53 replies to this topic

[PrinceKamalKhan]

The pre-title sequences for Diamonds Are Forever and For Your Eyes Only both are sequels of sorts to the finale of On Her Majesty's Secret Service and in both of them Bond "kills" Blofeld in response to Tracy's death. Which one handles it better? I like how FYEO's acknowledges Tracy's death and Bond's mourning for her. However, DAF's features a Bond more ruthless and angry even though it never mentions Tracy specifically. Also, the "death" of Blofeld(even though we later learn in the film proper that he was just his double) is handled a little less comically than in FYEO's("keep your hair on", "I'll buy you a delicatessen in stainless steel"!").

In the end, I think DAF's PTS may have been the more effective of the two. Which one do you prefer?(remember the question doesn't pertain to the quality of these 2 Bond films as a whole, just their respective pre-title sequences, thanks).

[Tiin007]

Agreed that Diamonds Are Forever has the better PTS. I like Bond's ruthlessness.

[DLibrasnow]

In the end, I think DAF's PTS may have been the more effective of the two. Which one do you prefer?(remember the question doesn't pertain to the quality of these 2 Bond films as a whole, just their respective pre-title sequences, thanks).

I tend to disagree. I have always had a soft spot for this pre-titles sequence in For Your Eyes Only. It was nice to see Bond pay his respects at Tracy's graveside and the sequence was handled well. One thing I have always liked about the sequence was the way there is no music until Bond gains control of the helicopter.

On the other end I always was underwhelmed by the pre-titles to Diamonds Are Forever. Another thing about that sequence that I am not fond of is the 'Tom & Jerry' cartoon moustrap gag.

[DaveBond21]

Well, I prefer FYEO.

For a start, I believe it to be a PTS that follows on from the events of OHMSS. Whereas to me, DAF seems to refer more to YOLT, beginning as it does in Japan.

I also recognise the Blofeld in FYEO as the real one. In DAF it's a double, plus it's the very camp Charles Gray playing him. The FYEO has the bald head and neckbrace, making him seem more like the Blofeld of the end of OHMSS.

I also love the helicopter scene, and the stunts, and Blofeld's final journey into the chimney!

[ChronoBreak]

FYEO's pretitles, definitely. Even with the corny Blofeld dialogue, I think it's visually and conceptually a better start.

DAF, in my opinion, is astonishingly poorly edited, dubbed, and choreographed. It felt like amateur hour, which surprised me.

I still can't get over the Oriental guy being awkwardly thrown into an object, where his head suddenly ramps up and connects with it, and the "Cai! Cai! Cairo!" dub over his motionless mouth in a close up.

[draxingtonstanley]

As far as tone,DAF has it for me. Connery is menacing and out for revenge,whereas Moore,after a good start,is slapping someone's ill fitting bald wig and asking them if they want to get off. MWTGG's slide whistle is back as 'Blofeld' falls down a chimney stack-the change of tone doesn't work for me. The FYEO pts would have been great without the Blofeld refence IMO. Plus,the rest of the film is overshadowed by the mighty ghost of SPECTRE and the glory days. Kristatos and his ATAC caper seem small beer by comparison.

Edited by draxingtonstanley, 11 February 2007 - 11:39 PM.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

I think I have the solution...DAF should have started with Bond laying flowers at Tracy's gravesite exactly as in FYEO but with his face hidden from the camera as it was Connery's return. Things should proceed the same as in the FYEO PTS until the priest's line about his office needing him to which Bond could say something along the lines of "first, I have some unfinished business to attend to", then cut to the Japanese man being hurled through the paper wall and the rest of the teaser would play as it did in DAF's.

[darkpath]

Agreed that Diamonds Are Forever has the better PTS. I like Bond's ruthlessness.

I do concur; but, I do wish that the whole of DAF had maintained that momentum.

I think I have the solution...DAF should have started with Bond laying flowers at Tracy's gravesite exactly as in FYEO but with his face hidden from the camera as it was Connery's return. Things should proceed the same as in the FYEO PTS until the priest's line about his office needing him to which Bond could say something along the lines of "first, I have some unfinished business to attend to", then cut to the Japanese man being hurled through the paper wall and the rest of the teaser would play as it did in DAF's.

Now that is a truly elegant solution!!! Bravisimo!!!

[SirCliff]

DAF pre-titles are great up until the mud bath scene, then it all nose dives. throwing the guy through the wall, punching tommy cooper (lol) and helping the lady get something off her chest is great gritty stuff then we descend into the stupid mud bath bit with a rubbish blofeld and guards in boiler suits who cant fight....and the moose trap of course.

FYEO is ok nothing more...not the great end to blofeld that he deserves.

But if i had to pick one in its entireity id say.....DAF....but too be honest neither are great pre-titles.

[MarcAngeDraco]

Interesting question...

Personally, I've never really thought of the FYEO PTS as a continuation of the OHMSS storyline. It's not Bond going after Blofeld, it's actually the other way around.

I don't really care for the DAF PTS much at all, so I guess FYEO wins by default. I do love the scene at Tracy's grave, but that's definitely the high point.

[00Twelve]

Good question...a more apt one, perhaps, is the same question approached from the negative. Which is the less effective revenge scene? Though the FYEO sequence is, of course, more entertaining, my personal litmus test is how much vengeance I can see or at least conjecture in Bond under the circumstances. Both are ripe with camp, but...while the helicopter scene carried good suspense (and Moore looked better physically), I thought Connery captured at least some of the malice that Bond should have been exhibiting. But that's really only because he's Connery, and is better than Moore at such by sheer default. I think that if they 1) Made an actual effort at voice dubbing and 2) had Connery play his parting line with malice and dead seriousness, the DAF PTS would definitely have been a satisfying scene. But then, the Whyte House reveal is really where the Bond/Blofeld interaction completely lost its tension and credibility.

[DamnCoffee]

I've always loved the FYEO pts. at least it shows a vunerable Bond.

[doublenoughtspy]

I vote for FYEO as well.

While there is some humor, it isn't over the top.

[Bon-san]

FYEO's pretitles, definitely. Even with the corny Blofeld dialogue, I think it's visually and conceptually a better start.

DAF, in my opinion, is astonishingly poorly edited, dubbed, and choreographed. It felt like amateur hour, which surprised me.

I still can't get over the Oriental guy being awkwardly thrown into an object, where his head suddenly ramps up and connects with it, and the "Cai! Cai! Cairo!" dub over his motionless mouth in a close up.

Definitely agree with all of that. Both are flawed, but FYEO gets the nod from me. I didn't detect a trace of malice in Connery in the DAF pretitles. It certainly would have been great to see, but alas no.

[Judo chop]

FYEO's sequence enhanced with Connery's malice is the way to go.

The grave scene is very touching, but then once he steps into the helicopter it seems as if Bond completely forgets that this wheelchair dude was responsible for Tracey's early grave. It's like two completely separate scenes pre/post helicoptor. Had the emotion carried through the entire PTS, it'd be all the better.

Picking one, FYEO. DAF is just so poorly done top to bottom, I can't vote for it.

[the other fellow]

Good topic PKK.
I would have to say neither.
The revenge aspect really needed to be dealt with in an entire film rather than just in the PTS and they both fail on that account.

[plankattack]

Good topic PKK.
I would have to say neither.
The revenge aspect really needed to be dealt with in an entire film rather than just in the PTS and they both fail on that account.

Agreed. Tracy as a character, as Bond's wife, has always been mishandled by Eon (apart from in OHMSS itself, of course). Like the film itself, Eon always seemed embarrassed and ashamed of it all, completely disregarding the importance of Tracy in terms of the lead character. DAF is unsatisfying in that it really does pay nothing more than lip-service to the notion of avenging her death, and I doubt the Bond of FYEO, even if it's twelve years later, would be cracking jokes when evening the score with his wife's murderer.

The best revenge is LTK, though ultimately the only true catharsis would have been Lazenby's appearance. The unfortunate thing (due to Eon) is that Tracy gets forgotten due to the disowning of OHMSS, Lazenby, yes Hunt too, which happened through the seventies. Almost as if it were some strange Bobby Ewing dream from "Dallas." (I never thought I would reference a 70s soap at CBn. Don't worry, I won't make a habit of it).

[Scottlee]

I prefer the DAF pre-title, even though FYEO is the better overall movie. The DAF one just has a nice gritty punch to it.

[Qwerty]

For Your Eyes Only.

The Diamonds Are Forever pre-title sequence is, as already mentioned in this thread, amateur hour.

The dubbing and editing, for the most part, takes away so much.

[JCRendle]

FYEO, the main reason being that it actually references Tracy. DAF would have worked if OHMSS hadn't happened. I have never thought of DAF as a direct sequel to OHMSS, basically because no mention of Tracy, and Bond doesn't act as if he has just lost the only woman he truly loved. That's it, not because of what actually happens in the scenes, but because DAF doesn't have any mention of Tracy and FYEO has a very strong (grave) reference to Tracy.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

I think I have the solution...DAF should have started with Bond laying flowers at Tracy's gravesite exactly as in FYEO but with his face hidden from the camera as it was Connery's return. Things should proceed the same as in the FYEO PTS until the priest's line about his office needing him to which Bond could say something along the lines of "first, I have some unfinished business to attend to", then cut to the Japanese man being hurled through the paper wall and the rest of the teaser would play as it did in DAF's.

Now that is a truly elegant solution!!! Bravisimo!!!

Good topic PKK.

Thank you, gentlemen.

[Odd Job]

I think I have the solution...DAF should have started with Bond laying flowers at Tracy's gravesite exactly as in FYEO but with his face hidden from the camera as it was Connery's return. Things should proceed the same as in the FYEO PTS until the priest's line about his office needing him to which Bond could say something along the lines of "first, I have some unfinished business to attend to", then cut to the Japanese man being hurled through the paper wall and the rest of the teaser would play as it did in DAF's.

Great idea Prince, perhaps you should try a career in films. You couldn't do any worse than some of the clowns in Hollywood these days!!

Regards

Odd Job

[Safari Suit]

DAF works better as a "revenge" scene. It's not perfect, but we all know many of the reasons why. FYEO is the better PTS overall, though.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

I think I have the solution...DAF should have started with Bond laying flowers at Tracy's gravesite exactly as in FYEO but with his face hidden from the camera as it was Connery's return. Things should proceed the same as in the FYEO PTS until the priest's line about his office needing him to which Bond could say something along the lines of "first, I have some unfinished business to attend to", then cut to the Japanese man being hurled through the paper wall and the rest of the teaser would play as it did in DAF's.

Great idea Prince, perhaps you should try a career in films. You couldn't do any worse than some of the clowns in Hollywood these days!!

Regards

Odd Job

Thank you for your kind words, Odd Job. If only I had the connections and the patience to put up with these Hollywood folks.

DAF works better as a "revenge" scene. It's not perfect, but we all know many of the reasons why.

Agreed. The "revenge against Blofeld" aspect of Bond disappears after DAF's PTS but it carries throughout. Meanwhile, a person who watched FYEO's PTS without any knowledge of the series' history at that point would just assume Bond was being attacked by a baddie with no connection to his visit to his late wife's grave and no real sense of avenging justice from Bond.

[Humphrey Bogart]

IO believe that the FYEO pre-title sequence is better than the DAF pre-title sequence and here's why:

-It has a bald Blofeld
-It references Tracy
-The helicopter scene in London is awesome
-We now know that it's been 12 years since Tracy died, and makes Anya's reference on Tracy's death in TSWLM more believable


Now compare it with the pre-title sequence from DAF:

-It has a fat & almost-grey haired Conenry
-It doesn't reference Tracy, and that it makes us believe whether it continues from YOLT or OHMSS
-The editing is bad (Mr.Hunt, where are you?)
-And most of it was set in Japan, so yeah it was a continuation of YOLT

Verdict: FYEO wins

[Zorin Industries]

Neither. The best moment that conveys the pain and loss is in LICENCE TO KILL when Bond catches DELLA's garter, but wished he hadn't.

In EYES ONLY, Roger Moore saved his emotions for the death of LISL - a far more powerful moment than his Greater London graveyard scene.

[draxingtonstanley]

That's cheating,sorry Zorin. Out the two,DAF wins for me. Technical considerations aside,of course.
It's funnier,and more serious simultaneously. Funnier due to the jump editing that causes the Japanese
gentleman to accelerate into the blinds,and 'C..C..C..Cairo".
More serious because of the menace that a slightly off form Connery exudes.
"Welcome to hell Blofeld" sounds pretty personal to me. He's so obviously out to avenge his
murdered wife that Tracy doesn't need to be referenced directly.
The fact that DAF descends into an (admittedly highly enjoyable)camp romp from thereon in
is another matter.
The FYEO pts has a superb beginning with Bond at Tracy's grave and throws it away.
And bringing in Blofeld,even in such a tongue in cheek and fleeting way,overshadows the rest of the
film. The helicopter stuff is fun,but with a different set up without the Tracy/Blofeld refernce it would have worked better.
IMO.

Edited by draxingtonstanley, 14 February 2007 - 08:55 PM.

[Turn]

DAF -- it's simple and to the point. So what if it makes no reference to Tracy or the events of OHMSS? Do we need to have our hands held to explain this is why Mr. Bond is upset and kicking the hell out of people?

The fact is DAF has a pissed off Bond on a mission to destroy Blofeld. It makes for a good precredits and gives Bond closure He thinks he does so. Bond thinks he has his revenge and when his guard is down when he meets him and the clone in the penthouse, the rage has probably subsided.

And I don't buy the theory that DAF starts in Japan because it continues from YOLT. Nice idea, but very much a stretch.

The only reason FYEO even has the reference to Tracy and to Blofeld is it was written to keep continuity in thinking it would be a new actor as Bond as Moore was holding out. Due to not being able to use Blofeld or SPECTRE as McClory still had the rights to both, he isn't even identified by name and the reference to a 10th anniversary of their last meeting was taken out, making it less interesting right there.

Furthermore, the Blofeld of FYEO isn't all that threatening. A few mild taunts make him seem like a bald version of one of the DAF Blofeld's clones or something. It's treated more comically than anything in DAF's precredits, so where's the payoff?

[Mr_Wint]

The only reason FYEO even has the reference to Tracy and to Blofeld is it was written to keep continuity in thinking it would be a new actor as Bond as Moore was holding out.

I dont think that is the only reason. My theory is that John Glen liked OHMSS and hence the many references to that film; Tracy, Blofeld, "Goodbye Countess" on a beach similar to OHMSS PTS, Draco-Columbo, Piz Gloria - St. Cyril, a long ski-sequence etc.

[Turn]

The only reason FYEO even has the reference to Tracy and to Blofeld is it was written to keep continuity in thinking it would be a new actor as Bond as Moore was holding out.

I dont think that is the only reason. My theory is that John Glen liked OHMSS and hence the many references to that film; Tracy, Blofeld, "Goodbye Countess" on a beach similar to OHMSS PTS, Draco-Columbo, Piz Gloria - St. Cyril, a long ski-sequence etc.

That could play into it, but I am sure the main reason is for continuity's sake. I recall Moore not even being signed until nearly the last minute.