66 replies to this topic

[Zorin Industries]

Bearing in mind the huge gay following for DOCTOR WHO (one that has reached its natural conclusion with Russell T Davies superb handling of the franchise and the gay background of TORCHWOOD's CAPTAIN JACK), I was wondering what a gay reaction is to Bond....?

It is something I have pondered before, but only now do we have a lead actor as Bond who is the first one to really appeal to the gay AND straight community. Yes, Roger Moore was quite cute in LIVE AND LET DIE in a preppy gent-abroad way, but no Bond actor has really ticked everyone's boxes in the way Daniel Craig now has. Connery is too masculine, Dalton is too benevolent and Brosnan is too Aaron Spelling.

Not that it's all about the lead actor. Bond films had a gay sensibility for a long time. It's not deliberate granted, but it is certainly there in all sorts of ways.

For example, the characterisation - think ROSA KLEBB, OCTOPUSSY (the biggest fag-hag going and the only Bond girl who would turn this writer at the drop of a aquatic-themed dressing gown...!), BLOFELD (too much sexual repression and stroking the wrong sort of pussy...), MR WYNT and MR KIDD (okay, that's too obvious) and - this may cause upset - even FRANZ SANCHEZ and LE CHIFFRE. Mads Mikkelsen said a few months back that there is a homosexual undercurrent to his CASINO ROYALE villain. It's there if you see it, it's not there if you don't. LE CHIFFRE has no feelings or loyalty for VALLENKA and cannot keep his eyes of BOND in the torture scene. And no straight man would have a gold-embossed ventilin inhaler! FRANZ SANCHEZ too would also worry the locker room boys. He has far too much concern and affection for DARIO (Benecio Del Toro). And Charles Gray's BLOFELD is so marinated in 'camp' he resorts to a Las Vegas drag floorshow!

Seriously though, there are other gay elements that have been running through the Bond series for years. Think Ken Adam's sets. There is not a too-cool-for-school interior designer out there on the gay - AND straight circuit - who has not been influenced by the minimalistic and triangular work of Adam. Maurice Binder's work - and Danny Kleinman's to a degree - are so gay that pink bands such as The Scissor Sisters are clambering to reference the visual imagery left, right and centre (check out the cracking video for the Scissor Sisters new track 'The Land Of A Thousand Words').

Furthermore, the majority of Bond title tracks have a torch-song tragedy to them that would not be out of place at a Judy Garland tribute gig. And do I need to mention Ms Monte Carlo herself, Shirley Bassey?!

Tonally, DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN, MOONRAKER, OCTOPUSSY, THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH and even DIE ANOTHER DAY are very camp if your definition of the phrase is bombastic, larger than life, visually resplendent and firing that knowing wink at the audience that you are aware of the sheer indulgence of it all.

CASINO ROYALE too is heavily aware of the wider backgrounds of the audience out there - including its gay spectatorship. The marketing strategy of Craig's debut seemed very different to the Gillette-infused masculinity of Brosnan's efforts. Daniel Craig was always a gay pin-up (LOVE IS THE DEVIL, THE MOTHER and TOMB RAIDER gave him the 'certificate' long ago...). He was all over the gay press last year with a profusion I have not seen with any former 007. ROYALE istelf is quite a metrosexual Bond film - what with Daniel Craig ticking everyone's boxes and LE CHIFFRE's enigmatic sexuality.

A gay audience respects and demands quality (which is maybe a reason why Craig and his acting abilities have been noticed - that and his increasingly illegal torso!). Bond films are nothing if not value for money. Every penny of the budget is up there on the screen. That in itself is quite a gay trait - i.e. put on a show, but do it well and in a style that is a bit different and a tad more contemporary than before.

But what does everyone else think? I'm not trying to start a "if you're gay you'll notice things others don't" thread. I simply feel it's an interesting discussion point. How does Bond appeal to his gay fans? Send me a personal response if you don't want to inadvertently 'out' yourself on these threads.

I think there's an interesting, yet fun book here and one as a writer and Bond fan I might look into one day. Not that any responses to this thread will be included. I'm just throwing Connery's blue towelling all-in-one GOLDFINGER swimsuit out onto the cBn waters and seeing if it floats.... (and there's nothing straight about 'that look', believe me!!).

[Jim]

The Broccolis will want to earn anyone's money.

There are patently characters within the films who are intended or alluded to as homosexual but the issue about Mr Craig's fanbase appears to be a different point, unless it's credible to assert that his James Bond has undercurrents/overcurrents etc.

My brother is "gay". How does he view James Bond? On television, like everyone else.

Bond does appear to be a very camp thing at all times but whether it then teeters into "gay" is, probably, another issue as well.

[Zorin Industries]

The Broccolis will want to earn anyone's money.

There are patently characters within the films who are intended or alluded to as homosexual but the issue about Mr Craig's fanbase appears to be a different point, unless it's credible to assert that his James Bond has undercurrents/overcurrents etc.

My brother is "gay". How does he view James Bond? On television, like everyone else.

Bond does appear to be a very camp thing at all times but whether it then teeters into "gay" is, probably, another issue as well.

The films have often exude a gay sensibility (not intentionally by any stretch). My point is less about the gay characters in the series and more about that gay sensibility and interest which Daniel Craig's casting has seriously propelled / intensified - but which was always there in some shape or form.

And relax. James Bond is still very much a ladies man with no "undercurrents / overcurrents" of being a bit - as your quotation marks put it - "gay". My query is just one of interest. I'm not trying to re-write cinematic history.

[Jim]

The Broccolis will want to earn anyone's money.

There are patently characters within the films who are intended or alluded to as homosexual but the issue about Mr Craig's fanbase appears to be a different point, unless it's credible to assert that his James Bond has undercurrents/overcurrents etc.

My brother is "gay". How does he view James Bond? On television, like everyone else.

Bond does appear to be a very camp thing at all times but whether it then teeters into "gay" is, probably, another issue as well.

The films have often exude a gay sensibility (not intentionally by any stretch). My point is less about the gay characters in the series and more about that gay sensibility and interest which Daniel Craig's casting has seriously propelled / intensified - but which was always there in some shape or form.

And relax. James Bond is still very much a ladies man with no "undercurrents / overcurrents" of being a bit - as your quotation marks put it - "gay". My query is just one of interest. I'm not trying to re-write cinematic history.

Ah, I get you now. Interesting.

[Zorin Industries]

The Broccolis will want to earn anyone's money.

There are patently characters within the films who are intended or alluded to as homosexual but the issue about Mr Craig's fanbase appears to be a different point, unless it's credible to assert that his James Bond has undercurrents/overcurrents etc.

My brother is "gay". How does he view James Bond? On television, like everyone else.

Bond does appear to be a very camp thing at all times but whether it then teeters into "gay" is, probably, another issue as well.

The films have often exude a gay sensibility (not intentionally by any stretch). My point is less about the gay characters in the series and more about that gay sensibility and interest which Daniel Craig's casting has seriously propelled / intensified - but which was always there in some shape or form.

And relax. James Bond is still very much a ladies man with no "undercurrents / overcurrents" of being a bit - as your quotation marks put it - "gay". My query is just one of interest. I'm not trying to re-write cinematic history.

Ah, I get you now. Interesting.

No worries...

[marktmurphy]

Bond does appear to be a very camp thing at all times but whether it then teeters into "gay" is, probably, another issue as well.

I'd be tempted just to say 'Shirley Bassey' in reply to that.
I'd say Bond is very gay at times- conspicuously or perhaps just stereotypically more so than Doctor Who: I'm still scratching my head as to why that attracts such a big gay following.


Very good points about Le Chiffre's sexuality- the torture bit is pretty blatant but I hadn't thought about his non-reaction to Valenka before.

[Zorin Industries]

Bond does appear to be a very camp thing at all times but whether it then teeters into "gay" is, probably, another issue as well.

I'd be tempted just to say 'Shirley Bassey' in reply to that.
I'd say Bond is very gay at times- conspicuously or perhaps just stereotypically more so than Doctor Who: I'm still scratching my head as to why that attracts such a big gay following.

Very good points about Le Chiffre's sexuality- the torture bit is pretty blatant but I hadn't thought about his non-reaction to Valenka before.

The gay following for DOCTOR WHO is odd, but not I suppose when you think of the sexual ambiguity of the character, the outrageous-ness of the production design pre Russell T Davies and the infinite nature of the storylines. I suppose Bond has that too, but less so.

Although we - and I include myself here - should be careful not to confuse "camp" for "gay". They are often seen as two sides of the same coin, but - for example, the 1960's BATMAN TV series was VERY camp, but never gay. There is a difference. "Camp" is a knowing wink at the audience that you're crap (!).

[Loomis]

How is Octopussy "the biggest fag-hag going"? Granted, she hangs around with Kamal, who does come off as though he may be a little bit, well, you know, but other than that....

[Zorin Industries]

How is Octopussy "the biggest fag-hag going"? Granted, she hangs around with Kamal, who does come off as though he may be a little bit, well, you know, but other than that....

OCTOPUSSY the character screams fag-hag! Come on - a woman clearly in her early forties who wishes she wasn't? A woman with a benevolent, understanding nature who takes in waifs and strays? A woman with major investments in the entertainment industry who thinks nothing of setting an army of leotard-clad lovelies upon the unsuspecting men of India?!!

[Santa]

Sounds like you're describing me but it doesn't necessarily make me a fag hag.

[mccartney007]

I really want to contribute to this thread, but I find it difficult to do so when it seems like all I'd be doing is trying to wade through the gay stereotypes only to reach a conclusion that's been included in the original post. That is, of course, if you go looking for it you'll probably find it.

I guess the appeal for ANYONE whether gay, bi, straight, whatever of James Bond is in the art of living. I think a good majority of people want to live the high life with fancy cars, nice clothes and jet set around the world with a beautiful babe/dude or whatever. I really don't think the gay audience enjoys James Bond films for vastly different reasons from those of a straight audience. Although, I am sure there is a whole new gay audience of "James Bond fans" simply because of Danny Craig, just as there was a whole heap of women who suddenly became "James Bond fans" once Pierce Brosnan signed on to the role.

[Zorin Industries]

Sounds like you're describing me but it doesn't necessarily make me a fag hag.

And do you have an aquatic themed dressing gown...?!! I'm being very general I know with an ounce of flippancy. And what are your "investments in the entertainment industry"?!

[SilencedPPK]

I've always known about some of the "gay" suggestions in some of the movies, but I never completely went out of my way to really recognize those things. I can understand the Le Chiffre thing. I think it works perfectly for the role. Especially when he notices that he's changed his shirt, and also in the torture scene when he comments on his body. Even when he couldn't get his eyes off of him. I could note a bit of jealousy when Bond went over to kiss Vesper. You could see it in Le Chiffre's eyes that he wanted to be Vesper, just for a moment!

[dinovelvet]

How is Octopussy "the biggest fag-hag going"? Granted, she hangs around with Kamal, who does come off as though he may be a little bit, well, you know, but other than that....

OCTOPUSSY the character screams fag-hag! Come on - a woman clearly in her early forties who wishes she wasn't? A woman with a benevolent, understanding nature who takes in waifs and strays? A woman with major investments in the entertainment industry who thinks nothing of setting an army of leotard-clad lovelies upon the unsuspecting men of India?!!

Hmm, I could buy that Octopussy is a lesbian; after all, she resides on "an island populated exclusively by women", and her, er "companions" dress either in tight spandex or bikinis. Of course it takes a real man like Roger Moore to bring her back to the straight and narrow.

[Zorin Industries]

I am sure there is a whole new gay audience of "James Bond fans" simply because of Danny Craig, just as there was a whole heap of women who suddenly became "James Bond fans" once Pierce Brosnan signed on to the role.

Well it's this new audience for Craig I want to hear from. Good point about Brosnan. He was very much the housewives favourite and gay fans tend to steer well clear from anything your Mum might like. Brosnan and indeed all the Bond actors pre-Craig are like family members. You can't p

[Loomis]

How is Octopussy "the biggest fag-hag going"? Granted, she hangs around with Kamal, who does come off as though he may be a little bit, well, you know, but other than that....

OCTOPUSSY the character screams fag-hag! Come on - a woman clearly in her early forties who wishes she wasn't? A woman with a benevolent, understanding nature who takes in waifs and strays? A woman with major investments in the entertainment industry who thinks nothing of setting an army of leotard-clad lovelies upon the unsuspecting men of India?!!

Octopussy a fag-hag? How very dare you! I can't believe it, I won't believe it! No, sir, never - both character and film are as straight as a dye!

However, you may be interested (I wish) in my gay reading of GOLDENEYE, as posted way back on another thread:

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that there's a tremendous gay subtext to GOLDENEYE (of a kind not found in any other Bond flick).

Virtually all the characters seem at least potentially queer: Natalya appears uncertain about her sexuality, shying away from Boris' innuendo and sneering at "boys with toys"; Xenia is clearly a butch lesbian; Bond behaves as though he's lost his lover rather than his best friend; and Boris discovers his true orientation midway through the picture when he sides with Trevelyan. Oh, yes, and if the fastidious, lisping Ourumov isn't homosexual I don't know who is!

Really, the only character who seems positively, definitely straight is Wade.... and even then 007 forces him to bare his bottom.

I'd be interested in reading gay CBners' views on GOLDENEYE. Or maybe zencat could explore this issue further - he's good at subtexts.

It's strange, is it not, that GOLDENEYE, alone among the Bond films, tries to sell us the idea that the most important relationship in the life of the supposedly great heterosexual seducer 007 was not with a woman (Tracy is not mentioned in this, Brosnan's debut outing) but with a man, 006.

Moreover, Bond is depicted as a chap whose relationships with women are highly dysfunctional. Throughout the film, he is criticised and belittled by members of the opposite sex, to a far greater extent than in any other entry in the series. Judi Dench's M dismisses him as a "sexist" and a "misogynist", while Samantha Bond's Moneypenny throws at him a number of stinging putdowns hardly typical of the character. Xenia casts jokey doubt on his sexual prowess; and Natalya lambasts his attitude to relationships. There is even a female psychologist who has plenty of less-than-complimentary things to say about 007's brand of masculinity.

But Bond is hardly alone: straight relationships get a rough ride throughout GOLDENEYE, with quite a few characters found wanting. Wade, we are told, has made a hash of two marriages and has already embarked on his third. Zukovsky yells at his girlfriend and seems to prefer engaging in "man talk" with Bond (and with male underlings huddled around). The admiral finds himself unable to perform with Xenia and literally dies on the job, while Boris "wouldn't know woman if one came up and sat on his head". There is even animosity between M and Bill Tanner. The sexes really don't get on in GOLDENEYE.

Or am I just reading way too much into the movie?

[stamper]

I think a gay view of James Bond is that one would want to . Is there really anything else ?

[marktmurphy]

The gay following for DOCTOR WHO is odd, but not I suppose when you think of the sexual ambiguity of the character, the outrageous-ness of the production design pre Russell T Davies and the infinite nature of the storylines. I suppose Bond has that too, but less so.

Not sure why an 'infinite nature' would attract a gay crowd particularly. And the production design was never that outrageous; nothing much in the way of what's usually termed gay (of course there'll be exceptions- it's difficult to not find them to any rule when you're talking about 26 years of one show!). And again, sexual ambiguity or being an outsider isn't enough of a reason- he's practically the same character as Sherlock Holmes and he doesn't seem to have as a big a gay following.
I'm not saying that you're wrong at all- just that I haven't seen an explanation yet for it that I can say wraps it all up. Odd one.

Although we - and I include myself here - should be careful not to confuse "camp" for "gay". They are often seen as two sides of the same coin, but - for example, the 1960's BATMAN TV series was VERY camp, but never gay. There is a difference. "Camp" is a knowing wink at the audience that you're crap (!).

Oh I dunno- it is that sometimes, but the Roger Bond films were very camp and never (depending on where you're coming from!) crap! In fact, pretty much all Bond films are camp in varying degrees with all the winking at the audience- you could say even the 'shaken or stirred' line from CR shows a bit of camp.
Funny how some Bond fans hate to admit this- I had a long argument with one on another forum because he hated the idea that it's not all real and that sometimes the characters in a film know they're in a film because we're all grown-up enough to take it. Needless to say the 'continuity problems' with the reboot nearly blew his head off!

As for camp not necessarily being gay- you're right of course. Which again shows that pinning something down as being gay is, as in the case of Dr Who, extremely hard to pin down!

[Loomis]

Funny how some Bond fans hate to admit this- I had a long argument with one on another forum because he hated the idea that it's not all real and that sometimes the characters in a film know they're in a film because we're all grown-up enough to take it. Needless to say the 'continuity problems' with the reboot nearly blew his head off!

Just try getting Bond fans started on the idea that "James Bond" is just a codename and that the Eon series is actually about the adventures of six different agents.

[marktmurphy]

I've always known about some of the "gay" suggestions in some of the movies, but I never completely went out of my way to really recognize those things. I can understand the Le Chiffre thing. I think it works perfectly for the role. Especially when he notices that he's changed his shirt, and also in the torture scene when he comments on his body. Even when he couldn't get his eyes off of him. I could note a bit of jealousy when Bond went over to kiss Vesper. You could see it in Le Chiffre's eyes that he wanted to be Vesper, just for a moment!

That's great stuff- I'm sure you're right; I want to watch it again now!
Of course this all helps greatly- Le Chiffre is unique among all the Bond villains in that Bond has the upper hand on him right from the start; it's only at the torture scene that he gains any power over Bond and it's telling that he does it in such a sexual manner. He's a creepy and dangerous one, and no mistake. In this aspect, casting him closer to Bond's age makes much more sense than a 'father figure'; he's on the same sexual level as Bond and wants him. Is the torture the only way he can 'have' him?

Funny how some Bond fans hate to admit this- I had a long argument with one on another forum because he hated the idea that it's not all real and that sometimes the characters in a film know they're in a film because we're all grown-up enough to take it. Needless to say the 'continuity problems' with the reboot nearly blew his head off!

Just try getting Bond fans started on the idea that "James Bond" is just a codename and that the Eon series is actually about the adventures of six different agents.

Well, because it's patently bollocks!
As I said, I think we're all grown-up enough to know that's it's just a bunch of not-terribly-interconnected films.

[mccartney007]

[quote name='Zorin Industries' post='682591' date='6 January 2007 - 12:52'][quote name='mccartney007' post='682557' date='6 January 2007 - 18:52']I am sure there is a whole new gay audience of "James Bond fans" simply because of Danny Craig, just as there was a whole heap of women who suddenly became "James Bond fans" once Pierce Brosnan signed on to the role.[/quote]

Well it's this new audience for Craig I want to hear from. Good point about Brosnan. He was very much the housewives favourite and gay fans tend to steer well clear from anything your Mum might like. Brosnan and indeed all the Bond actors pre-Craig are like family members. You can't p

[ACE]

Would the [insert community of choice] community view Bond films any differently than the mainstream?

I tend to think Bond films become camp in retrospect. At the time of, er, release (sorry), they tend to be viewed as modern and of their day.

Is Casino Royale camp? Not for my reading but looking at this thread, I can see the stuff in there. I know Mad Mikkelson has stated that he wanted to put some ambiguity in the torture scene but it is more painful than sexual. Even in the novel. But I guess the basic premise has connotations.

I know gay Bond fans, female Bond fans, various ethnic Bond fans and international Bond fans and they all rarely bring their "community" into the picture. Even just Fan Bond Fans can rarely agree on what and who their Bond is. While interesting, I tend to think questions like this are always a bit reductive.

[mccartney007]

Would the [insert community of choice] community view Bond films any differently than the mainstream?

I tend to think Bond films become camp in retrospect. At the time of, er, release (sorry), they tend to be viewed as modern and of their day.

Is Casino Royale camp? Not for my reading but looking at this thread, I can see the stuff in there. I know Mad Mikkelson has stated that he wanted to put some ambiguity in the torture scene but it is more painful than sexual. Even in the novel. But I guess the basic premise has connotations.

I know gay Bond fans, female Bond fans, various ethnic Bond fans and international Bond fans and they all rarely bring their "community" into the picture. Even just Fan Bond Fans can rarely agree on what and who their Bond is. While interesting, I tend to think questions like this are always a bit reductive.

Well put.

[007Travis]

I really want to contribute to this thread, but I find it difficult to do so when it seems like all I'd be doing is trying to wade through the gay stereotypes only to reach a conclusion that's been included in the original post. That is, of course, if you go looking for it you'll probably find it.

I guess the appeal for ANYONE whether gay, bi, straight, whatever of James Bond is in the art of living. I think a good majority of people want to live the high life with fancy cars, nice clothes and jet set around the world with a beautiful babe/dude or whatever. I really don't think the gay audience enjoys James Bond films for vastly different reasons from those of a straight audience. Although, I am sure there is a whole new gay audience of "James Bond fans" simply because of Danny Craig, just as there was a whole heap of women who suddenly became "James Bond fans" once Pierce Brosnan signed on to the role.

I agree with Jordan on this. I first enjoyed James Bond films when I was 10 and saw The Living Daylights in the theater. At 10 I didn't associate myself with any "community." Like Jordan said I don't enjoy the films for any different reasons than someone straight. They are a great form of entertainment and enjoy them for that!

[Publius]

FRANZ SANCHEZ too would also worry the locker room boys. He has far too much concern and affection for DARIO (Benecio Del Toro).

I've seen this one mentioned before, but I really don't see it. In Hispanic cultures, it's perfectly natural (indeed, possibly even the norm) to greet a close friend with a platonic kiss on the cheek and a warm embrace. I'd say we're the ethnicity with the most emphasis on brotherhood, even outside of blood relation, and frequent pats on the back and the like are just part of that.

Now Perez, Mr. "what about the money, patron?" himself, is another story entirely. He has some very effeminate mannerisms that I think are intentionally ambiguous. Then again, you might still be on to something with Sanchez if any similarities to the literary Scaramanga, who I've heard is of a questionable persuasion, were also purposefully made.

[bill007]

I like my sex like I like my bourbon..straight. However, I must say, Zorin Industries, I never really thought of so much gay-ity in Bond films as you have brought to light.

Yes, Mr. Wynt and Mr. Kidd were obvious. Even Kamal Khan had a certain feminine twist to his role.

All these other points you bring up, well, I am now enlightened. I've always said I learn something new everyday here at CBn, that holds true.

Silly me, and I thought 007 movies were for closet secret agents.

[Safari Suit]

"The Man With The Golden Gun" (the theme song) is said to have a gay following because of it's "hilarious" Gun/penis "shooting" lyrics. However, it has been said by Lulu herself, so I'm not sure if I believe it.

Max Zorin?

[marktmurphy]

I tend to think Bond films become camp in retrospect. At the time of, er, release (sorry), they tend to be viewed as modern and of their day.

No- that would be kitsch- something which is entertainingly out of date. Camp is how you play something, and the Bond films have always been camp, right from their day of release thanks to the general wink-at-the-audience aspects of them.

[Loomis]

I can't think of any camp aspects of CASINO ROYALE other than Dryden (and I'm using the word "camp" in the sense of "overly theatrical" rather than "gay", BTW), although I'm sure there are many.

[marktmurphy]

There are many aspects to being camp, though. You just have to be tongue-in-cheek to be fairly camp, and CR's playing with the audience's expectations of Bond in a way the characters couldn't know about (the Martini line, as I mentioned) can be seen as lightly camp.