Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

Bond and his girls in Bond 22


48 replies to this topic

#31 RazorBlade

RazorBlade

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1248 posts
  • Location:Austin, TX

Posted 27 December 2006 - 09:54 AM

I personally don't think they'll be any specific Bond girls. M and possably Moneypenny or even Ms Ponsonby might be in it.

I think Bond will be to heart broken to get involved with another women just yet. We might see him at Vespers funeral. Bond 23 we might se Bond with a girl. He'll be to emotoanlly wrecked to be with another girl just yet.


No Bond girls! :) I don't see that happening. I'll think he will be back to his ladykilling ways but no emotional attachments.


I would respond but Gala already knows what I'm thinking.

#32 *Gala*

*Gala*

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1121 posts
  • Location:Brooklyn, NY, USA

Posted 27 December 2006 - 09:56 AM

Yes but it's currently for my eyes only. :P Respond so the others can know what's on your mind. In the meanwhile, I'm going to consult my tarrot cards and see if I'm correct. :)

#33 Kiss Kiss Bang Bang

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 54 posts

Posted 27 December 2006 - 11:15 AM

Hmm it could be a female arch enemy for Bond to get rid of in the future. That would give him an opportunity to "get even" with the deceptive side of any woman's psyche.
If that is the case it should be an Electra King's type... First innocent victim who in time appears to be sadistic, cruel and in every other way malicious :)

#34 PrinceKamalKhan

PrinceKamalKhan

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 11139 posts

Posted 27 December 2006 - 01:38 PM

Hmm it could be a female arch enemy for Bond to get rid of in the future. That would give him an opportunity to "get even" with the deceptive side of any woman's psyche.
If that is the case it should be an Electra King's type... First innocent victim who in time appears to be sadistic, cruel and in every other way malicious :)



I hope not. Let's not have another "Elektra" type for a while. Quite frankly the female traitor(Elektra, Miranda Frost, Vesper) thing I think has played itself out for now. I want Craig's Bond to turn a Pussy Galore type enemy to his side. That's something we haven't seen in too many years.

#35 Odd Jobbies

Odd Jobbies

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1573 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 27 December 2006 - 07:25 PM

...I think partly there's a danger that he will seem too weak if he acts too hurt and embittered... I just wonder how they will handle this.



This will be the essence of Bond22, just like Bond and Vesper's relationship is the true core of CR. Craig will be wanting to discover for us how Bond relates to the next woman that tries to get close to him. How Craig and the writer handle this will define Bond for his foreseeable future. It's complex, but good actors love 'complex'.
Vesper's made him colder and tougher, So he has to show us how he doesn't let the next woman get close, but at the same time let us get close enough to see his 'internal workings'.
Yes, this may weaken him, but it's that weakness that makes him 3-dimensional and the reason why Craig has pumped so much life into the character for so many relieved fans.
A great performance gets us under the skin of the character; Craig managed this in CR (the first time i feel its ever been achieved with the Bond character and Craig deserves an Oscar for it), but its the skin of a man falling in love, so this makes him vulnerable, letting us in. In B22 however, the point is (or at least it should be) that he’s not letting anyone in – he’s making himself invulnerable, yet Craig must find a vulnerability in his performance that lets us in despite this if the character is to remain as 3-dimensional as he is in CR.
Jason Bourne in the 'Identity' movies has his amnesia as brilliant device to make him vulnerable while exploring the killer instincts that are simultaneously making him invulnerable. So the writer's of the next script have a lot to achieve without employing such a device (which itself Ludlum may have first seen 6 years earlier in Fleming’s 1965 novel TMWTGG). I hope they don't use a gimmick, but instead achieve this through great dialogue; honest and unfussy - no double meanings, just straight talking about Bond's contradictions (as contradictory as that statement sounds!). Craig's 'erring' will make him human, and his decisions will make him Bond - its up to Craig to get the 'erring' just right, and up to the writers to get his decisions just right.

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 27 December 2006 - 07:29 PM.


#36 Santa

Santa

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6445 posts
  • Location:Valencia

Posted 28 December 2006 - 12:25 AM

I think there is a lot of room between cold, careless cad and vulnerable, wounded brokenheart. Surely a valuable rebound is just what he needs right now? Both Bond and his girl can appreciate each other for what they are, enjoy what each other has to offer and leave with feelings intact. There are women out there for Bond who could have a role other than throwaway one-nighter or love of his life and that's what I'd like to see - someone who is maybe already involved with someone else but who has a lovely affair with Bond but that is all it is, an affair.

#37 Kiss Kiss Bang Bang

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 54 posts

Posted 28 December 2006 - 01:17 AM

I hope not. Let's not have another "Elektra" type for a while. Quite frankly the female traitor(Elektra, Miranda Frost, Vesper) thing I think has played itself out for now.

As much as I sympathise with the philosophy of avoiding clichees I refuse to accept the three characters as equal. All of them did what they did (betray Bond) for extremally different reasons. Besides that, while Bond suspected Electra already in the middle of the movie (and Frost similarly unveiled her second face also in the middle) Vesper wasn't considered traitor until almost the end. Thus making her the most dangerous - she seemed to have beaten Bond in the poker game. I tend to differentiate all three of them.
You could say the same thing about male villains in all 21 films - that they're alike =P

Edited by Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, 28 December 2006 - 01:18 AM.


#38 PrinceKamalKhan

PrinceKamalKhan

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 11139 posts

Posted 28 December 2006 - 05:12 AM

I hope not. Let's not have another "Elektra" type for a while. Quite frankly the female traitor(Elektra, Miranda Frost, Vesper) thing I think has played itself out for now.

As much as I sympathise with the philosophy of avoiding clichees I refuse to accept the three characters as equal. All of them did what they did (betray Bond) for extremally different reasons. Besides that, while Bond suspected Electra already in the middle of the movie (and Frost similarly unveiled her second face also in the middle) Vesper wasn't considered traitor until almost the end. Thus making her the most dangerous - she seemed to have beaten Bond in the poker game. I tend to differentiate all three of them.
You could say the same thing about male villains in all 21 films - that they're alike =P


Don't get me wrong. Vesper's a far better written character than Elektra or Miranda(of course, unlike the other 2, Vesper Lynd is an actual Fleming creation) and I adore a good femme fatale in a Bond film as much as the next guy. But if we do get another villainess, let it be another Fiona Volpe-type in TB where Bond suspects her at first and is much more in control of the situation. I figure after CR, Craig's Bond will be much less trustful of any woman. TWINE really made Bond look like a naive idiot IMHO. I had trouble believing that Connery's Bond for example would have been so easily taken in by Elektra after all the women(good and bad alike) he'd run across in his career.

#39 Odd Jobbies

Odd Jobbies

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1573 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 28 December 2006 - 11:22 AM

I think there is a lot of room between cold, careless cad and vulnerable, wounded brokenheart. Surely a valuable rebound is just what he needs right now? Both Bond and his girl can appreciate each other for what they are, enjoy what each other has to offer and leave with feelings intact. There are women out there for Bond who could have a role other than throwaway one-nighter or love of his life and that's what I'd like to see - someone who is maybe already involved with someone else but who has a lovely affair with Bond but that is all it is, an affair.



Come on, this is all a bit 'Mills&Boon' ships that pass in the night. Sure there's plenty of room for the one night stands, but a good script has conflict and if the relationships are all so pleasent and amicable it would make a bloody boring film! The central relationship should create problems and tension. In CR Bond resolved these problems by choosing the relationship over his mission. In B22 it wouldn't be very engaging if he made the same choices all over again.
The trajectory of Bond's character in a sequel to CR is moving away from a trusting relationship - as M said to him on the phone at the end, "...you don't trust anyone now Bond..." This is the Key to further developing the character and will define Bond's value system; this is where we can now start having fun getting to know 'Bond the ruthless barsted'.

A film needs emotional movement - character development - so Bond can already be in a position of 'non-trust' and the B22 script describes his movement towards trust. But this would be far too close to CR's 'falling-in-love' plot and the audience wouldn't fall for it.
If they keep up the good work in the pre-production of B22 they'll decide against repeating CR. Instead they'll use B22 to portray his movement away from trust - the start of which we left Bond at the end of CR. As you said, there's plenty of room between ruthless and vulnarable and a good writer will exploit this, but the whole script has to have a direction and purpose. Stanley Kubrick subtitled Dr Strangelove 'How I learnt to stop worrying and love the Bomb' and the sentiment could well apply to the end scene of CR and Bond22. There's glee and resolves in Craig as he announces his name in spite of the tragedy. I want to enjoy this ruthless barsted a little before we have to start softening him up again!

I don't think Fleming's rationale for the stark end of CR was to make Bond such a wreck as to need, nor want a relationship thereafter. He was giving his readers an artificail and instant example of what may make a man a good agent - one resistant to emotional baggage. Obviously the reasons in real life are far more complex and start far earlier, but by the end of CR - because of his reaction to the tragedy - we have a reason to believe this man can be ruthless - without the reason he'd be a cartoon.
I must admit that in LALD he's virtually put CR behind him, but it would have been a better book if it had played upon his scars more than just the metaphore of his tatooed hand - which had been repaired by skin graft. Hopefully B22 will not pack away CR with metaphores, and instead give Bond ample opportunities not make the same mistakes twice: his emotion and temper have become resolve and inginuity.
I think many of us want a story arch over 3 films. This means that we don't need the formulaic love affair in each; the love affair was CR, Bond22 is his self imposed emotional isolation and professionalism, e.g. faced with Vesper in the path of his car again, he'd run her over. By B23 it may be interesting to see him stirred and teased back into the deep-end of his emotions, but not to the extent of Vesper. This is just what Fleming did with Gala Brand - who, in another inspired ending, as good as dumped Bond. It was sometime before Bond found Tracy and i suggest the film's continue to follow Fleming's plan.

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 28 December 2006 - 01:07 PM.


#40 Kiss Kiss Bang Bang

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 54 posts

Posted 28 December 2006 - 01:39 PM

Heh, I just saw what we're truly dealing with. It's about "types" - woman-types, villain-types... Perhaps future Bond scriptwriters could surprise us with a non-schematic personas. On the other hand Bond movies always have been about clichees, and it worked.
But I guess it doesn't matter anyway - Bond trusts no-one after CR :)

#41 horsehead

horsehead

    Cadet

  • Crew
  • 19 posts

Posted 28 December 2006 - 04:20 PM

I seem to remember in FRWL Bond knew from the start that Tatiana Romanova was essentially a double agent even if she didn't! & when Bond needed information towards the end he wasn't above treating her like a spy (ie beating her/slapping her). What we need is a bond going into a situation with his eyes wide open.

#42 Pal

Pal

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 377 posts

Posted 29 December 2006 - 06:41 PM

I can see it being treated more like Bond wanting to let them get close but he knows the consequences and that presents a conflict within himself. I don't see Craig having any troubles nailing those kind of emotions.

#43 Cody

Cody

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1393 posts

Posted 31 December 2006 - 02:03 AM

To lighten things up, they could decide to show that a girl inspired Bond's Roger Moore/Pierce Brosnan humor and cast a comedienne to wisecrack her way through 22.

Not a serious suggestion.

#44 *Gala*

*Gala*

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1121 posts
  • Location:Brooklyn, NY, USA

Posted 01 January 2007 - 04:51 PM

Yeah... I can't see it w/o any Bond girls either. From the storyline and character perspective it could make sense. But from the marketing/advertising/publicity and all that jazz? Nope!

As for having a joke due to Bronan and such, I'd seriously love it for comic relief, but not as a major character. Maybe just have a cameo appearance or a short scene that mocks it just for a second. That way it won't take away from the story but still make me laugh.

#45 PrinceKamalKhan

PrinceKamalKhan

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 11139 posts

Posted 02 January 2007 - 01:14 AM

Yeah... I can't see it w/o any Bond girls either. From the storyline and character perspective it could make sense. But from the marketing/advertising/publicity and all that jazz? Nope!


Agreed. We gotta have our Bond girls! :cooltongue: And not a "love" story. We've had that in CR. Bond still likes the ladies but needs to keep 'em at an emotional distance.

#46 *Gala*

*Gala*

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1121 posts
  • Location:Brooklyn, NY, USA

Posted 02 January 2007 - 03:44 PM

True... all the more for me to stick to my original idea and insist on keeping the "Gala Brand" type till Bond 23. :cooltongue:

#47 dodge

dodge

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5068 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 02 January 2007 - 04:30 PM

Let's have some proof, for a couple of films, that Bonds have more fun. Eventually, as we all know, Bond's heart will be broken all over again with the death of Tracy. And my wild card hope is still for a remake of OHMSS as Craig's last film--but ending with the marriage and not with Tracy's death. (A suggestion of danger advancing, but not her being shot.) We'd end and close Craig's era with James Bond in love.

In between, let him recover his love of women's company, though his affairs are fleeting. And let him learn to trust again.

He'll need to do both of those if the Craig era's to fit at all with the rest of the Bond canon: all the other Bonds have needed and trusted their allies...and all the other Bonds seemed to sincerely enjoy the company of their ladies.

I love the suggestion of Craig meeting up with a new take on Pussy Galore. But without the flying circus, please!

#48 Eva

Eva

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 56 posts

Posted 09 January 2007 - 12:31 PM

In the interview with W Magazine Daniel Craig talks briefly about what he wants from future Bond girls .....

"Craig is playing dumb about the details but he does say that if he has his way in future sequels, Flemings beloved bimbos will be as obsolete as shoe phones. "I want the women to be fabulous, intelligent and great - if Bond has affairs - and behaves a bit more like Bond - there has to be a good reason for it. Otherwise it doesn't work. That's not what people are interested in anymore".

#49 Santa

Santa

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6445 posts
  • Location:Valencia

Posted 09 January 2007 - 02:02 PM

That's what I'd like to see. Affairs, not huge love stories, but that doesn't have to mean the women are throwaway bimbos. They are one-nighters or short-lived affairs but only because that's how things are sometimes, NOT because the woman involved is not worthy of any more of Bond's time.