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Marc Forster And Paul Haggis Discuss 'Bond 22'


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#31 tdalton

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 05:55 PM

P & W - why fire them? They earn their money by providing a framework that others flesh out/improve (which is how 99% of all films are developed). They know their Fleming, and their recent Bond work has been good. I'm all for slagging off DAD when I'm having a bad day, but honestly, how long are we going to hang that around their necks?

Give the boys a break (today is a good day!!!).


Agreed. Generally, their ideas for the Bond films have been very solid. The concept of TWINE is solid enough, and it had the potential to be a truly classic Bond film, but after all the rewrites, that potential got lost along the way. DAD had a terrific basic premise, but was let down by awful CGI amongst other things. It is clear, though, that P&W do know how to craft a good story, and I think that letting them work with someone who can complement their storylines by adding good dialogue and helping to give the characters a bit more development is a good direction for EON to take when moving forward into creating some great original stories now that all the substantial Fleming material (that could be the focal point of a script) has been used up.

#32 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 06:53 PM

It's clear as day that TWINE's problem was Eon hiring a director who was not used to anything other than t.v. or female character studies from years earlier while DAD's problem was Eon hiring a director who went off the deep end and overdosed on cgi-oriented ideas.

Adding to the 'director mishaps' was Eon deciding that an American 'name' was needed in the lead girl role.

P+W did good jobs wuth the basic stories and shouldnt be blamed for Apted's and Tamahori's shortcomings or Denise Richard's and Halle Berry's acting abilities.

Edited by HildebrandRarity, 09 July 2007 - 06:57 PM.


#33 HH007

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 07:19 PM

P&W are not entirely to blame for the shortcomings of TWINE and DAD. We also have to look to the producers. The Bond films are the producer's medium, and they would say things like "We want an invisible car." "We want Denise Richards to play a nuclear scientist!" "We want a big, over-the-top chase in an ice palace, and we want a big, over-the-top climax on an airplane."

Also, P&W can't be blamed for the producers deciding to spend big bucks on getting Halle Berry and Maddona for the movie instead of using that money to create some decent special effects (the ice berg surfing scene).

#34 tdalton

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 08:10 PM

It's clear as day that TWINE's problem was Eon hiring a director who was not used to anything other than t.v. or female character studies from years earlier while DAD's problem was Eon hiring a director who went off the deep end and overdosed on cgi-oriented ideas.

Adding to the 'director mishaps' was Eon deciding that an American 'name' was needed in the lead girl role.

P+W did good jobs wuth the basic stories and shouldnt be blamed for Apted's and Tamahori's shortcomings or Denise Richard's and Halle Berry's acting abilities.


Agreed. I'm fairly happy with the job that P&W have done with the scripts that they've written. Sure, they may not be the best writers of dialogue, but that's nothing that a good script polisher can't easily fix. As long as they get a good idea in place for the film, then that's the most important thing, IMO, and it's something that they've proven to be very good at.

#35 blueman

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Posted 10 July 2007 - 04:58 AM

P&W are responsible for some of the worst dialogue in film history. I've seen cartoons with better dialogue than was heard in TWINE and DAD. And most of their ideas suck as well IMO...but maybe that's SODDI.

Just weird that with film after film, there are excuses for why it's not their fault. And the only film with their names attached had an Oscor-winning dude "polish" it. Just freakin' weird. Love to read something they wrote in its pure form...

Edited by blueman, 10 July 2007 - 04:59 AM.


#36 Roger Moore's Bad Facelift

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Posted 10 July 2007 - 08:03 AM

My post, you'll notice, didn't compare the BO of Bonds 20 and 21, and I see both as huge cash successes.)

Yes, sorry if it seems I was specifically targeting you.
I meant the DAD critics who do.

Now, I was all with the Bond fever when DAD came out. GE totally refueled my interest in the franchise, and TND thrilled me at the time. Flawed they may be, but at the time I was pumped. TWINE only continued that, and the DAD trailers had me ready to go.

And I genuinely left the cinema feeling...flat. Not ruined, just deflated. Weak actions sequences poor style decisions generally led to disappointment, in myself and the people I saw it with. (All non-fans.) Which is a personal reaction, I admit.


I

#37 sorking

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Posted 10 July 2007 - 09:39 AM

So, given the poor word of mouth, what made for DAD's success?


But what are you basing that on aside from your circle of friends and online Fleming literary snobs?
The online reaction is overwhelmingly negative to be sure, but lets not mistake fanboys airing their grievances as a fair sampling of society at large.


I wasn't. At all. Hell, I wasn't even part of a Bond online community back then.

It's based on exactly what I stated above - the popular culture, the general press. Everything from Empire magazine to FHM, from the IMDb to The Times. From Kermode's review radio to The Chris Moyles Show. General popular culture, across the boards, from which trends can be identified.

The reaction to Brosnan's era has been generally fine - good and bad, but widely popular. Still, DAD, very specifically, is raised again and again of a touchstone for 'what went wrong' with the franchise. Not by fanboys and Flemingites, but by the general press and public.

You can still find positive comments, of course - just as you can about, say, the Star Wars prequels. But there is a common - not fanboy - perception that DAD somewhat vaulted the shark. I think it's overplayed sometimes, but there's no denying the difference between the DAD reaction and common opinion and that of TWINE, where coverage is generally 'indifferent' rather than 'negative'.

But - as X3 and Fast and Furious 3 demonstrate - the popularity of a previous film can really drive the commercial success of a sequel. If you can drive that momentum, well, your weak film can still get a good return.


I agree those films were awful, but at the same time, I have encountered ALOT of people who genuinely liked those films.
Worse yet, there is even a train of thought that claims X3 to be the best of the bunch!


Um - I never claimed no people whatsoever could like DAD, X3 or any other film. Of course some people liked them! I never suggested otherwise!

I didn't state they were awful, either, I was just using them as examples of popular trends - good BO vs negative general cultural response.

Obviously I'm only doing a five-line analysis, so one can't account for literally every individual reaction possible. You just work with generalisations, trends. Me, I liked X3, but didn't adore it. I liked bits of DAD, too. But I'm talking about the relative status of these items at the box office and in popular culture - not fanboy culture, but mainstream general opinion. Where, of course, the word 'general' forces us to be unspecific.

I could write essays defending DAD, if you like. I'm not up for persecuting the film and writing it off entirely. Initially I was only noting a point about the film during part of a different discussion.

In a debate about popular and critical response, one has to acknowledge the overall response. That where GE was seen as a 'great to have him back' return to form, TND as a comfortable settling in to a loved formula and TWINE as 'that one people don't quite remember so have little strong opinion about', DAD is perceived as 'the silly one with the rubbish CGI and stupid invisible car'.

Not saying I found the car stupid - in fact see my posts above, I claimed quite the opposite - but that IS what 'people' say. Not every single person, but not just fans either.

#38 sorking

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Posted 15 July 2007 - 07:03 PM

And trust me, Mamet's HANNIBAL is bad.

I would be fascinated to read it - I've always been a fan of Mamet's, but I've never read this. Can it really be so dreadful? Any chance of a link by PM?

Heck, I'll link it here. No need to be hush-hush about it.

http://www.dailyscri...unproduced.html

Mamet doesn't even know how to properly spell "Lecter."


Thanks for that, BTW. It's a fascinating, if worrying, read.

The Lecter thing could be deliberate - rebranding the character via his spelling, just as Michael Mann did...?

#39 Harmsway

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Posted 15 July 2007 - 07:23 PM

Thanks for that, BTW. It's a fascinating, if worrying, read.

Yeah. It's an interesting trainwreck. That's why Ridely Scott decided to entirely throw it out, hired Steve Zaillian, and spent a week with Thomas Harris discussing a film adaptation. Mamet only ended up with a credit because of contractual reasons.

The Lecter thing could be deliberate - rebranding the character via his spelling, just as Michael Mann did...?

Perhaps.

#40 dodge

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 02:04 PM

P&W are responsible for some of the worst dialogue in film history. I've seen cartoons with better dialogue than was heard in TWINE and DAD. And most of their ideas suck as well IMO...but maybe that's SODDI.

Just weird that with film after film, there are excuses for why it's not their fault. And the only film with their names attached had an Oscor-winning dude "polish" it. Just freakin' weird. Love to read something they wrote in its pure form...


You and me both. I'd especially love to read their working copy submitted to Eon. Yeah, the one that compelled Paul Haggis to devote six months to 'polishing'. Shouldn't we expect highly paid professionals--with three Bond films under their belts--to do a lot better than that? What floors me, as it does you, is the lack of accountability. When book manuscripts are turned in--and turn out to be substandard--publishers aren't shy about it. They may not demand the advance back, but they'll kill the contract and you can be sure the welcome mat is no longer there for that author.

#41 dodge

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 02:26 PM

How is that we have access to David Mamet's rejected script for Hannibal, but can't get our hands on the P&W scripts? It just seems really odd to me, with the massive leakage going on in all phases of production, that no one can come up with their first draft for CR or 22. Can any of you insiders help fill us in?

#42 Loomis

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 02:55 PM

And get the JINX script while you're at it. That's the number one Bond (-related) screenplay I'd love to read.

(Although, curiously enough, I seem to be in a real minority in Bond fandom on this issue. Does the widespread hatred of Halle Berry* trump fan interest in what P&W have called a gritty script similar to that of CASINO ROYALE, which was good enough to attract venerable director Stephen Frears, and came within a whisker of being made into a film? Apparently it does.)

*AKA: The Worst Thing About DAD™.

#43 Harmsway

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 02:59 PM

How is that we have access to David Mamet's rejected script for Hannibal, but can't get our hands on the P&W scripts? It just seems really odd to me, with the massive leakage going on in all phases of production, that no one can come up with their first draft for CR or 22. Can any of you insiders help fill us in?

It's just that there's more security, I think.

#44 00Twelve

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 04:20 PM

I'm a little on the confused side. I mean, I'm not one who is hoping 22 begins with the very next second after CR's "Bond, James Bond," but I was really hoping to have more than a passing reference to CR's events. What constitutes the difference between "following on the heels" and "direct continuation?" I know I'm not the only one wondering about this. And will we continue to see Bond's character develop? I'll consider CR as an artistic fluke if we're right back to Bond as usual. Dan mentioned to Daily Express about us seeing Bond's tender side in this one, and I have hopes that that can be a good thing, if done honestly, and still in keeping with the original literary concept. Bond did have a tender side, no doubt. More honestly so than what we've usually seen in the films.

:cooltongue:

#45 Harmsway

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 04:29 PM

I mean, I'm not one who is hoping 22 begins with the very next second after CR's "Bond, James Bond," but I was really hoping to have more than a passing reference to CR's events. What constitutes the difference between "following on the heels" and "direct continuation?"

My guess?

"On the heels" is like BOURNE IDENTITY/SUPREMACY. Films that connect to one another in story threads, but are really independent ventures. You don't need to have seen the previous film to follow the sequel.

"Direct continuation" would be LORD OF THE RINGS, or the POTC: AT WORLD'S END. Something that feels like the same movie but has been divided into blocks. Something that doesn't stand on its own two feet, really.

And will we continue to see Bond's character develop?

According to P&W we will.

#46 stamper

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 04:33 PM

P&W are not entirely to blame for the shortcomings of TWINE and DAD. We also have to look to the producers. The Bond films are the producer's medium, and they would say things like "We want an invisible car." "We want Denise Richards to play a nuclear scientist!" "


If I was the producer, I would just say "I want Denise Richards". The rest would not matter to me !

#47 dodge

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 05:26 PM

Can we agree on some basic parameters about accountability? I mean, is anyoneresponsible when a film goes wrong?

Three arguments that most concern me are these:
1) The screenwriters aren't responsible. Too many other hands tinker with a screenplay and the final result is beyond the scribes' control.
Issue: Yet some are perfectly willing to give P&W full credit for a film of sixteen years ago--Let Him Have It--while not holding them accountable for their projects since then. Isn't it equally possible that LHHI was the result of many other hands?

2) The screenwriters can't be incompetent--or, more kindly, not up to the task--because they've been rehired three times.
Issues: William Goldman (I believe) once wrote that screenwriters always keep working. Joe Eszterhas wasn't affected at all by the ka-ka that was Showgirls. No one likes to admit that they've made a mistake and there's a Blue Line among writers as strong as the one among cops. Paul Haggis will, and must, praise their invaluable contributions.
--A six-month rewrite isn't common script-doctoring--it is script brain surgery.

3) The director's not responsible for anything but the directing. He doesn't write the screenplay and the second-unit's in charge of the action.
Issues: Forster's co-authoring the rewrite, so he'd better shoulder his share of the blame or, God willing, the praise. And we've seen what happens when inexperienced action directors turn the reins over to the second-unit. Since Forster's already taking so much control, he might as well go all the way--and really get into the acttion as Martin Campbell and Peter Hunt did. Full responsibility.


If 22 should disappoint, whom would you hold accountable?

#48 Judo chop

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 05:34 PM

I mean, I'm not one who is hoping 22 begins with the very next second after CR's "Bond, James Bond," but I was really hoping to have more than a passing reference to CR's events. What constitutes the difference between "following on the heels" and "direct continuation?"

My guess?

"On the heels" is like BOURNE IDENTITY/SUPREMACY. Films that connect to one another in story threads, but are really independent ventures. You don't need to have seen the previous film to follow the sequel.

"Direct continuation" would be LORD OF THE RINGS, or the POTC: AT WORLD'S END. Something that feels like the same movie but has been divided into blocks. Something that doesn't stand on its own two feet, really.


Personally I feel I needed to see Identity before watching Supremacy. I certainly would never recommend the latter to a friend before he/she saw the former, but I get your point Harms. LOTR is distinctly a Part I/II/III composition, wheras Bourne is close to, but just 'not quite so'. I don

#49 blueman

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 05:55 PM

Can we agree on some basic parameters about accountability? I mean, is anyoneresponsible when a film goes wrong?

Three arguments that most concern me are these:
1) The screenwriters aren't responsible. Too many other hands tinker with a screenplay and the final result is beyond the scribes' control.
Issue: Yet some are perfectly willing to give P&W full credit for a film of sixteen years ago--Let Him Have It--while not holding them accountable for their projects since then. Isn't it equally possible that LHHI was the result of many other hands?

2) The screenwriters can't be incompetent--or, more kindly, not up to the task--because they've been rehired three times.
Issues: William Goldman (I believe) once wrote that screenwriters always keep working. Joe Eszterhas wasn't affected at all by the ka-ka that was Showgirls. No one likes to admit that they've made a mistake and there's a Blue Line among writers as strong as the one among cops. Paul Haggis will, and must, praise their invaluable contributions.
--A six-month rewrite isn't common script-doctoring--it is script brain surgery.

3) The director's not responsible for anything but the directing. He doesn't write the screenplay and the second-unit's in charge of the action.
Issues: Forster's co-authoring the rewrite, so he'd better shoulder his share of the blame or, God willing, the praise. And we've seen what happens when inexperienced action directors turn the reins over to the second-unit. Since Forster's already taking so much control, he might as well go all the way--and really get into the acttion as Martin Campbell and Peter Hunt did. Full responsibility.


If 22 should disappont, whom would you hold accountable?



About point #3: If you're refering to Apted and TWINE, you gotta also throw in there that Apted was poorly suited for the genre (I'm being generous here...), the second unit wasn't all that great to begin with, and--however it came about--the script sucked batparts. That Forster is in the mix now and working with Haggis on the script makes me think the action will be even more integrated than CR.

My expectation is that Bond 22 blows the roof off the series.

#50 Bucky

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 06:03 PM

do they really need a second unit? if i remember correctly christopher nolan directed everything for batman begins and that turned out great. im suppose it would be important if there are so many things that need to be shot in a specific period of time though.

#51 dodge

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 07:52 PM

[quote name='Judo chop' post='755613' date='16 July 2007 - 17:34'][quote name='Harmsway' post='755603' date='16 July 2007 - 11:29'][quote name='00Twelve' post='755601' date='16 July 2007 - 11:20']I mean, I'm not one who is hoping 22 begins with the very next second after CR's "Bond, James Bond," but I was really hoping to have more than a passing reference to CR's events. What constitutes the difference between "following on the heels" and "direct continuation?"[/quote]
My guess?

"On the heels" is like BOURNE IDENTITY/SUPREMACY. Films that connect to one another in story threads, but are really independent ventures. You don't need to have seen the previous film to follow the sequel.

"Direct continuation" would be LORD OF THE RINGS, or the POTC: AT WORLD'S END. Something that feels like the same movie but has been divided into blocks. Something that doesn't stand on its own two feet, really.
[/quote]

Personally I feel I needed to see Identity before watching Supremacy. I certainly would never recommend the latter to a friend before he/she saw the former, but I get your point Harms. LOTR is distinctly a Part I/II/III composition, wheras Bourne is close to, but just 'not quite so'. I don

#52 dinovelvet

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 11:16 PM

How is that we have access to David Mamet's rejected script for Hannibal, but can't get our hands on the P&W scripts? It just seems really odd to me, with the massive leakage going on in all phases of production, that no one can come up with their first draft for CR or 22. Can any of you insiders help fill us in?

It's just that there's more security, I think.


The scripts for DAD were individually numbered/coded so if any scripts did leak, EON would know exactly who was responsible. I think they were annoyed that the TWINE script got out onto the internet early. Curiously they were more lax with CR...is it because they knew they had a winner on their hands with that one?

#53 JimmyBond

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 04:19 AM

do they really need a second unit? if i remember correctly christopher nolan directed everything for batman begins and that turned out great. im suppose it would be important if there are so many things that need to be shot in a specific period of time though.


You just answered your own question with th esecond sentence. Bond films are so huge that it'd take forever for the director to shoot everything.

#54 sorking

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 05:00 PM

1) The screenwriters aren't responsible. Too many other hands tinker with a screenplay and the final result is beyond the scribes' control.
Issue: Yet some are perfectly willing to give P&W full credit for a film of sixteen years ago--Let Him Have It--while not holding them accountable for their projects since then. Isn't it equally possible that LHHI was the result of many other hands?


LHHI wasn't a major production featuring huge stars, product placement and the significant financial future of a major corporation. The difference between the corporate demands of the two films should be blindingly obvious.

I don't give FULL credit to them for that film. It's also smartly cast and directed. which, in turn, is good producing. As is choosing to make a script as-witten. With a screenplay that no other writers re-wrote, produced in line with the original intentions, they are entitled to be be given credit for the structure and tone. Just as the director should. Everyone gets some credit, there.

Nor does anyone say 'You can't blame them for anything in TWINE and DAD'. We're just saying that, as Goldman would agree, trying to judge writers on blockbuster screenplays like this is like trying to assess a wine by licking a carpet it was spilled on. It's there, but there's too much fluff to make a reasonable negative assessment.

2) The screenwriters can't be incompetent--or, more kindly, not up to the task--because they've been rehired three times.
Issues: William Goldman (I believe) once wrote that screenwriters always keep working. Joe Eszterhas wasn't affected at all by the ka-ka that was Showgirls. No one likes to admit that they've made a mistake and there's a Blue Line among writers as strong as the one among cops. Paul Haggis will, and must, praise their invaluable contributions.
--A six-month rewrite isn't common script-doctoring--it is script brain surgery.


That Eszterhas 'fact' is nonsense. He's barely worked as a writer since Showgirls - dropping from the highest paid writer in town to someone struggling for work. He switched to a low-budget semi-autobiography in an attempt to regain some reputation of integrity, but check the IMDb - he was on the way out the minute it happened. No doubt Jade would have been dropped, too, if it hadn't already got so far into production.

What does this tell us? That the industry knows. Showgirls was made under little studio interference - the director and writer doing exactly what they intended. Sticking to the script. It's flaws belong to both men. And both men's careers suffered.

Let me hit that again: it was the script Eszterhas wrote, everyone knew it, and it hurt his career.

Of course that was far more financial than it was critical - had the film made cash, he'd have been fine, quality be damned. Which, I'm sure you'll happily argue, is how P&W survive.

Unwilling to admit a mistake? By, what, spending yet more money on a screenplay you anticipate being rubbish? Sicne when did the Bond team have any difficulty bringing in and sending out their writers? Didn't you hear how TND was written? A hotel full of writers pitching!

You've got no evidence that P&W do anything but live up to what the producers want and need. That they don't live up to what you want is a separate issue.

Me, I still insist that CR is excellent, and they must have written a minimum of 40% of that script to retain full screenplay (rather than 'story') credit. I also see a lot of good in what TWINE was attempting. And DAD is packed with good ideas.

Still, you need only compare their three films to see that they have zero control over the tone and balance final movie. And we know, clearly, the the director can totally restructure if he has the producers on-side.

As for "brain surgery", you need to know a little about how the process works. Daniel Craig's rquested rewrite has to happen, but won't come until after the director's, which will be followed by the producers'. And then umpteen rewites will follow as X location becomes unavailable, a new tax break allows a change in setting, a plane can't be used but a train is available, etc. etc. Oh, and did I mention yet the stack of input Sony, the licensees, and the sponsors will want?

SOMEONE has to perform those rewrites - and it's inefficient to have three writers doing them. Especially when one is coming in anyway to add his own layers of texture to the script.

3) The director's not responsible for anything but the directing. He doesn't write the screenplay and the second-unit's in charge of the action.
Issues: Forster's co-authoring the rewrite, so he'd better shoulder his share of the blame or, God willing, the praise. And we've seen what happens when inexperienced action directors turn the reins over to the second-unit. Since Forster's already taking so much control, he might as well go all the way--and really get into the acttion as Martin Campbell and Peter Hunt did. Full responsibility.


Please stop repeating this ridiculous rumour that Forster is co-writing. He isn't. It's just a mis-reading of the reported fact that Forster is working on the screenplay with Haggis. Which is also what the producers and various units will be doing. He's not re-writing - he's directing the re-writes. Which is a normal part of the process for any screenplay.

As for inexperience - everyone starts somewhere. But the second unit isn't in sole control of the action, never has been. Not unless the director's lost all control. Don't know why this myth exists, but it hardly needs refuting.

If 22 should disappoint, whom would you hold accountable?


In succession? The producers first, as these are producer-led films and they are the only ones with full control. They also assign/approve the cast and crew roles. They picked the director, the writers.

Next, the director. If the action fails, it's the director. That's about control of the shots collected. Apted couldn't do it himself, nor successfully guide his second unit, Campbell could.

Third come the writers. All the writers. If the dialogue itself is poor - as I happily admit some of P&W's to be - they take some blame for that.

Plot holes are harder, as they often come from having too many cooks - both writers and other voices. Everyone wants something added/changed, and sometimes you end up doing it not realising that it has a knock-on effect to other scenes. The director and writers are all meant to retain an overview on this - but that's tough for writers only booked for the pre-pre-production stage.

Overall structure and tone is a combination of all the above, plus any star power that comes through. Plus executive influence on a grand scale - which is why dark comic book movies are harder to get made than colourful ones you can slap on a Happy Meal.

After that, it depends on the flaws. Acting? Actors, and director. Photography? DP, director, and also editor. Editing? Editor, director, but also DP, actors and continuity crew.

My point being - directly blame is hard to attribute on a movie. On a big movie, it's harder. And when a critic doesn't comprehend fully the nature of production, it's harder still.

Or maybe it's easier...

#55 dodge

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 05:11 PM

1) The screenwriters aren't responsible. Too many other hands tinker with a screenplay and the final result is beyond the scribes' control.
Issue: Yet some are perfectly willing to give P&W full credit for a film of sixteen years ago--Let Him Have It--while not holding them accountable for their projects since then. Isn't it equally possible that LHHI was the result of many other hands?


LHHI wasn't a major production featuring huge stars, product placement and the significant financial future of a major corporation. The difference between the corporate demands of the two films should be blindingly obvious.

I don't give FULL credit to them for that film. It's also smartly cast and directed. which, in turn, is good producing. As is choosing to make a script as-witten. With a screenplay that no other writers re-wrote, produced in line with the original intentions, they are entitled to be be given credit for the structure and tone. Just as the director should. Everyone gets some credit, there.

Nor does anyone say 'You can't blame them for anything in TWINE and DAD'. We're just saying that, as Goldman would agree, trying to judge writers on blockbuster screenplays like this is like trying to assess a wine by licking a carpet it was spilled on. It's there, but there's too much fluff to make a reasonable negative assessment.

2) The screenwriters can't be incompetent--or, more kindly, not up to the task--because they've been rehired three times.
Issues: William Goldman (I believe) once wrote that screenwriters always keep working. Joe Eszterhas wasn't affected at all by the ka-ka that was Showgirls. No one likes to admit that they've made a mistake and there's a Blue Line among writers as strong as the one among cops. Paul Haggis will, and must, praise their invaluable contributions.
--A six-month rewrite isn't common script-doctoring--it is script brain surgery.


That Eszterhas 'fact' is nonsense. He's barely worked as a writer since Showgirls - dropping from the highest paid writer in town to someone struggling for work. He switched to a low-budget semi-autobiography in an attempt to regain some reputation of integrity, but check the IMDb - he was on the way out the minute it happened. No doubt Jade would have been dropped, too, if it hadn't already got so far into production.

What does this tell us? That the industry knows. Showgirls was made under little studio interference - the director and writer doing exactly what they intended. Sticking to the script. It's flaws belong to both men. And both men's careers suffered.

Let me hit that again: it was the script Eszterhas wrote, everyone knew it, and it hurt his career.

Of course that was far more financial than it was critical - had the film made cash, he'd have been fine, quality be damned. Which, I'm sure you'll happily argue, is how P&W survive.

Unwilling to admit a mistake? By, what, spending yet more money on a screenplay you anticipate being rubbish? Sicne when did the Bond team have any difficulty bringing in and sending out their writers? Didn't you hear how TND was written? A hotel full of writers pitching!

You've got no evidence that P&W do anything but live up to what the producers want and need. That they don't live up to what you want is a separate issue.

Me, I still insist that CR is excellent, and they must have written a minimum of 40% of that script to retain full screenplay (rather than 'story') credit. I also see a lot of good in what TWINE was attempting. And DAD is packed with good ideas.

Still, you need only compare their three films to see that they have zero control over the tone and balance final movie. And we know, clearly, the the director can totally restructure if he has the producers on-side.

As for "brain surgery", you need to know a little about how the process works. Daniel Craig's rquested rewrite has to happen, but won't come until after the director's, which will be followed by the producers'. And then umpteen rewites will follow as X location becomes unavailable, a new tax break allows a change in setting, a plane can't be used but a train is available, etc. etc. Oh, and did I mention yet the stack of input Sony, the licensees, and the sponsors will want?

SOMEONE has to perform those rewrites - and it's inefficient to have three writers doing them. Especially when one is coming in anyway to add his own layers of texture to the script.

3) The director's not responsible for anything but the directing. He doesn't write the screenplay and the second-unit's in charge of the action.
Issues: Forster's co-authoring the rewrite, so he'd better shoulder his share of the blame or, God willing, the praise. And we've seen what happens when inexperienced action directors turn the reins over to the second-unit. Since Forster's already taking so much control, he might as well go all the way--and really get into the acttion as Martin Campbell and Peter Hunt did. Full responsibility.


Please stop repeating this ridiculous rumour that Forster is co-writing. He isn't. It's just a mis-reading of the reported fact that Forster is working on the screenplay with Haggis. Which is also what the producers and various units will be doing. He's not re-writing - he's directing the re-writes. Which is a normal part of the process for any screenplay.

As for inexperience - everyone starts somewhere. But the second unit isn't in sole control of the action, never has been. Not unless the director's lost all control. Don't know why this myth exists, but it hardly needs refuting.

If 22 should disappoint, whom would you hold accountable?


In succession? The producers first, as these are producer-led films and they are the only ones with full control. They also assign/approve the cast and crew roles. They picked the director, the writers.

Next, the director. If the action fails, it's the director. That's about control of the shots collected. Apted couldn't do it himself, nor successfully guide his second unit, Campbell could.

Third come the writers. All the writers. If the dialogue itself is poor - as I happily admit some of P&W's to be - they take some blame for that.

Plot holes are harder, as they often come from having too many cooks - both writers and other voices. Everyone wants something added/changed, and sometimes you end up doing it not realising that it has a knock-on effect to other scenes. The director and writers are all meant to retain an overview on this - but that's tough for writers only booked for the pre-pre-production stage.

Overall structure and tone is a combination of all the above, plus any star power that comes through. Plus executive influence on a grand scale - which is why dark comic book movies are harder to get made than colourful ones you can slap on a Happy Meal.

After that, it depends on the flaws. Acting? Actors, and director. Photography? DP, director, and also editor. Editing? Editor, director, but also DP, actors and continuity crew.

My point being - directly blame is hard to attribute on a movie. On a big movie, it's harder. And when a critic doesn't comprehend fully the nature of production, it's harder still.

Or maybe it's easier...


You know, your threads grow longer and longer each day. When you stop using words like "ridculous" and "nonsense", I'll respond to you. If you're some sort of industry poobah, declare your qualifications, please, for telling me and others that we lack your expertise and don't understand the process. You do? How so?

#56 Judo chop

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 05:17 PM

Makes sense to me.

#57 dodge

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 05:44 PM

Makes sense to me.


Gee, Judo, what's going on? You were able to agree in under 1000 without using the words ridiculous or nonsense against anyone who disagrees with you.

#58 Judo chop

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 05:57 PM

Makes sense to me.


Gee, Judo, what's going on? You were able to agree in under 1000 without using the words ridiculous or nonsense against anyone who disagrees with you.

I gotta be honest

#59 dodge

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 07:36 PM

Will Forster co-rewrite B22? Here, in all their 'ridiculous' glory, are two of numerous posts claiming that he will be.

Remember: just because it appears in print doesn't mean that it's not true.

Marc Foster, better known for Finding Neverland and Monster

#60 sorking

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 08:05 PM

To all other readers: I apologise profusely for the coming response. It is measured and I believe accurate, but directed at one user rather than forming part of the existing debate.

If any of my previous posts have offended anyone else, I likewise apologise. I'm also sorry about the recurring typos.

In the interests of fairness, Dodge should be allowed to respond - and make whatever claims he feels necessary about me. But at that point I hope any further personal comments and indictments can be left behind in favour of an intelligent discussion of the topics at hand. Which is all I came here for in the first place.

You know, your threads grow longer and longer each day. When you stop using words like "ridculous" and "nonsense", I'll respond to you. If you're some sort of industry poobah, declare your qualifications, please, for telling me and others that we lack your expertise and don't understand the process. You do? How so?


Help me out here - which was annoying you most? The fact that you got caught out being wrong so many times in one post, or the fact that my posts take more time to read than you're willing to spend considering a second viewpoint? :-)

The 'Forster writing' rumour IS ridiculous. It's been made clear repeatedly. Though I never claimed you started it...

And the Ezesterhas fact IS nonsense. It just is. You made it up to prove a point, and you got caught.

The post did go on a bit, I know. But you pack a lot of sweeping claims and statements into a tight space. Refuting some of them takes longer, as this response shows! I thought the post itself responded accurately to your suggestions - a response that was, in fact, requested; I thought you wanted to debate those issues. Long-winded it may be but I'd happily stick by my accuracy.

Declare my qualifications? Last time I did that on here, I was told I could be making it all up - because, mediocre though my career is, it IS a career in the media and somehow it sounds like boasting when you lay it all down. But I could be making it all up, still. Of course I could. How am I to prove otherwise and remain anonymous?

I'm no poobah, nobody's heard of me. I'm just a lackey. But here's the simple truth: I've had a very fortunate few years. I've been honored to work as lead creative producer and director for DVD content on a dozen bestselling chart titles. I have also written broadcast mainstream TV drama for a long-running UK show. I currently freelance as a script editor for one of the main British stations, having performed the same role on a franchise feature film and a forthcoming series. I have a masters degree in cinema. I have been lucky enough to work with some of the Bond crew on other projects. My fifth is in Kriegler by not in Stamper. Who am I?

So - does that entitle me to my opinion, and a reasonable response? Or should I just join in with the making stuff up? :-)

Edited by sorking, 17 July 2007 - 09:20 PM.