded light (something which the series has avoided for much of its existence). He is an assasin after all. If nothing else, Bond in TWINE hearkens back to Bond in TSWLM - Stromberg's death is almost out-of-context with what is essentially a fantasy-caper.

Good villain deaths is something that has plagued the series of late (IMHO both Graves and Carver are both unclimatic and unimaginative).

[Daddy Bond]

12 and MK, you both make great points. Electra (like TWINE unfortunately) is a real missed opportunity. In psychological drama there was a great deal of potential for a dramatic death (Bond talking her/tricking her into suicide perhaps?) than what we eventually got.

But I do give the film kudos for showing Bond in such cold-blooded light (something which the series has avoided for much of its existence). He is an assasin after all. If nothing else, Bond in TWINE hearkens back to Bond in TSWLM - Stromberg's death is almost out-of-context with what is essentially a fantasy-caper.

Good villain deaths is something that has plagued the series of late (IMHO both Graves and Carver are both unclimatic and unimaginative).

Agreed with that last point. A bit like the deaths in the PTS of DAF (really irritating) IMO.

[MkB]

12 and MK, you both make great points. Electra (like TWINE unfortunately) is a real missed opportunity. In psychological drama there was a great deal of potential for a dramatic death (Bond talking her/tricking her into suicide perhaps?) than what we eventually got.

Or her commiting suicide using Bond as a lethal instrument ? Something like that :
- Bond tells Renard to come back, or he'll shoot Elektra ; she protests, but Renard agrees to surrender.
- Then Elektra : "Well, and so what ? I'll end up in jail for the rest of my life ? No way James, there's no point in living if you can't feel alive !" (note of the screen-re-writer : "wink, wink" ;-)
- M comes in, Elektra looks Bond in the eyes, and makes a move to kill M with whatever gun
- Bond has no choice but killing her
- he is in shock, in a way, he failed to protect her (in this particular film, he has a tendancy to try to protect indefensible women, like to sniper woman when in the balloon)
- the radio was still connected with Renard, he heard everything, and is slightly mad at Bond and the rest of the world (even if it's not enough)
- then, Bond has a really good reason to dive from the upper level of the Maiden Tower, ruin his linen suit and start chasing an atomic submarine without even a mask and a snorkel (it's so Bond of him ;-)

But I do give the film kudos for showing Bond in such cold-blooded light (something which the series has avoided for much of its existence). He is an assasin after all. If nothing else, Bond in TWINE hearkens back to Bond in TSWLM - Stromberg's death is almost out-of-context with what is essentially a fantasy-caper.

Sure, so do I ! Don't miss my point : I really love TWINE ! My criticism is one of a disappointed lover :-) It was also nice to have this strong figure of a woman in the film, like you usually have in the books, and good to have a Villainess instead of (only) a Villain.

Good villain deaths is something that has plagued the series of late (IMHO both Graves and Carver are both unclimatic and unimaginative).

I can't disagree with it... But CR had a wonderful villain death, if you assume that Vesper was the Villain. This nightmarish scene in the sinking lift, Bond ready to shoot her, and suddenly making up his mind and trying to save her when he understand she is committing suicide... This was really well done (much more climatic than Vesper's death in the book), very well written, directed and played.

Edited by MkB, 27 August 2007 - 06:21 PM.

[Daddy Bond]

12 and MK, you both make great points. Electra (like TWINE unfortunately) is a real missed opportunity. In psychological drama there was a great deal of potential for a dramatic death (Bond talking her/tricking her into suicide perhaps?) than what we eventually got.

Or her commiting suicide using Bond as a lethal instrument ? Something like that :
- Bond tells Renard to come back, or he'll shoot Elektra ; she protests, but Renard agrees to surrender.
- Then Elektra : "Well, and so what ? I'll end up in jail for the rest of my life ? No way James, there's no point in living if you can't feel alive !" (note of the screen-re-writer : "wink, wink" ;-)
- M comes in, Elektra looks Bond in the eyes, and makes a move to kill M with whatever gun
- Bond has no choice but killing her
- he is in shock, in a way, he failed to protect her (in this particular film, he has a tendancy to try to protect indefensible women, like to sniper woman when in the balloon)
- the radio was still connected with Renard, he heard everything, and is slightly mad at Bond and the rest of the world (even if it's not enough)
- then, Bond has a really good reason to dive from the upper level of the Maiden Tower, ruin his linen suit and start chasing an atomic submarine without even a mask and a snorkel (it's so Bond of him ;-)

But I do give the film kudos for showing Bond in such cold-blooded light (something which the series has avoided for much of its existence). He is an assasin after all. If nothing else, Bond in TWINE hearkens back to Bond in TSWLM - Stromberg's death is almost out-of-context with what is essentially a fantasy-caper.

Sure, so do I ! Don't miss my point : I really love TWINE ! My criticism is one of a disappointed lover :-) It was also nice to have this strong figure of a woman in the film, like you usually have in the books, and good to have a Villainess instead of (only) a Villain.

Good villain deaths is something that has plagued the series of late (IMHO both Graves and Carver are both unclimatic and unimaginative).

I can't disagree with it... But CR had a wonderful villain death, if you assume that Vesper was the Villain. This nightmarish scene in the sinking lift, Bond ready to shoot her, and suddenly making up his mind and trying to save her when he understand she is committing suicide... This was really well done (much more climatic than Vesper's death in the book), very well written, directed and played.

In a way, Tracy's death (not a villain of course) was more tragic, however, the drama of CR with Vesper's death is the most dramatic death scene in any Bond movie period (at least IMHO). When Vesper is drowning, especially right at the end, it's almost hard to watch. I personally don't consider Vesper a villain - I view her as a tragic figure.

[tambourineman]

Would we even be having this conversation if Elektra had been a guy? I dont see everyone up in arms over Bond casually shooting Professor Dent in Dr No which was far more callous and unneccessary. But undeniably cool.

[MkB]

Would we even be having this conversation if Elektra had been a guy? I dont see everyone up in arms over Bond casually shooting Professor Dent in Dr No which was far more callous and unneccessary. But undeniably cool.

The key words here are "undeniably cool" : the problem is that this scene with Elektra could have been "undeniably cool", but, in my opinion, is not a complete success because of a bad script.

And by the way, if Elektra had been a guy, I guess Bond wouldn't have slept and started falling in love with him (unless a new reboot of the franchise would have been planned), therefore the things at stake would have been different.

[Skudor]

He shot her to stop her from warning Renard. Perhaps a little late, though.

It also shows Bond as being the ruthless killer he should be.

[Daddy Bond]

Would we even be having this conversation if Elektra had been a guy? I dont see everyone up in arms over Bond casually shooting Professor Dent in Dr No which was far more callous and unneccessary. But undeniably cool.

Well, it is the fact that she was originally victimized during her kidnapping that seemed to produce the criminal propensities in her that makes the shooting seem even more senseless, and, as someone else pointed out, illegal, even for a double-O.

And yes, men should seek to protect and defend women and should be more hesitant against dishing out violence against them because they should be protectors. Some may mock the idea of protection of women as being old fashioned (M would probably call me on old fossil - even though I am decades younger than her) - but so be it. This is the way things were created to be even though most modern society is struggling its hardest to redefine everything.

[00Twelve]

No, she faked the Stockholm syndrome. Bond's discovery of the Stockholm syndrome wasn't the final twist. Elektra was always wanting to usurp her father, even before the kidnapping. The final twist came (no pun intended...but maybe it was intended by the writers) during the chair torture, as Bond realizes that Elektra "turned Renard." She used him. Elektra was always the real villain. So, Bond didn't shoot a victim of Stockholm syndrome.

[Daddy Bond]

He shot her to stop her from warning Renard. Perhaps a little late, though.

It also shows Bond as being the ruthless killer he should be.

I always viewed Bond as an efficient cold-hearted assassin willing to kill in the national security of England (or the world is on the line), or if someone is threatening harm or the life of another (or Bond), or has committed such crimes.

However, in the case of Elektra King:
1. She still appears to have developed her criminal propensities as a result of her original kidnapping - so, despite her crimes, appears to be driven by her previous trauma - and is not thinking coherently. She appears to be a victim driven to crime (though responsible - still not worthy of a cold-hearted point blank gun shot to the heart).
2. She did not really appear to be an immediate threat to Bond (she didn't even seem to play any key role in Renard carrying out his plans - at that point). Bond could have knocked her out, smashed her radio and had M keep an eye on her.

No, she faked the Stockholm syndrome. Bond's discovery of the Stockholm syndrome wasn't the final twist. Elektra was always wanting to usurp her father, even before the kidnapping. The final twist came (no pun intended...but maybe it was intended by the writers) during the chair torture, as Bond realizes that Elektra "turned Renard." She used him. Elektra was always the real villain. So, Bond didn't shoot a victim of Stockholm syndrome.

Actually, now, this would make a bit more sense. If true, do you think the writers made it clear enough that she was not a true victim???

Regards

[MkB]

Just thinkink about Bond and killing women, I just thought back about two other women Villains deaths :
- Fiona Volpe in Thunderball : Connery's Bond doesn't directly kill her, but uses her as a human shield, and makes a post-killing joke.
- Miranda Frost in Thunderball : Brosnan's Bond doesn't kill her (it's Jinx), bu however he seems kind of sorry when he finds her body (well, not grieving, but a bit sorry). And Miranda Frost was far more clearly a Villain than Elektra, without any excuse, and she had harmed him much more by betraying him and having him captured in North Korea.

It seems Bosnan's Bond was much more in Daddy Bond's views about women than Connery's !

[Daddy Bond]

Just thinkink about Bond and killing women, I just thought back about two other women Villains deaths :
- Fiona Volpe in Thunderball : Connery's Bond doesn't directly kill her, but uses her as a human shield, and makes a post-killing joke.
- Miranda Frost in Thunderball : Brosnan's Bond doesn't kill her (it's Jinx), bu however he seems kind of sorry when he finds her body (well, not grieving, but a bit sorry). And Miranda Frost was far more clearly a Villain than Elektra, without any excuse, and she had harmed him much more by betraying him and having him captured in North Korea.

It seems Bosnan's Bond was much more in Daddy Bond's views about women than Connery's !

Yes, generally, I would agree with that. Brosnan's Bond does display more care about protecting than Connery's Bond. In this regard, I like Craig's interaction with Vesper. Even Craig's Bond's statement about her being dead comes from someone who has been deeply hurt and not someone making light of her death (as Connery's Bond would seem more likely to do).

[00Twelve]

No, she faked the Stockholm syndrome. Bond's discovery of the Stockholm syndrome wasn't the final twist. Elektra was always wanting to usurp her father, even before the kidnapping. The final twist came (no pun intended...but maybe it was intended by the writers) during the chair torture, as Bond realizes that Elektra "turned Renard." She used him. Elektra was always the real villain. So, Bond didn't shoot a victim of Stockholm syndrome.

Actually, now, this would make a bit more sense. If true, do you think the writers made it clear enough that she was not a true victim???

Regards

No, it took me several viewings to really get it all. You have to pay attention to every single line, and most of the lines are written as short quips, so you're not really conditioned to think that you need to pay such close attention. I felt that they left the viewer to put some things together and that they didn't spell it out very well. Of course, if someone is about to figure out the plot, Bond interrupts them and sums it all up in one nice sentence. It's kind of inconsistent. If you watch the chair torture scene and pay close attention to the lines, Elektra cut her own ear lobe off as a means to manipulate Renard into thinking she had been victimized by his men. She manipulated him into liking her and thinking her vulnerable. Renard thought he was in control, but it was Elektra.

See how much you have to deduce on your own? Whew.