49 replies to this topic

[Dell Deaton]

Wasn't there a female sitting next to Bond when assignments were passed out in The World Is Not Enough? That was so reminiscent of Thunderball for me that I felt certain it was meant to imply a line-up of Double-0s.

[Four Aces]

Well I guess I'm relating this too much to what I see IRL. Too many Valerie Plames being run up the flag pole due to fancy degrees and connections, while unkown guys like Mikey Spann die in the dirt, or don't get the promotions commensurate with the real risks that they take on the job. Same in corporate life. The subtleness of emasculation on the recent Bond films is not lost on me. However, perhaps CR is a departure from what we saw in the Brozzie films.

[bond_girl_double07]

You are both correct. I am clearly jaded by the GEM, but no apologies. I also don't like how the smoking was banned, another PC issue (I am not a smoker, though I do enjoy an occasional cigar and have a nice humidor with a few Habanos in it).

It would be interesting if there were any female 00's, IRL or fiction.

There are a couple of PC issues that I don't particularly enjoy (several of which CR 'fixed':

1. The smoking.. I'm not a smoker either, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see Bond's coworkers (or maybe even M) grabbing a cigar.. it's classy, and like it or not, MI-6, at least in the films, is still a boy's club.

2. The whole "chauvinist dinosaur" mess from GE.. as somebody pointed out in the "women: worthwhile pursuits or disposable pleasures" thread, Bond leads a very dangerous and busy life. If he feels like getting a little (or a lot hehe) of pleasure from women who agree, no harm, no foul I don't see why M would care about that mess anyway.. in CR, she sees his skills and is critical of the aspects of his personality that actually impact the job (not the stuff in his personal life that it wouldn't be logical for her to know/care about).

3. The female M thing.. I'm warming up to it now, but it never made sense to me that M would hate Bond (male or female). You don't leave somebody you hate or distrust on the payroll, and I'm so pleased that CR has Bond and M back to a sort-of friendly agreement. I think for a female M to work, it has to be a non-issue like it is in CR.. She's the boss, he's the agent, gender doesn't really matter (other than the fact that Bond wouldn't say he loved Bernard Lee hehe )


Anyway, my two cents... I love all of the changes to this relationship, and I think the best way to approach some of the pc issues is to just not make a big deal out of it (bravo CR)..

[Four Aces]

...but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see Bond's coworkers (or maybe even M) grabbing a cigar.. it's classy,...,

Hee-hee. You'll have to join Bryce (003) and myself next time we get together for a cigar and martini

...You don't leave somebody you hate or distrust on the payroll...

IRL you do leave them on the payroll, especially if you work for the US Gooberment, or a large public organization. In fact some bosses would rather request a transfer for themselves than fire a bad apple. In some organizations people even quit around a bad apple instead of firing the bad apple. Fear of lawsuits, etc.

Anyway, my two cents... I love all of the changes to this relationship, and I think the best way to approach some of the pc issues is to just not make a big deal out of it (bravo CR)..

Agreed I'm over the GEM. Thanks for the counseling

[bond_girl_double07]

You'll have to join Bryce (003) and myself next time we get together for a cigar and martini

Mmmmm, any time Are you coming to DTBB2, 4 aces? You should I haven't had a cigar in ages, I'll be looking forward to it (I have martinis more regularly than I'd care to admit )

IRL you do leave them on the payroll, especially if you work for the US Gooberment, or a large public organization. In fact some bosses would rather request a transfer for themselves than fire a bad apple. In some organizations people even quit around a bad apple instead of firing the bad apple. Fear of lawsuits, etc.

Ahhh the ol' fear of lawsuit mess.. Agreed for the real world, but can you see the M of CR fearing lawsuits? I think no


I'm way over GE as well, what a nice set of changes the producers have given us

[Four Aces]

You'll have to join Bryce (003) and myself next time we get together for a cigar and martini

Mmmmm, any time Are you coming to DTBB2, 4 aces? You should I haven't had a cigar in ages, I'll be looking forward to it (I have martinis more regularly than I'd care to admit )

I'm not sure yet, though earlier I thought for sure I would be able to attend DTBB2. My travel season kicks in soon, and I don't know if the July dates will dovetail with me being back in the US, or not. I do however always lock in the week that straddles Sep/Oct for a Vegas visit with Lady Four Aces. You'll also see my post count drop off around mid-Feb, as I usually only post a lot during Dec/Jan, and much less when the assignments start rolling in. I think this is the only reason I am tolerated around here - because I'm not always here

Back on topic, yes, if we reboot M, like we rebooted Bond, then all that GEM stuff is water under the bridge

[Publius]

I took it as sarcasm--given that the letter was undoubtedly dry and terse--but with honest gratitude behind it. Despite M's constant chastising of Bond, she does respect and trust him enough to make him a double-oh and equip/support him accordingly, and he knows that.

Basically, nothing more than some subtle humor based on how their relationship was being established in the film. It was probably put in place by Haggis. I liked it.

[DaveBond21]

Well, pretty obviously she's written a terse, probably brief and not very friendly note instructing him of what he's received.

Yes, to me, it was quite obvious that he was being sarcastic.


"I love you too" is quite a common sarcastic response to people being rude, in England, if that helps.

[dinovelvet]

Cut the scene? So you want his car, his gun and the defibrilator to just magically appear later in the film?

Jeez, no need to bite my head off. An establishing shot of Bond's car would have sufficed. As for Bond's gun magically appearing, since when (DR.NO excepted) do we need a scene showing Bond collecting a gun? He's Bond, he carries a gun. There isn't any explanation for his gun appearing on the bathroom floor in the PTS, the second gun he's carrying that he uses to shoot Molloka, or the rifle he shoots Mr. White with. Bond has a gun when its needed. As for the defibrilator, I don't think it added anything just to briefly show it in advance (besides, did anyone know what it was the first time we briefly glimpse it in that first scene in the car?).
I appreciate people's responses re: the "I love you too, M" line. However I think the "bitch is dead" phone conversation at the end shows M's newfound respect for Bond much better. I still think the scene could be omitted and nothing would be lost. Sorry if that offends anyone

[JCRendle]

You have to think that when he went into the casino he went through a metal detector.

[Dell Deaton]

Cut the scene? So you want his car, his gun and the defibrilator to just magically appear later in the film?

... I appreciate people's responses re: the "I love you too, M" line. However I think the "bitch is dead" phone conversation at the end shows M's newfound respect for Bond much better. I still think the scene could be omitted and nothing would be lost. Sorry if that offends anyone

Okay, I'm up for a discussion of this (tho' I'm confident it's probably been covered quite well here already).

Seemed to me from the novel that this line was clear, that it said something about how Bond was transformed and was true to how he felt. But in the film, it felt foggy to me. And since seeing the film, I've read in several accounts that M's "correction" of 007 here is indication that Vesper was good, acting previously only to his good.

My view is that she made it possible to "Le Chiffre" James Bond. And that doesn't sit well w/ me.

That said-- anyone here open to bringing me up to speed on the current CBn thinking on the matter?

Thanks!

[Turn]

Cut the scene? So you want his car, his gun and the defibrilator to just magically appear later in the film?

... I appreciate people's responses re: the "I love you too, M" line. However I think the "bitch is dead" phone conversation at the end shows M's newfound respect for Bond much better. I still think the scene could be omitted and nothing would be lost. Sorry if that offends anyone

Okay, I'm up for a discussion of this (tho' I'm confident it's probably been covered quite well here already).

Seemed to me from the novel that this line was clear, that it said something about how Bond was transformed and was true to how he felt. But in the film, it felt foggy to me. And since seeing the film, I've read in several accounts that M's "correction" of 007 here is indication that Vesper was good, acting previously only to his good.

My view is that she made it possible to "Le Chiffre" James Bond. And that doesn't sit well w/ me.

That said-- anyone here open to bringing me up to speed on the current CBn thinking on the matter?

Thanks!

This brings up something that occurred to me about the Dench M. The last three movies have had her entrusting females who doublecross her and Bond. Tells me she's a lousy judge of character, while going out of her way to insult Bond and take him to task for his methods, although he gets the results that actually save her and save face for the department.

[Publius]

This brings up something that occurred to me about the Dench M. The last three movies have had her entrusting females who doublecross her and Bond. Tells me she's a lousy judge of character, while going out of her way to insult Bond and take him to task for his methods, although he gets the results that actually save her and save face for the department.

Was M even the one who sent Vesper, though? I'd think the Treasury was responsible. Besides, she was only a one-time, blackmailed double agent, which I can easily believe was enough to stay under their radar, as opposed to someone with dubious connections and a running history as a double (Miranda Frost).

[Dell Deaton]

This brings up something that occurred to me about the Dench M. The last three movies have had her entrusting females who doublecross her and Bond. Tells me she's a lousy judge of character, while going out of her way to insult Bond and take him to task for his methods, although he gets the results that actually save her and save face for the department.

Was M even the one who sent Vesper, though? I'd think the Treasury was responsible. Besides, she was only a one-time, blackmailed double agent, which I can easily believe was enough to stay under their radar, as opposed to someone with dubious connections and a running history as a double (Miranda Frost).

Some times "one time" is all you get to judge character. And, as a leader, you gotta be right. Particularly so at MI6, where lives are on the line, national security (not to mention world domination) hanging in the balance.

Perhaps this is my own issue w/ organizations and authority (legitimate, versus rise to position by a** kissing and politics), but I really connected w/ that scene in Licence to Kill where Bond was "brought in" and called on the carpet for going off-plan. And, um, what, exactly was he doing? Oh, yeah, now I remember: Stepping up to the plate on behalf of his friend (who "disagreed w/ something that ate him"). So 007 wasn't exactly following orders, had a history of invariably delivering, was ultimately loyal - and "his co-workers" shoot at him.

[Four Aces]

...
Perhaps this is my own issue w/ organizations and authority (legitimate, versus rise to position by a** kissing and politics), but I really connected w/ that scene in Licence to Kill where Bond was "brought in" and called on the carpet for going off-plan. And, um, what, exactly was he doing? Oh, yeah, now I remember: Stepping up to the plate on behalf of his friend (who "disagreed w/ something that ate him"). So 007 wasn't exactly following orders, had a history of invariably delivering, was ultimately loyal - and "his co-workers" shoot at him.

[/color][/font]

Dude you must be a Libertarian like me. This is why I choose not to work directly for any organization. They can just pay my day rate and save the career management nonsense.

Good post. Check your star rating

[Dell Deaton]

...
Perhaps this is my own issue w/ organizations and authority (legitimate, versus rise to position by a** kissing and politics), ... was ultimately loyal - and "his co-workers" shoot at him.

Dude you must be a Libertarian like me. This is why I choose not to work directly for any organization. They can just pay my day rate and save the career management nonsense.

Good post. Check your star rating

I suspect so. Very much so....

Thank you for the "stars." (As you can see, I'm still feeling my way around Forum "technology," so I'm looking forward to better understanding how I can use those features myself in the near future.)

[Publius]

Some times "one time" is all you get to judge character. And, as a leader, you gotta be right. Particularly so at MI6, where lives are on the line, national security (not to mention world domination) hanging in the balance.

True, but the one time in question is the Casino Royale mission itself. If she had no prior history with The Organization (or anyone similar), I can easily see it being possible that they have little or no way of knowing.

So 007 wasn't exactly following orders, had a history of invariably delivering, was ultimately loyal - and "his co-workers" shoot at him.

I can't remember if we have any indication one way or the other, but I always thought those were actually American agents, justifiably pissed off about his antics (although he was just as justified in what he was doing).

[Dell Deaton]

Some times "one time" is all you get to judge character. And, as a leader, you gotta be right. Particularly so at MI6, where lives are on the line, national security (not to mention world domination) hanging in the balance.

True, but the one time in question is the Casino Royale mission itself. If she had no prior history with The Organization (or anyone similar), I can easily see it being possible that they have little or no way of knowing.

So 007 wasn't exactly following orders, had a history of invariably delivering, was ultimately loyal - and "his co-workers" shoot at him.

I can't remember if we have any indication one way or the other, but I always thought those were actually American agents, justifiably pissed off about his antics (although he was just as justified in what he was doing).

Point #1. I dunno. I got the impression that Vesper had some tenure w/ MI6, in that she was not just trusted w/ such a large amount of money, but also put in a position to oversee and make decisions on Bond's handling of it. And that in the face of what was at risk here (as she, herself, lectures him on the train).

Point #2. You are probably right here. As I may have implied in my Post above, this is more likely a projection of my own issues regarding organizational loyalty and trouble w/ authority figures.

[Nicolas Suszczyk]

Does M says Bond "I love you, 007" in the letter? remember... he says "I love you TOO, M"

[Blonde Bond]

I have to agree with some others before me.

The way I , too, saw it, was that after all those usual "I dont think you're ready for the job", "You're a thug with a licence to kill" speeches, and planting a tracker under Bond's skin, he must have felt appreciated when his boss equipped him with a spankin new car, gun and few 'might-come-handy' tools.

In that situation, I too, would say "I love you too". I thought it was a natural reaction and in my eyes benefitted their growing 'boss-employee' relationship for the future films.

And I dont think the note said "I love you Bond". More or less it could hsve been saying something along the lines "Return all the equipment in brand condition" (which we know, he wont.Not the car at least) or "Come home safe, 007"