85 replies to this topic

[Mister Asterix]

And while there's a great deal of Flemming in Casino Royale, there's also a great deal that's not.

It's Fleming. One "m"

*Vanna turns the letters*

Yes, you've won a brand new car!

[mra]An extra

[Scottlee]

The only part that felt Brosnan-ish to me was when all that machine gun fire was going off in the Venetian building at the end. Everything was moving so quickly I could barely tell where everybody was in relation to each other, kind of like on Carver's stealth boat for example. Apart from that though, this film was massively distinguishable from any Brosnan film.

[Judo chop]

The only part that felt Brosnan-ish to me was when all that machine gun fire was going off in the Venetian building at the end. Everything was moving so quickly I could barely tell where everybody was in relation to each other, kind of like on Carver's stealth boat for example. Apart from that though, this film was massively distinguishable from any Brosnan film.

Very agreed. This sequence (aside from the touching drowning scenes) is ripped right out of the Brosnan finale playbook.

[Harmsway]

The only part that felt Brosnan-ish to me was when all that machine gun fire was going off in the Venetian building at the end. Everything was moving so quickly I could barely tell where everybody was in relation to each other, kind of like on Carver's stealth boat for example. Apart from that though, this film was massively distinguishable from any Brosnan film.

Very agreed. This sequence (aside from the touching drowning scenes) is ripped right out of the Brosnan finale playbook.

I didn't think so - the fight was very low-key, very close-quarters, and pretty brutal. The only Brosnan-like thing about it was the use of machine guns, but otherwise it was very different in tone and style (Bond electrocutes a guy and shoots one in the eye with a nail gun? YIKES).

[Judo chop]

The only part that felt Brosnan-ish to me was when all that machine gun fire was going off in the Venetian building at the end. Everything was moving so quickly I could barely tell where everybody was in relation to each other, kind of like on Carver's stealth boat for example. Apart from that though, this film was massively distinguishable from any Brosnan film.

Very agreed. This sequence (aside from the touching drowning scenes) is ripped right out of the Brosnan finale playbook.

I didn't think so - the fight was very low-key, very close-quarters, and pretty brutal. The only Brosnan-like thing about it was the use of machine guns, but otherwise it was very different in tone and style (Bond electrocutes a guy and shoots one in the eye with a nail gun? YIKES).

I think the brutality comes only from the fact that it's Craig. Pierce going through the exact same motions wouldn't pack the same punch, so to speak. Craig pulls a nail from his shoulder and looks pissed about it; this I believe. Brosnan doing the same thing... puh-lease.

But the overall feel of the scene I think is very much in the same vein as a Brosnan finale, esp. the blowing up of the floating supports to bring the building down. The cuts back and forth to the crowd looking on in wonder. Bond making his way up the stairs and down the stairs; I don't know... it's all kinda video-gamey in the same way a Brosnan film works.

[JimmyBond]

Everything was moving so quickly I could barely tell where everybody was in relation to each other, kind of like on Carver's stealth boat for example.

I'll agree to that. After my first viewing of TND, I couldnt remember what happend in the finale except that Bond used two guns at once (for some reason that was a big deal for me back then). Upon repeated viewings of TND I've come to enjoy the finale more, something I'm sure will happen with CR as well.

[stamper]

When was the last time you saw Borenesnan with scars on his knuckles because he just got into a fight with two guys ? When was the last time you saw Brozza pull out a nail from his shoulder ? When was the last time you saw Brozrnananena shooting someone in the eye with a nail gun ? When was the last Bordersnan stopped after killing a guy to comtemplate what he has just done ? Apart from Thomas Crown Affair and Tailor of Panama, both films where Brosnan was more Bondish than he ever was in any Bond (thought not by his fault).

[Publius]

The only part that felt Brosnan-ish to me was when all that machine gun fire was going off in the Venetian building at the end. Everything was moving so quickly I could barely tell where everybody was in relation to each other, kind of like on Carver's stealth boat for example. Apart from that though, this film was massively distinguishable from any Brosnan film.

Very agreed. This sequence (aside from the touching drowning scenes) is ripped right out of the Brosnan finale playbook.

And there's nothing wrong with that in my book. Between the brutality of the sequence and Craig's physicality and acting prowess, it's elevated above what might otherwise have become dull or a waste of time. And I had no trouble following it (then again, I've seen so many action movies, I rarely have that problem).

[Icebreaker]

But argue that CR is less serious than anything post '69, and I'm afraid you'll just look silly.

Don't forget LTK.

But even then, Casino Royale is by far the most serious Bond film, because the film itself takes itself seriously. That's something we have not experienced in a Bond film before.


-mattthew

[Willowhugger]

It's not very good manners to insult someone who's just trying to be helpful. Believe me, I could have been an in my reply but I chose to treat you with civility. Sorry to see I was mistaken.

I was making a crack about correcting grammer publicaly. While I can understand your intentions to be good, I would have appreciated it done privately. It was my mistake but assuming a joking response to that is insulting is overly sensetive and frankly a bit silly.

I apologize if my response offended you but I think its rather funny.

Edited by Willowhugger, 14 December 2006 - 10:56 AM.

[Willowhugger]

Quite laughable this comment "while there is a great deal of Flemming in Casino Royale, there's also a great deal that's not". Give detailed examples, those types of sweeping generalisations sound great until you have to back them up with proof.

You certainly laugh at a great deal. :-)

1. Bond's background into joining the OO section is covered in both the novel and film. And one kill is easier than the other.

By this sort of statement, we can suggest Franz Sanchez is based on Fransico Scaramanga (a rather ripped to shreds theory of mine) just because they're both hotel owners and Latino.

:-)

2. The Villian looses money he is instructed to invest.

No offense but you seem to be thinking that reciting the throwing in the Casino Royale plotline into a much larger movie framed around it is something I've missed. Breaking down the points of it is appreciated for its accuracy but doesn't change that I could list the same number of points of accuracy for Man with the Golden Gun and Live and Let Die. Casino Royale is certainly a more serious picture than those two but its not a pure Fleming adaptation.

A great deal of the film is the utterly Un-fleming chase across the construction site, Bond breaking into M's house (something that never would be tolerated in previous Bonds let alone real life), the airplane terrorism plot, a Thunderball retread island resort visit where Bond seduces the villain's woman, and a crazy truck chase right out of Roger Moore's A View To A Kill.

While I recognize a game of cards followed by a torture scene followed by a suicide does not a 2 hour movie make, I'm a little surprised by the claims of pure Fleming.

Have you read the novel?

Obviously not. I'm posting completely off the top of my head and guessing the plot from posts I've read. In fact I've not seen Casino Royale. In fact, I've never watched a Bond movie.

:-)

(I'm again sorry if I came off as too terse earlier. I'm new to the forums and don't mean to be rude. I'm enjoying that everyone has taken the time to respond to me)

Edited by Willowhugger, 14 December 2006 - 10:50 AM.

[Willowhugger]

I would just have to ask Willowhugger which Bond movies are more 'serious' than CR.

I mean, you don't argue that CR is not a serious movie, compared to all other movies of the same genre; a debate in which I could back you. Instead, you state that CR is not the most serious BOND movie (MAYBE that's true), but also that it's par for the course with Brosnan's films?! Yikes!

I frankly consider the storyline fairly par for course with TWINE. Yes, the aspect of James Bond's character emotionally at the start of his career lends weight to the aspects of Craig's character undergoing a transformation but I don't think that the actual events are particularly more damaging to the psyche. I will state that Casino Royale is better executed than previous Brosnan films but they tried several times to have most of the horrific elements that happen to the Craig Bond happen to Brosnan's Bond.

But yes, both Dalton films are more serious than Casino Royale. Casino Royale maintains the Brosnan sense of fun and otherworldy action that was lacking in the Dalton films. Hence why it feels like Bond.

Edited by Willowhugger, 14 December 2006 - 10:55 AM.

[RazorBlade]

I would just have to ask Willowhugger which Bond movies are more 'serious' than CR.

I mean, you don't argue that CR is not a serious movie, compared to all other movies of the same genre; a debate in which I could back you. Instead, you state that CR is not the most serious BOND movie (MAYBE that's true), but also that it's par for the course with Brosnan's films?! Yikes!

Sorry, but you lose my support there. Maybe we can compare CR to the likes of DN/FRWL/OHMSS in terms of seriousness of tone, and find some challenge. But argue that CR is less serious than anything post '69, and I'm afraid you'll just look silly.

I agree with Judo Chop. I don't think there is one movie I have ever seen that I would change something about it. The same is true of CR. But it was made as a change from the Broz era. It succedes on that account.

[Willowhugger]

Mostly I just see that a lot of the movie seems to me an extrapolation of the ideas set up in the Brosnan era but sort of screwed up by TND and DAD.

[Dr. Noah]

I see what Willowhugger is saying. The difference is the dialogue is better, the relationships are stronger, and the story works.

But yeah. Out of Brosnan's four movies, two (TND and DAD) have a woman drowning and Broz applying the kiss of life in the third act -- and here goes Craig doing it, too, in CR. The difference (aside from the kiss working for Broz twice, while Craig's remains dead) is that the filmakers actually earned the sympathy from the audience this time, and you buy Bond's desperation. I didn't give a damn whether Berry or Yeoh lived or died. They were just plot devices. Heck, after DAD I didn't care if Brosnan made it, either...

[00Twelve]

I suppose all I can say is that in terms of tone, Casino Royale absolutely nails Fleming. Nails him. It's not just the story...the story could have been adapted to fit any one of the Bond actors. I just think it would have seriously lost what it has if any other cast had tackled this. It's the execution. I honestly don't know when I've seen a Bond film that stands up this well *outside* of the Bond canon. It's the only one that I can honestly think of as a great stand-alone film that happens to be about a British man named James Bond. By that, I mean it doesn't have the James Bond shadow looming over it as most of the others do.

A good litmus test for a well-executed, "serious" film for me is how often I can watch it. I can watch most movies over and over, but the ones that are more emotionally draining are much harder to watch often. Casino Royale proves to be one of these for me. This isn't one that I can watch over and over all the time as I can with any one of the others. I mean, I actually teared up...in a BOND MOVIE, for crying out loud! (That's right...say something! )

That's why it's the most "serious" (?) Bond film for me. But hey, just me.

[Judo chop]

[quote name='Willowhugger' date='14 December 2006 - 04:53'

But yes, both Dalton films are more serious than Casino Royale. Casino Royale maintains the Brosnan sense of fun and otherworldy action that was lacking in the Dalton films. Hence why it feels like Bond.
[/quote]

Well then, in that case, I would have to say that what you call "serious" I might rather call "dry". We aren't agreeing on what it means to be serious.

To me there is no doubt that, although CR consists of several great moments of a Brosnan film excitement and ballyhoo (been dying to use that word in a sentence), it also reaches levels of 'seriousness' not seen before in a Bond film. Although, again, I would listen to arguments that it could be challenged by OHMSS, or LTK, for its seriousness. But NOT to ANY of the Brosnan films. No way.

I mean, since we're comparing to the seriousness of Brosnan films, why not throw in Roger's films while you're at it? CR must be the most joyful, upbeat film in the whole Bond cannon! I've heard it said that an opinion can't be wrong; but you seem to be trying really hard to be the first.

(emoticons aren't working, I guess)

[jake speed]

Then he dodges through Machine Gun fire JUST LIKE BRONSAN'S BOND....and then there's the strategically placed propane tanks that he can use to make his daring escape.

Yes, because every action movie where the hero dodges machine gun fire is paying homage to Brosnan's Bond. Look, you attempt to make a good point, but the reasons you cite don't add up.

Lets look at what this movie has that Brosnan's movies will never have:

-Genuine humor
-Great action sequences
-A great love story
-Fleming material.

Surely the speedboat PTS in TWINE was as good as anything in Casino Royale? Apart from the free-running sequence there wasn't anything that inventive action wise in CR, the Airport sequence was a bit Bruce Willis circa 1990 while the Embassy scenes were alarmingly Chuck Norris.

[00Twelve]

Surely the speedboat PTS in TWINE was as good as anything in Casino Royale? Apart from the free-running sequence there wasn't anything that inventive action wise in CR, the Airport sequence was a bit Bruce Willis circa 1990 while the Embassy scenes were alarmingly Chuck Norris.

It was certainly one of the very best PTS's, but I will say that when he just started driving the boat through the streets and through buildings at 20 mph, I was like, "Huh?"

You're right, movies have had action scenes set at airports, but hey, I had no complaints on this one. Well done. And hey, I'm still waiting for a Bond car chase to rival Bullitt or French Connection or Ronin.

And everyone, everyone should strive to be like Chuck Norris.

[Dr. Noah]

Surely the speedboat PTS in TWINE was as good as anything in Casino Royale? Apart from the free-running sequence there wasn't anything that inventive action wise in CR, the Airport sequence was a bit Bruce Willis circa 1990 while the Embassy scenes were alarmingly Chuck Norris.

Yeah, it's a shame everyone has been so disapppointed in it...

[Turn]

Surely the speedboat PTS in TWINE was as good as anything in Casino Royale? Apart from the free-running sequence there wasn't anything that inventive action wise in CR, the Airport sequence was a bit Bruce Willis circa 1990 while the Embassy scenes were alarmingly Chuck Norris.

No, I wouldn't agree with that at all. The speedboat chase was little more than a set piece with a bunch of button-pushing (a nautical version of Little Nellie) along with the obligatory tie-straightening and comedy scenes 00Twelve mentioned. It was like something left over from the Moore era. Undoubtably it was the highlight of TWINE, though, which says very little.

There was much more tension in the CR airport sequence. Getting it and the Madagascar sequence in close time of each other gave a lot of action at the beginning and then the pace went more in a suspense direction in setting up the Royale scenes.

[Willowhugger]

Honestly, I found the airport sequence one of the less interesting scenes of Bond series.

[Jet Set Willy]

Surely the speedboat PTS in TWINE was as good as anything in Casino Royale? Apart from the free-running sequence there wasn't anything that inventive action wise in CR, the Airport sequence was a bit Bruce Willis circa 1990 while the Embassy scenes were alarmingly Chuck Norris.

Oh absolutely! Could not agree with you more. Especially the scene when Brozza straightens his tie under water. That was done perfectly, with no smugness, and was very realistic.

Whereas the action in CR contained a Bond that was superhuman, did not bleed, wore smart suits when he was jumping over cranes, was not at all nervous or doubtful when he made his jumps, did not look dirty and grubby, couldn't kill a man with his bare hands, did not have the muscular build like Brosnan so you could actually believe he could perform these stunts, and his hair was kept clean-cut and tidy at all times.

The Brosnan films were faaaar more realistic than CR. One look at the surfing, invisible car chase in DAD should be able to tell you that!

[Jim]

Surely the speedboat PTS in TWINE was as good as anything in Casino Royale? Apart from the free-running sequence there wasn't anything that inventive action wise in CR, the Airport sequence was a bit Bruce Willis circa 1990 while the Embassy scenes were alarmingly Chuck Norris.

Oh absolutely! Could not agree with you more. Especially the scene when Brozza straightens his tie under water. That was done perfectly, with no smugness, and was very realistic.

Whereas the action in CR contained a Bond that was superhuman, did not bleed, wore smart suits when he was jumping over cranes, was not at all nervous or doubtful when he made his jumps, did not look dirty and grubby, couldn't kill a man with his bare hands, did not have the muscular build like Brosnan so you could actually believe he could perform these stunts, and his hair was kept clean-cut and tidy at all times.

The Brosnan films were faaaar more realistic than CR. One look at the surfing, invisible car chase in DAD should be able to tell you that!

Ooh; liquid sarcasm.

[jake speed]

Surely the speedboat PTS in TWINE was as good as anything in Casino Royale? Apart from the free-running sequence there wasn't anything that inventive action wise in CR, the Airport sequence was a bit Bruce Willis circa 1990 while the Embassy scenes were alarmingly Chuck Norris.

Oh absolutely! Could not agree with you more. Especially the scene when Brozza straightens his tie under water. That was done perfectly, with no smugness, and was very realistic.

Whereas the action in CR contained a Bond that was superhuman, did not bleed, wore smart suits when he was jumping over cranes, was not at all nervous or doubtful when he made his jumps, did not look dirty and grubby, couldn't kill a man with his bare hands, did not have the muscular build like Brosnan so you could actually believe he could perform these stunts, and his hair was kept clean-cut and tidy at all times.

The Brosnan films were faaaar more realistic than CR. One look at the surfing, invisible car chase in DAD should be able to tell you that!

I think you were so desperate to have your daily pop at Brosnan there JSW that you exaggerated and gleaned a few generalisations from my post. I said that the speedboat chase was good, I didn't say that it or the Brozzer films were realistic.

[jake speed]

Surely the speedboat PTS in TWINE was as good as anything in Casino Royale? Apart from the free-running sequence there wasn't anything that inventive action wise in CR, the Airport sequence was a bit Bruce Willis circa 1990 while the Embassy scenes were alarmingly Chuck Norris.

No, I wouldn't agree with that at all. The speedboat chase was little more than a set piece with a bunch of button-pushing (a nautical version of Little Nellie) along with the obligatory tie-straightening and comedy scenes 00Twelve mentioned. It was like something left over from the Moore era. Undoubtably it was the highlight of TWINE, though, which says very little.

There was much more tension in the CR airport sequence. Getting it and the Madagascar sequence in close time of each other gave a lot of action at the beginning and then the pace went more in a suspense direction in setting up the Royale scenes.

I do agree that a lot of the action in the Brosnan films is a bit mechanical (and overlong) but I thought the boatchase was fun. They had a programme in the UK a few years ago counting down the top ten Bond moments and the speedboat came quite high if I remember.

[killkenny kid]

Lol. another classic thread. This one has to go down,in the year end review.

[dodge]

Surely the speedboat PTS in TWINE was as good as anything in Casino Royale? Apart from the free-running sequence there wasn't anything that inventive action wise in CR, the Airport sequence was a bit Bruce Willis circa 1990 while the Embassy scenes were alarmingly Chuck Norris.

Oh absolutely! Could not agree with you more. Especially the scene when Brozza straightens his tie under water. That was done perfectly, with no smugness, and was very realistic.

Whereas the action in CR contained a Bond that was superhuman, did not bleed, wore smart suits when he was jumping over cranes, was not at all nervous or doubtful when he made his jumps, did not look dirty and grubby, couldn't kill a man with his bare hands, did not have the muscular build like Brosnan so you could actually believe he could perform these stunts, and his hair was kept clean-cut and tidy at all times.

The Brosnan films were faaaar more realistic than CR. One look at the surfing, invisible car chase in DAD should be able to tell you that!

Thank you. Especially liked your reminder that Craig's Bond's 'awkwardness' in some of the stunts was grounded in the character. Craig's a great enough actor to have done a fine impression of Jackie Chan if Campbell and he had decided on that. Instead, we get a brutal guy willing to try anything--without stopping to straighten his tie.

[Dr. Noah]

Thank you. Especially liked your reminder that Craig's Bond's 'awkwardness' in some of the stunts was grounded in the character. Craig's a great enough actor to have done a fine impression of Jackie Chan if Campbell and he had decided on that. Instead, we get a brutal guy willing to try anything--without stopping to straighten his tie.

But I'm sure he would straighten his tie underwater in his specially designed boat created just in case somebody tries to assassinate a man in the MI6 building -- and watch for no good reason a couple hundred yards away from a speedboat on the Thames (always the mark of a true pro). Then he could chase the hot-looking bad girl in his special boat, submerge it, adjust his tie, drive the boat up and down the streets along the river, and jump out of the boat as it flies 20 feet in the air to catch a rope hanging from the villain's getaway hot air balloon.

Realistic action like that.

Then continue the realism by having Bond fall from the hot air balloon and injure his shoulder, which won't bother him during the rest of the movie except for when the screenwriters remember he's injured, about every half hour or so, and conveniently forget during ski chases, gun battles with helicopters with giant saws attached to rip apart a building instead of just walking in and shooting the target, etc...

God, I hate that film...

[Willowhugger]

Thank you. Especially liked your reminder that Craig's Bond's 'awkwardness' in some of the stunts was grounded in the character. Craig's a great enough actor to have done a fine impression of Jackie Chan if Campbell and he had decided on that. Instead, we get a brutal guy willing to try anything--without stopping to straighten his tie.

Uh huh, now apparently Craig can do Jackie Chan? Now that's just silly talk. Frankly, Daniel can look intimidating and throw a punch but the awkwardness wasn't the deliberately choreographed trouble on the construction site but how he looked silly in the chase sequence at the airport and the machine gun trail.

I'm reminded of that South Park song "What would Brian Boitano do?" Some of the love here is a little over the top.

What would Daniel Craig do if he were here right now? He'd make a plan and he'd follow through that's what Daniel Craig would do.

When Daniel Craig was in the Alps fighting grizzly bears...

Oddly, Brosnan's bond also chasing the assassin in a boat and adjusting his tie is crazy fun true. The "rogue agent" elements of the writing like breaking into M's office and attacking an embassy though just make the character look stupid. Even Craig's acting can't save the scene from bad plotting.

What's next? Craig attacks an American military base?

Edited by Willowhugger, 15 December 2006 - 08:37 PM.