740 replies to this topic

[Mr. Blofeld]

*giggles like Walken*

Zorin : "You amuse me , mr Blofeld"

I'm surprised you hadn't heard...

[Stuart]

QOS is better and more entertaining than CR.

[Dan Gale]

QOS is better and more entertaining than CR.

I agree. Although admittedly it's like comparing a drive-in hot dog (QoS) with a never-ending luxury 6 course meal (CR): they're both great but it depends what your palette desires. Two luxury meals = indegestion.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

"Orthodox" general opinion seems to be that Moore's 1st 3 odd numbered series entries are his 3 best and each one is followed by a weaker successor, i.e.,

1st Live and Let Die followed by the "weaker" 2nd The Man with the Golden Gun,
3rd The Spy Who Loved Me followed by the "weaker" 4th Moonraker,
5th For Your Eyes Only followed by the "weaker" 6th Octopussy.

However, I find each of the "weaker" even numbered Moore films to be better than its odd numbered immediate predecessor, hence I rank The Man with the Golden Gun higher than Live and Let Die, Moonraker higher than The Spy Who Loved Me and Octopussy higher than For Your Eyes Only. Perhaps my love of John Barry's music influences my decision in each of those cases.

In a similar vein, Brosnan's odd numbered films are considered better than his even numbered films. However I rank his 2nd Tomorrow Never Dies higher than his 1st GoldenEye and his 4th Die Another Day higher than his 3rd The World is not Enough.

[Safari Suit]

Well I'd certainly rate OP considerably higher than FYEO, and if I'm honest with myself I'd probably give MR the slight edge over TSWLM. And if I'm honest with myself again I'd almost certainly take DAD over the other Brosnans.

[Guy Haines]

I don't know if this counts as saying the unsayable but....... I really don't rate "Nobody Does It Better" as a Bond movie theme song.

As a song it is fine, but in the context of a Bond film it is too laid back for my tastes, too "major key" and lacks the sense of drama conjured up in other Bond themes.

Its not that I think all Bond themes should be clones of "Goldfinger" sung by Shirley Bassey (and here's another bit of heresy - I don't think she should return to perform another Bond theme, unlike those who must have spent hours synchronising their favourite tracks from her new album with the title scenes from CR or QoS, then posting the results on You Tube).

No, its just that for me "Nobody Does It Better" doesn't fit Bond in general and TSWLM in particular. And yet it was the the one collecting the awards ahead of other Bond themes as deserving if not moreso.

[ChristopherZ22]

There are many Bond fans that think alike. They hold the same views. Of course people tend to flock like sheep, think like one another, and ultimately lose their individuality. It is usually because people are afraid to think differently; maybe they don't want to be ridiculed or feel left out of a community. When certain views are held by too many persons like "Goldfinger is the greatest Bond movie," or "A View To A Kill is one of the worst Bond movies," than I just think that many of them are not being honest about their opinions. Furthermore, it gets boring reading the same views over and over and over again on the Internet like "Bond does not belong in space," "that slide whistle noise during the car jump in The Man With the Gold Gun is annoying and it ruined the stunt ," "the invisible car ruined Die Another Day," "Casino Royale is the best Bond movie ever," or "Diamonds Are Forever is the worst Connery Eon film and Fleming's worst novel."

I am reminded of an example that Woody Allen gave about this mentality in an interview. He stated that when a person stands with a group of people that hated the new James Bond movie, they agree with that group and claim to hate it too. Then they walk away from that group and join another group of persons who loved the new Bond film. They all of a sudden change their opinion and agree with this group that the new Bond film is great. In other words, people don't think for themselves.

I have caught a few views on these boards that are radical and don't fit with many Bond fans; examples are the user Zencat being a Moonraker fan, the user Zorin Industries naming A View To A Kill as their favorite Bond film, or the user DLibrasnow naming Never Say Never Again as their favorite. I myself have a few radical views; I think The Man With the Golden Gun is one of the best Bond films, that Moonraker is superior to The Spy Who Loved Me, that Quantum of Solace is better than Casino Royale, and that GoldenEye is Pierce Brosnan's worst Bond film.

So what views do you have that are radical and are not held by many or most Bond fans? Please share them.

[Ytadel]

Let's see...

-Octopussy is one of my favorite movies of the series.

-Francisco Scaramanga is one of my top 5 Bond villains.

-I prefer GoldenEye to Casino Royale (I'm not sure this one is too uncommon outside of CBn, but I know on this forum it is definitely frowned upon).

[Jim]

There are many Bond fans that think alike.

Not untrue:-

http://debrief.comma..._hl__unorthodox

Every community needs its sheep. They provide wool and meat and look so lovely as lickle baa-lambs.

[Messervy]

My views on Bond:
- I think Bond shouldn't drive an Aston Martin: they're sportscars for rich posers with no brains.
- I think Bond should resume smoking, preferably cigars (granted, that's hardly a "radical" opinion, but nevertheless quite anti-PC these days).

My views on the filmmaking:
- I think the filmmakers should stop trying to woo the US market and focus a bit more on core european audiences.
- I think the next films should be based on John Le Carre's plots and/or be adapted from some of his work.
- I don't really want Moneypenny back in future Bond films.

[Zorin Industries]

My views on the filmmaking:
- I think the filmmakers should stop trying to woo the US market and focus a bit more on core european audiences.
- I think the next films should be based on John Le Carre's plots and/or be adapted from some of his work.
- I don't really want Moneypenny back in future Bond films.

Being aware of the US market is different to wooing it. These films need to make money. The US is a key (though not sole) territory for Bond and most of all western cinema which is made in the context of business. And surely the Euro-centric casting choices of the recent likes of Mikkelson, Kurylenko, Almaric, Green, Stephens and Pike suggest a certain awareness of European audiences and their needs too, no...?

The Bond films should not be based on any Le Carre novels. That is plain silly. Regardless of the legalities (the Fleming rights and the Fleming estate are enough to contend with for Bond HQ), the whole tone, timbre and style of those books is quite removed from Bond. That is why Gary Oldman has just been cast as the lead in the new TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY film and not Henry Cavill.

I semi agree with you re MONEYPENNY. I think the right actress needs to take that role and shake it up (I have always suggested Rebecca Hall or Jessica Hynes). There is more tonal need for MONEYPENNY than there is narrative need for Q.

[hilly]

"When certain views are held by too many persons like "Goldfinger is the greatest Bond movie," or "A View To A Kill is one of the worst Bond movies," than I just think that many of them are not being honest about their opinions"

Ummmm...people ARE entitled to hold non-radical views too, of course....Nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box, but it gets equally tedious when people try do it just for the sake of it and in the interests of trying to seem different...

[David Schofield]

"When certain views are held by too many persons like "Goldfinger is the greatest Bond movie," or "A View To A Kill is one of the worst Bond movies," than I just think that many of them are not being honest about their opinions"

Ummmm...people ARE entitled to hold non-radical views too, of course....Nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box, but it gets equally tedious when people try do it just for the sake of it and in the interests of trying to seem different...

With Hilly 100% here. Rather a pretentious stand point form the OP, to be honest.

And, of course, how "radical" are views allowed to be before they're considered to be ludicrous? Look at the "Craig Not Bond" brigade and consider how they were shouted down simply because some of them could not picture Craig as James Bond; let's be honest, if you read Fleming you do NOT get an image of Craig, but damn those Craig not Bonders for holding that opinion!

Curious one that, isn't it, what we view as acceptable when it comes to others' opinions of Bond?

[Messervy]

My views on the filmmaking:
- I think the filmmakers should stop trying to woo the US market and focus a bit more on core european audiences.
- I think the next films should be based on John Le Carre's plots and/or be adapted from some of his work.
- I don't really want Moneypenny back in future Bond films.

Being aware of the US market is different to wooing it. These films need to make money. The US is a key (though not sole) territory for Bond and most of all western cinema which is made in the context of business. And surely the Euro-centric casting choices of the recent likes of Mikkelson, Kurylenko, Almaric, Green, Stephens and Pike suggest a certain awareness of European audiences and their needs too, no...?

The Bond films should not be based on any Le Carre novels. That is plain silly. Regardless of the legalities (the Fleming rights and the Fleming estate are enough to contend with for Bond HQ), the whole tone, timbre and style of those books is quite removed from Bond. That is why Gary Oldman has just been cast as the lead in the new TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY film and not Henry Cavill.

I semi agree with you re MONEYPENNY. I think the right actress needs to take that role and shake it up (I have always suggested Rebecca Hall or Jessica Hynes). There is more tonal need for MONEYPENNY than there is narrative need for Q.

I on the contrary think that there is plenty of room for clever adaptation of Le Carre's work into Bond world. I'm not saying word for word adaptation; that would indeed be "silly", as you quite diplomatically contemplate. I'm talking inspiration from Le Carre's plots: bits of The Russia House, and bits of the Smiley trilogy. You could thus introduce real espionage plot into Bond films. We did get a very brief glimpse of it in DAD, with the "sleeper agent" part. Why not develop it further? Hell, all the talk there currently is on CBn about Quantum is about moles and treason! How can you possibly work on that without drawing inspiration from Le Carre's work, which is arguably the best there is in this field?

I'm still not convinced about Moneypenny returning. In the current mood of the series, what would that add?
Besides, I could also do without Q, unless we bring him back as the armourer he was intended to be and put aside the cartoon-gadget-caricature Q branch became throughout the years.

[Zorin Industries]

Le Carre did not invent the last word on spy writing. And that is not in the Broccoli creative mindset - nor would it be anyone else's. If you want to do a Le Carre-esque story, then just adapt a Le Carre work surely?

[SecretAgentFan]

I like the idea of this thread, just to show how diverse our opinions about Bond here can get.

I must admit, however, that I probably share too many opinions already stated.

- GOLDENEYE is Brosnan´s worst Bond film.
- THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN is one of the most underrated Bond films.
- DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER is one of the best Bond films.

and, of course, the most hated opinion on this board:

- TWINE is one of my absolute favorite Bond films.

[Zorin Industries]

Apart from what I am obviously going to say about other films, I think DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER has the best dialogue of any Bond film, TOMORROW NEVER DIES is easily Brosnan's better film, GOLDENEYE is badly shot and directed, MOONRAKER is more watchable than THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, OCTOPUSSY is a really tight Cold war caper, THUNDERBALL is a tad boring (in parts), the first half of DIE ANOTHER DAY paved an effective path for Daniel Craig, THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH is all over the place and not very good, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is Connery's best onscreen presence and performance and GOLDEN GUN is under-rated, but better for it.

[Messervy]

(...) that is not in the Broccoli creative mindset (...)

Well, this is a "thinking out of the box" thread, isn't it? So, this is me thinking out of the box. And, yes, I'd like the Broccoli creative mindset, as you put it, to be inspired by Le Carre's work.
As I said, I'm not asking for an adaptation. CR and QoS did introduce a more "down to earth" Bond, with more spy-on-a-trail espionage elements. I'm saying Bond could benefit from getting Le Carre-esque elements into the franchise.

But I could settle with the Broccoli publicly hanging Purvis & Wade, if that's any comfort to you...

[Zorin Industries]

(...) that is not in the Broccoli creative mindset (...)

Well, this is a "thinking out of the box" thread, isn't it? So, this is me thinking out of the box. And, yes, I'd like the Broccoli creative mindset, as you put it, to be inspired by Le Carre's work.
As I said, I'm not asking for an adaptation. CR and QoS did introduce a more "down to earth" Bond, with more spy-on-a-trail espionage elements. I'm saying Bond could benefit from getting Le Carre-esque elements into the franchise.

But I could settle with the Broccoli publicly hanging Purvis & Wade, if that's any comfort to you...

Not going to happen (!).

And I am not entirely sure that the world of Le Carre's spy writing is the world we, 007 and the Bond management are now in anyway. Surely the devices and spy-ness that you want nicked from a writer the Broccoli's have no rights over are there in the Fleming work (which they can raid)...?

[Joyce Carrington]

I think Dr. Christmas Jones is really cool.

[SecretAgentFan]

I think Dr. Christmas Jones is really cool.

Now that´s very courageous of you, Joyce! Personally, I always liked her myself.

And considering the P & W-hate around here. Yes, let me say it: they are probably some of the best writers the Bond films ever had.

[Messervy]

(...) that is not in the Broccoli creative mindset (...)

Well, this is a "thinking out of the box" thread, isn't it? So, this is me thinking out of the box. And, yes, I'd like the Broccoli creative mindset, as you put it, to be inspired by Le Carre's work.
As I said, I'm not asking for an adaptation. CR and QoS did introduce a more "down to earth" Bond, with more spy-on-a-trail espionage elements. I'm saying Bond could benefit from getting Le Carre-esque elements into the franchise.

But I could settle with the Broccoli publicly hanging Purvis & Wade, if that's any comfort to you...

Not going to happen (!).

And I am not entirely sure that the world of Le Carre's spy writing is the world we, 007 and the Bond management are now in anyway. Surely the devices and spy-ness that you want nicked from a writer the Broccoli's have no rights over are there in the Fleming work (which they can raid)...?

Oh well, I'll crawl back inside my box then...

[Zorin Industries]

Maybe I'm not an "outside the box" sort of Zorin. Le Carre / Bond makes no sense to me. They are poles apart. That is - to me and me alone - not thinking outside the box, but outside the realms of reality. Otherwise we say Dean Cain could play Bond - if you think outside the box etc. etc. I.e. you can claim anything.

[Messervy]

Maybe I'm not an "outside the box" sort of Zorin. Le Carre / Bond makes no sense to me. They are poles apart. That is - to me and me alone - not thinking outside the box, but outside the realms of reality. Otherwise we say Dean Cain could play Bond - if you think outside the box etc. etc. I.e. you can claim anything.

How so?
I've been giving it a lot of thought, while reading Le Carre books. The mood, the political backgrounds and the "sentimental" plots have nothing to do with Bond, obviously. But the sheer espionage parts could work, if well adapted to Bond world.
Remember the book fair in Moscow and all the spying stuff around it (The Russia House)? That could be used, to some extent, within a Bond plot. Remember the mole hunt in Tinker, Tailor? That could be used as one of the ways to build a Quantum chase in future Bond films.
That is, obviously, if Bond is going the espionage route. That would indeed be backtracking from the typical Bond we got on films (except the last 2). But that would not necessarily be worlds apart from litterary Bond. We could blend.
I'm not saying this has to happen, I'm saying it would be a nice touch if it were to happen.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

Maybe these are out the box:
I think the series was very lucky to have John Glen as director.
I don't wanna see Q return - ever I think.
YOLT was exactly the film that was required after TB and helped sustain the longevity of the series.

[Zorin Industries]

And I think those touches (all of which I am for, by the way - love a good sleeper agent meself) are in the potential universe of Bond anyway. They don't need to ape / read or echo Le Carre. But I know what you mean...

More not-inside-the-boxness....

Roger Moore is a very good screen actor as he knows (like Michael Caine) exactly what the camera sees and what it doesn't. Old school personified.

I liked Pierce Brosnan as Bond and - like all the other actors at their time - they took the baton and did not kill the seties, which is very important in the longevity of the series.

I would like to see Steven Soderbergh direct a Bond film.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

Roger Moore is a very good screen actor as he knows (like Michael Caine) exactly what the camera sees and what it doesn't. Old school personified.

I liked Pierce Brosnan as Bond and - like all the other actors at their time - they took the baton and did not kill the seties, which is very important in the longevity of the series.

I would like to see Steven Soderbergh direct a Bond film.

I agree here, especially with Moore. A master at making his performances look effortless, and yes gives the camera exactly what it wants.

And Zorin I would be interested to hear why you think the first part of DAD paved an effective path for Craig.

[jaguar007]

And, of course, how "radical" are views allowed to be before they're considered to be ludicrous? Look at the "Craig Not Bond" brigade and consider how they were shouted down simply because some of them could not picture Craig as James Bond; let's be honest, if you read Fleming you do NOT get an image of Craig, but damn those Craig not Bonders for holding that opinion!

Curious one that, isn't it, what we view as acceptable when it comes to others' opinions of Bond?

I can understand people's initial apprehension toward Craig as Bond myself. I think the reason people were shouted down was because of the craignotbond.com website. Initially is was not just a protest to Craig, but mean spirited and vicious without even giving the guy a chance. I agree that Craig is not the closest to Fleming's Bond, but he did bring back a certain masculinity missing from the role since Connery.

[Messervy]

And I think those touches (all of which I am for, by the way - love a good sleeper agent meself) are in the potential universe of Bond anyway. They don't need to ape / read or echo Le Carre. But I know what you mean...

In the end, my point (but that could require another thread) is that I'd like more sheer "spy" parts in Bond: like the glimpses we got with the sleeper agent in DAD and with the fact that Bond appealed to Mathis and his former Station connections in QoS, for instance. Bond is a spy, so, as tautological as it might seem, we should have espionage plots. (and now I resume my "out of the box" statements) I'm honestly sick and tired of the cartoon Bond we got in recent movies: invisible cars, remote control for driving a car from the back seat, stupid jokes just because Bond is supposed to crack jokes (the "so good" lines in DAD, the Christmass lines in TWINE, the "linguist" lines in TND), etc. I'm all for a more down to earth (and by that, would I mean no more outer space?!) Bond, and I think it was brilliantly delivered in CR and QoS. And in the first half of DAD, for the matter of that.
My opinion is that this could be achieved through inspiration from Le Carre. But as I can see this seems to upset Broccoli purists ( ), I guess we could achieve this some other way. As long as we don't get the wanker caricature of Bond, I'm ok.

[jaguar007]

And considering the P & W-hate around here. Yes, let me say it: they are probably some of the best writers the Bond films ever had.

While I don't think P&W are the bet writers Bond ever had, you won't hear me bashing them either. While TWINE is one of my least favorite Bond films, it is not because of the script. In fact I have stated on many occasions that on paper, TWINE looked to be Brosnan's best film. It is the direction, casting of Denise Richards and the lifeless, dull action scenes that I have problem with.

This may be understandable as far as people on this website, but I find myself at odds with 'normal' people when I state that TLD is one of my top 5 favorite Bond films.

I also think that David Arnold has produced a couple of the best non-Barry Bond scores.

Roger Moore is a very good screen actor as he knows (like Michael Caine) exactly what the camera sees and what it doesn't. Old school personified.

I agree with this. In fact I could watch Roger Moore read the phone book.