42 replies to this topic

[byline]

I apologize in advance if this is duplicating an earlier discussion. I've searched high and low for the original thread, but can't find it. I'm sure I read it either here or over on the IMDb forums, but can't find the specific quote.

Anyway, someone mentioned the fact that an "in-joke" few people got was the fact that Fleming's Bond was a bit of a second-rater who, rather than being genuinely classy, tried to emulate what he thought classy people said and did. So he ordered food and wine, wore clothing that actually did not demonstrate class, but would have revealed to people who knew better that he was trying at it.

Long after I read that quote, I was reminded of the fact that the film Vesper makes a point about this in their scene on the train. She says something about the cut of his suit, and how he thinks real people dress that way. So was that intended as a nod to the way Fleming meant the character to be understood?

[David Schofield]

No, I think both yourself and your IMDBish correspondent have interpreted things wrongly. I think there is a great element of wishing that Bond was an American blue-collar type here.

In Fleming - and the film of CR - he is definately English upper middle class.

There is a thread about it here - something along the lines of "did Bond's dad really work in an arms factory".

But I can't be bothered to look it up.

[the villain's architect]

I can't help you with your question about how Fleming meant the character, but you're right: In the movie Vesper is also very ironic about Bond's watch ("Rolex?"

[byline]

Would you like to see some scenes where he "learns" about class and style in Bond 22 or do you think he already should be secure about those things?

Well, we've already had this discussion elsewhere . . . probably multiple times. I don't think the Bond films need to come across as "training sessions" where Bond learns class and style. But I did like the various points in "Casino Royale" where it was obvious that he was paying attention and picking up a lot of different details. To me, that just seems to suit his personality, and also his job description. He needs to be alert to those things that will enable him to do his job better. But, unlike what the earlier poster said, I have no desire to see Bond rise up from blue collar status into a cultural icon. I like the more subtle hints here and there that he is an astute observer of people.

But I thought it was interesting that all along, we've been led -- at least in the films -- to believe that Bond practically sprang from the womb wearing a tuxedo and sipping a vodka martini. The reality would, of course, be far more complex, and interesting, than that.

[LadySylvia]

From what was revealed about Craig's Bond, he probably came from an upper-middle class family, judging from his father's profession. After his parents died, he was raised by his aunt until his late teens. He also had a benefactor, who probably came from the upper classes. Which probably means that Bond was familiar with the style and tastes of the upper classes by the time CASINO ROYALE began.

In regard to his watch, Vesper had immediately recognized it as the type worn by military intelligence officers. And judging from Bond's comments about the tuxedo that Vesper had purchased, he obviously knew a tailored suit when he saw one. But as Vesper had pointed out, he needed a suit that made him look like a man who could afford to gamble or lose 15 million dollars and not someone who is probably slightly wealthy.

Vesper also guessed from the cut of Bond's suit on the train, he had went to Oxford. But he also wore his suit and tie in a way that expressed his own personal disdain (and probably resentment) for those upper-class students who never let him forget that he came from a class lower than theirs.

Edited by LadySylvia, 23 July 2007 - 05:33 PM.

[byline]

Good points! It's not that Bond is not classy, but rather that he was not born and raised with the expectation of snobbery. I think there's a difference, and that's why Vesper notices that he wears his suit "with such disdain."

By the way, I did find the original comment over on IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/...059048#80059048

Before I found that -- well, actually, someone else found it for me -- I started a thread similar to this one. It yielded some interesting observations (as contrasted with all the usual "No, you're not Bond!"/"Craig sucks!"/"CR not a Bond film!" blather): http://www.imdb.com/...427998#80427998

[byline]

In short, I don't think he is intended to be super upper class but aspiring middle class made good.

Yup, I think that's what the original poster over on IMDb was driving at.

[autquisest]

Judging from CR (2006) alone I

[Colossus]

I thought he was like a trashy hothead lol. In the next one he looks to be the classy sophisticate though.

Edited by Colossus, 29 July 2007 - 09:00 AM.

[byline]

[quote name='autquisest' post='758118' date='28 July 2007 - 13:26']This Bond seems rather "homeless" to me socially, not only deprived of his parents but then again presumably (as a previous poster pointed out) bullied and shown in no uncertain terms that he

[Vauxhall]

I think that Vesper's observations of him in the train scene serve as the perfect evaluation of Bond. He certainly strikes me as someone who was (or, perhaps, still is) "a maladjusted young man", and therefore perfect for MI6.

[Four Aces]

...And judging from Bond's comments about the tuxedo that Vesper had purchased, he obviously knew a tailored suit when he saw one...

That line in the movie was a bit silly, one of the few. It's a "tailored" suit only if Bond has been to the bloody tailor, in which case he would not be surprised. Eh?

Three types of suits (1) RTW - Ready to Wear, (2) MTM - Made to Measure, and (3) Bespoke - custom tailored. The later two types, MTM and Bespoke, require individual visits to a tailor, and therefore would be no surprise that the suit was "tailored". Capsice?

As for the general premise of this thread, I see no wannabe-ism in the Fleming novels of Bond aspiring to be anything other than what he is; I've read them all. Bond simply likes quality goods, hence good shoes, good suits, quality watches, etc. Really not too much different from those of us who wear Allen-Edmond shoes, Submariner watches, or Hickey-Freeman MTM suits.

Cheers,

4A

[LadySylvia]

That line in the movie was a bit silly, one of the few. It's a "tailored" suit only if Bond has been to the bloody tailor, in which case he would not be surprised. Eh?

Huh?

[byline]

That line in the movie was a bit silly, one of the few. It's a "tailored" suit only if Bond has been to the bloody tailor, in which case he would not be surprised. Eh?

Huh?

Yeah, that observation threw me, too. After all, something that is tailor-made need not necessarily have been requested by that individual. Vesper could have "sized Bond up" (as she says) by sight, or she might have got his measurements some other way. Either way, she asked that the jacket be specially made for Bond, hence the "tailored" designation.

[Four Aces]

That line in the movie was a bit silly, one of the few. It's a "tailored" suit only if Bond has been to the bloody tailor, in which case he would not be surprised. Eh?

Huh?

Yeah, that observation threw me, too. After all, something that is tailor-made need not necessarily have been requested by that individual. Vesper could have "sized Bond up" (as she says) by sight, or she might have got his measurements some other way. Either way, she asked that the jacket be specially made for Bond, hence the "tailored" designation.

Nonsense. Measurements by sight? How laughable. Anyone who has been to a tailor knows different, either for suits done RTW, MTM, or bespoke. Furthermore, if his measurements were on on file somewhere, then he would not have acted surprised as if this were his first "tailored" garment.

The line in the movie was cute, and applicable only to an uninformed Bond and movie audience. So why would the writers have chosen that line? Here's what I propose: The suit is of course not "tailored", else Bond would have been to a tailor. However, perhaps it is a full canvas hand-sewn RTW (ready-to-wear) suit/tux like a Brioni. However, at this point Bond isn't educated enough to even know what "full canvas" or "floating canvas" means, nor would the movie audience know these terms. So scripting that it is "tailored", while technically incorrect, serves the purpose of showing that Bond is moving up a notch in his tastes, and this is also successfully conveyed to the movie audiences else we wouldn't even be having this sidebar.

Anyways, back on topic, no, Bond is not second rate, nor does he suffer any inferiority complex, or wanna-be-ism. He simply acquires a taste for quality goods, and also acquires impatience along the way in dealing with poor quality. I would say he is also not brand conscience a la Louis Vuitton. At least that's what I get from the Fleming novels.

Cheers,

4A

Edited by Four Aces, 04 August 2007 - 04:39 PM.

[byline]

Nonsense. Measurements by sight? How laughable.

Well, you'll notice that I said Vesper could have got Bond's measurements some other way . . . and, in fact, that's probably how she did it. MI6 would have his measurements on file, and she could have got hold of those easily enough. But she made that crack to wind him up.

Bond would have been surprised by Vesper's decision to do this because he was supposed to be in charge, and demonstrated that by bringing her a dress of his choice to wear. (By the way, how did he know her dress size?) She rejected his attempt to control her by throwing it back at him with a tailored dinner jacket. A nice little "tit for tat" move on her part.

Edited by byline, 05 August 2007 - 02:40 PM.

[Four Aces]

Nonsense. Measurements by sight? How laughable.

Well, you'll notice that I said Vesper could have got Bond's measurements some other way . . . and, in fact, that's probably how she did it. MI6 would have his measurements on file, and she could have got hold of those easily enough. But she made that crack to wind him up.

Bond would have been surprised by Vesper's decision to do this because he was supposed to be in charge, and demonstrated that by bringing her a dress of his choice to wear. (By the way, how did he know her dress size?) She rejected his attempt to control her by throwing it back at him with a tailored dinner jacket. A nice little "tit for tat" move on her part.

I addressed that in my earlier post about her having acquired the measurements from MI-6. If that were the case, then Bond would not have been surprised at least in regards to making the "tailored" comment. However, he may have been surprised that she went to the effort to get him a nice fitting tux, and probably would have thanked her.

As for the dress size of Vesper, that indeed is something that can be sized up by sight. Dress sizes are nothing like the exactitude given in a "tailored" suit.

In any case, since this is your topic, the above is just a sidebar issue. Concerning the main topic you posted, I do not believe Bond is a wanna-be aspiring to a higher class, or that he is second rate.

Cheers,

4A

[byline]

I addressed that in my earlier post about her having acquired the measurements from MI-6. If that were the case, then Bond would not have been surprised at least in regards to making the "tailored" comment. However, he may have been surprised that she went to the effort to get him a nice fitting tux, and probably would have thanked her.

Well, I was right there with you till that last part. I seriously doubt that Bond would have thanked Vesper for that, given how he was trying to exert his control over her by having her wear a dress of his choosing. So, IMO, his surprise wasn't really over the "tailored" aspect (though that's what he said), but more disdain that she would presume to choose something for him. My take on it was that neither was coming right out and saying what s/he meant: Bond with the "tailored" jab (he was no doubt certain that she'd got it wrong, and it wouldn't fit), and Vesper with the "I sized you up" retort.

As for the original topic, I think here's some disagreement over how many of Bond's tastes are his own, and how many are acquired tastes needed to succeed as a double-O, in a world sometimes "elevated" above his own. But those little differences of opinion are part of the fun of enjoying this character and making him our own.

[Four Aces]

I think our difference here is in how we perceive the "tailored" dialogue. I view it as a reaction of Bond, somewhat childlike, in that he has not yet learned about bespoke or made-to-measure (MTM) suits, while at the same time he displays disdain for such by his reaction. However, he does seem to know about watches (though I would prefer Rolex over Omega). He is still evolutionary at this stage, at least with regards to the cinema Bond. I think you are missing the fictitious aspect of my last post regarding Bond thanking her for the tailored suit if in fact he were educated about such matters.

I think all tastes are acquired. No? Just what tastes would be required to be a 00? Certainly fine watches, tailored suits, etc., would not be a "requirement", especially since most people out there in the world don't really know how to distinguish these things. What say you?

4A

[byline]

I think all tastes are acquired.

I agree (though I'm sure there are those from a certain segment of society who would insist that those things are "bred" through bloodlines, not learned). At any rate, our acquisition of tastes happen for various reasons. In Bond's case, I think it's a mixture of him not knowing which day may be his last -- so he wants to experience the finer things in life -- and also the fact that, because he moves in certain circles to do his work, he needs to be able to fit in without sticking out. So he learns about those tastes. That's why I think he took the dinner jacket "lesson" from Vesper not only as an acquired taste for himself (after all, he certainly seemed to enjoy the effect that dinner jacket created for him), but also as a lesson in the kind of refinement necessary to fit in with Le Chiffre's crowd. Some people seem to interpret that as some sort of attempt to emasculate him, but I think it was just the opposite; he's savvy enough to know (though perhaps not admit) when a bit of knowledge really will improve his situation, and he seizes upon it and uses it to his advantage.

[Four Aces]

Okay, I agree with what you have written above. Especially in the case of the cinematic Bond.

However, with the literary Bond, I think it is more of an acquired taste due to a lack of tolerance. Probably as a reflection of Fleming (?). I can relate to this, and perhaps you can also since you are about my age (I am 49). As an example, I will no longer purchase glued suits. I loathe them. I finally got fed up with having the glue singe up on me when the suit comes back from the dry cleaners. I also don't like it that fused/glued suits don't keep their press like the hand-sewn floating canvas suits do. So now I pay way extra to have a few quality suits instead of more mass produced suits. Same with shoes; I now go exclusively with Allen Edmonds shoes for dress shoes. Same with the watch. I just can't have a battery powered watch run out of power while I'm out on a job in the middle of Africa or some remote spot in another 3rd world region. Where would I get a battery? So my solution is to go with an unassuming mechanical watch - stainless steel Rolex Submariner Date.

I like to think that the literary Bond developed his taste in the same way.

Your opinion on that?

Cheers,

4A

[Santa]

Sorry to butt in to your conversation but each time I see this thread title pop up, I want to point out that being classy and being upper class are not at all the same thing. Being classy can apply to any segment of society, and I would say Bond is classy in his behaviour. This can be learned or inherent and it doesn't make much difference which it is - I've met plenty of upper-class twits with about as much class as pigs in a trough. Less. Equally I've met some fairly classy lowlifes. Kind of . But I'm sure you get my point. As far as Bond's love of fine things goes, I would say that's nurture over nature every time, but a scumbag can just as easily develop sophisticated tastes. An example I'll give is that I won't buy sheets with a threadcount of less than 400 and I prefer 800. This is not a snobbish, upper class thing nor is it aspirational. It's simply that having slept on them once, they felt so much better. Therefore why would I not go for them? Same applies to your suits, 4A and to many other things in life. The only way this has anything to do with the class you were born in is means. If you have money, you may experience and appreciate these things from an early age. If you don't, it may come later or never at all. That's all

[byline]

Sorry to butt in to your conversation but each time I see this thread title pop up, I want to point out that being classy and being upper class are not at all the same thing.

I agree, and I think I made that point somewhere along the line in this thread. But I appreciate the perspective you bring to this discussion.

[Four Aces]

Sorry to butt in to your conversation...The only way this has anything to do with the class you were born in is means.

Apology not accetpted.

We've heard this all before. I guess this is now the part where the thread goes into a death spiral as we talk about the socio-economic injustices of the world, and how money can't buy class, materialism, commercıalısm, yadda-yadda-yadda-barf

Now SantaJosefina, do you have an opinion to contribute to the topic of the thread? In other words do you think Bond is a second-rate wannabe on a social climb, or do you think his tastes ascend for different reasons? I mean we are here to talk about Bond.

4A

Edited by Four Aces, 06 August 2007 - 02:36 AM.

[Santa]

Sorry to butt in to your conversation...The only way this has anything to do with the class you were born in is means.

Apology not accetpted.

We've heard this all before. I guess this is now the part where the thread goes into a death spiral as we talk about the socio-economic injustices of the world, and how money can't buy class, materialism, commercıalısm, yadda-yadda-yadda-barf

Er, I'm not saying anything at all about the socio-economic injustices of the world, thanks. Not a thing.

Now SantaJosefina, do you have an opinion to contribute to the topic of the thread? In other words do you think Bond is a second-rate wannabe on a social climb, or do you think his tastes ascend for different reasons? I mean we are here to talk about Bond.

4A

I thought I said it - Bond likes the finer things because he does. It doesn't have to have anything to do with your social class or being classy. He's tried a certain cigarette and likes it better than others, he's tried RTW suits and finds he prefers bespoke, pretty much the same as yourself. He's tried, I don't know, caviar, and finds he likes it better than chip butties. What's so complicated about that?

[Santa]

For what it's worth I stick my tuppence in. Yes of course he likes certain things because he does, but he does have taste. Some people have it some don't. That taste stems from his education at Eton, his upper middle class upbringing and also from being an officer in the RN.

In short, there are no chavvy shell suit wearing Vikki Pollards at Eton (as far as I am aware!!) and the desire for top knotch precise engineering in all things gadgetry comes from the experience in the RN.

His 'class' has given him access to the finer things, and once you have had the finer things it is not so easy to resort to the cheap and tacky. Thus, Bond is classy, his taste and class derive from his upbringing, education and career.

Me? I am cheap and tacky because I never have had access to the finer things, but I am sure when I do, I will throw away my Asda earings and maybe get myself some Tiffany's!!

Alea Jacta Est.

That was kind of the point I was making but mixed in with others I think there are very few who prefer something crap over something good but some just don't know what the good things are from a certain point. If you grow up, er, drinking liquidised caviar from your baby bottle you're not likely to have been born in the back of a burnt out Escort on a council estate. But the same chavvy baby might grow up later and like a bit of caviar (personally I think it's slimy, fishy goo). Bond had the access to the better things earlier than some others and liked them because they are better, not because he's a second rater trying to keep up with the richer boys.

the desire for top knotch precise engineering in all things gadgetry comes from the experience in the RN

Exactly. I believe he likes the finer things for their own sakes, not because he has a chip on his shoulder about other schoolboys having rich parents. But again, I don't believe being born with good taste has anything to do with money, nor does classy behaviour. Vicky Beckham had wealthy parents, apparently. She hasn't grown up with good taste . I mean, I think you can be born with it or not, regardless of money, and sometimes it can be learned but still some people have natural good taste, no matter what class they're born in. Having money has simply allowed Bond to indulge his finer tastes a bit more then some. And frankly, the British class system is far more complicated than a bank account. It's not as if one gains automatic entrance to the upper classes with the addition of an extra zero on the bank statement. There are plenty of impoverished nobles out there too, so I'd be surprised if it was ever THAT much of an issue for Bond at Eton. Children can be cruel so some may have made the odd comment but I don't really believe it has influenced Bond that much. I think Vesper was reaching a bit there.

[erniecureo]

Time for my tuppence...

To me, class is best defined as not caring what others think, while simultaneously taking pains to ensure that those around him (assuming he cares about them) are comfortable. Let me explain.

Bond is comfortable in any strata of society. As a result, he can converse without condescension to a self-educated Jamaican girl during one mission, discuss heraldry with a confirmed academic in another, and refuse to be bullied by one of the world's most wealthy men in another.

Class is about confidence.

I believe you should consume what you like, as long as it makes you happy. Whether it's a bespoke suit, caviar, or cigarettes from Morland's, if you enjoy it, do it. I think it's just as classy to smoke Marlboros, drink Pabst Blue Ribbon, and shop at Kmart--if that's what you enjoy. However, it's NOT classy to 1) let everyone know that you "must" have the finer things, and 2) derive pleasure from OTHER people's reactions to this news, i.e., envy.

Bond likes what he likes for reasons that have already been discussed. However, there are those of us who own nice things because we crave others' approval, not because we especially like the things in question.

That's not Bond. One thing that makes him such an enduring icon is, I think, that he truly doesn't worry about what other people think. He's secure in who he is and what he does. He's so secure, in fact, that he doesn't run around telling everyone how secure he is.

I get the feeling that some people here would pull up to the Ocean Club in a rented Ford and take great pains to make sure the valet knew that it's "just a rental, while the Aston's in the shop."

Not cool, not classy, and not Bond.

[Santa]

That's not Bond. One thing that makes him such an enduring icon is, I think, that he truly doesn't worry about what other people think. He's secure in who he is and what he does. He's so secure, in fact, that he doesn't run around telling everyone how secure he is.

This is a very good point and it's one that's interesting to me. I've mentioned on other threads that I don't feel I have a grip on Fleming's character because it's often been mentioned that he seems to have based Bond on himself, plus he's often described as witty, charming, confident etc., all the things we like about Bond. However I can't make this image fit with the Fleming who was patronised by his wife and her snobby friends and made by them to feel that his writing was inferior. I have read that he was pretty gutted about this. So in this confidence Bond has I have to assume I see a reflection of Fleming's insecurities. Despite the general reports of his urbanity I'm sure he had his issues, as we all do, and maybe the fact that Bond is a bit, well, anally retentive about his tastes is Fleming slightly overegging the pudding in creating that sense of confidence.

[Four Aces]

For what it's worth I stick my tuppence in. Yes of course he likes certain things because he does, but he does have taste. Some people have it some don't. That taste stems from his education at Eton, his upper middle class upbringing and also from being an officer in the RN.

In short, there are no chavvy shell suit wearing Vikki Pollards at Eton (as far as I am aware!!) and the desire for top knotch precise engineering in all things gadgetry comes from the experience in the RN.

His 'class' has given him access to the finer things, and once you have had the finer things it is not so easy to resort to the cheap and tacky. Thus, Bond is classy, his taste and class derive from his upbringing, education and career.

Me? I am cheap and tacky because I never have had access to the finer things, but I am sure when I do, I will throw away my Asda earings and maybe get myself some Tiffany's!!

Alea Jacta Est.

This is nicely put and hence negates the basic proposition of the thread (which BTW is an interesting topic), in that (1) Bond is not a wanna-be, and (2) that he is not second rate. Well said!

Time for my tuppence...

I get the feeling that some people here would pull up to the Ocean Club in a rented Ford and take great pains to make sure the valet knew that it's "just a rental, while the Aston's in the shop."

Not cool, not classy, and not Bond.

Oh, I think you are correct. Somewhat similar to those who would announce and brag about their military experiences. Very un-Bond

[erniecureo]

Oh, I think you are correct. Somewhat similar to those who would announce and brag about their military experiences. Very un-Bond.

I stand suitably chastised...In the future, I'll be sure to limit my comments to the number of bespoke suits I own, what brand of shoes I wear, and how many dresses I buy for my "traveling companions" when I'm staying at fancy hotels.

Back to the topic at hand...

Despite the general reports of his urbanity I'm sure he had his issues, as we all do, and maybe the fact that Bond is a bit, well, anally retentive about his tastes is Fleming slightly overegging the pudding in creating that sense of confidence.

Agreed, and I also think this refers perhaps to Fleming's "wish fulfillment." While some aspects of Bond were certainly modeled on himself, I'm sure others were more about who he wished he was...