53 replies to this topic

[Streetworker]

[quote name='Harmsway' post='513845' date='6 February 2006 - 18:17']
[quote name='Streetworker' post='513808' date='6 February 2006 - 12:15']
[quote name='Dunph' post='508215' date='25 January 2006 - 18:28']
[quote name='doublenoughtspy' date='25 January 2006 - 17:03']Young's disdain of Thunderball is pretty evident. He left production to work on The Poppy is Also a Flower.

[Harmsway]

Glad it's not just me. I regard Thunderball as the weakest of the Eon Bonds; but I get the feeling that's tantamount to Treason on CBN...

I could never regard a film with the best dialogue in the series as the weakest.

But as I don't, I can.

Not a fan of "She's just dead"? Or "I know a little about women"? Or "Wait till you get to my teeth"? Or "I think he got the point"? Or all those absolutely fantastic lines that this movie is just chock full of?

[Skudor]

Thunderball is one of my absolute favourites - largely because Connery was at the hight of his powers as Bond. He's brilliant in it. It does go on a bit with the underwater scenes - but watching it in the cinema back then it might have felt different.

[spynovelfan]

Not a fan of "She's just dead"? Or "I know a little about women"? Or "Wait till you get to my teeth"? Or "I think he got the point"? Or all those absolutely fantastic lines that this movie is just chock full of?

I like all those lines but the last, which just seems to be a completely obvious and unfunny pun (as does 'Shocking... positively shocking' and others in that vein). And, clearly, there's a lot of fantastic stuff in THUNDERBALL. But I share the view expressed by my right honourable friends a few moments ago: the film is still a complete mess. It's not just that that underwater stuff at the end goes on for two and a half years; the whole thing lacks tension. It's serious 'throw in the kitchen sink' stuff: cool for the sake of it. Some prefer Bond that way, but I don't, I'm afraid.

[Andrew]

the whole thing lacks tension

You see that's not the case for me. The tension is one of the reasons why Thunderball is my favorite, it's a race against the clock and if that race isn't won there is going to be some severe worldwide damage.

The other major factores as to why the film is so great to me is, as Harmsway has pointed out, the best dialogue of the series and the glamour of it all.

[Harmsway]

Not a fan of "She's just dead"? Or "I know a little about women"? Or "Wait till you get to my teeth"? Or "I think he got the point"? Or all those absolutely fantastic lines that this movie is just chock full of?

I like all those lines but the last, which just seems to be a completely obvious and unfunny pun (as does 'Shocking... positively shocking' and others in that vein).

Oh, it's indeed funny, especially because of Connery's nonchalant delivery. Such puns have certainly been overused in the Bond franchise, but done at the right moment and in the right way, they're great. It works great with Connery's delivery.

You see that's not the case for me. The tension is one of the reasons why Thunderball is my favorite, it's a race against the clock and if that race isn't won there is going to be some severe worldwide damage.

Yes, there's certainly a great "race against time" feel to it. Unfortunately it doesn't carry over into the finale, which does drag quite a bit.

The best, most taut, and tense finale? GOLDFINGER. As that bomb ticks slowly away, the tension is just racheted up.

[Loomis]

He's rarely given credit for this, but Connery's delivery really does elevate what if you look at it dispassionately is really rather blah dialogue. He knew how to make a line work (not just the funny stuff, but even he couldn't save the unintentionally hilarious "Must be a pretty sick collection of minds to come up with a stunt like that" bit in FRWL). Moore was a master of it, too, and justly recognised as such, but the subtleties of Connery's Bond performances seem comparatively overlooked, possibly because everyone focuses only on his amazing alpha male macho screen presence and coolness, and his brilliance in action scenes.

But, yes, THUNDERBALL is a mess. DR. NO, FRWL and YOLT are all you really need of Connery's Eon outings.

[Harmsway]

But, yes, THUNDERBALL is a mess. DR. NO, FRWL and YOLT are all you really need of Connery's Eon outings.

Add GOLDFINGER and I'll agree with you. Connery's performance in that is just too good to miss, and it really is James Bond at the top of his game. I recently rewatched it and was struck by how great it truly was. It's lively, fun, stylish, and cool. It's definitely Connery Bond at the epitome of "masculine fantasy".

I'll definitely agree that THUNDERBALL is hardly essential "Connery" though, but it has some inspired stuff. While overall it's uneven, the best bits of THUNDERBALL are better than the best stuff most Bond films have to offer.

You and I both agree, however, that YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is criminally underrated by the Bond fan community. Top-notch entertainment.

[Loomis]

Add GOLDFINGER and I'll agree with you. Connery's performance in that is just too good to miss, and it really is James Bond at the top of his game. I recently rewatched it and was struck by how great it truly was.

Heaven knows it's way better than most Bond films - most films, for the matter of that; but I still find it rather overrated. And I feel it runs out of steam towards the end. I wouldn't call it "perfect" like DR. NO and FRWL, although I know that few would agree with that.

Best opening ever, though. And arguably the finest first half hour or so ever, too. And Connery certainly can't be faulted.

the best bits of THUNDERBALL are better than the best stuff most Bond films have to offer.

Agreed.

[Harmsway]

Add GOLDFINGER and I'll agree with you. Connery's performance in that is just too good to miss, and it really is James Bond at the top of his game. I recently rewatched it and was struck by how great it truly was.

Heaven knows it's way better than most Bond films - most films, for the matter of that; but I still find it rather overrated. And I feel it runs out of steam towards the end. I wouldn't call it "perfect" like DR. NO and FRWL, although I know that few would agree with that.

Best opening ever, though. And arguably the finest first half hour or so ever, too. And Connery certainly can't be faulted.

Well I can understand that. And it certainly is overpraised by the Bond fan community. But while it may sort of run out of steam and not be all that fantastic in the middle sections, I think the Fort Knox assault is full of tension as that bomb slowly ticks down. And the fight with Oddjob is one of the most memorable fights in the series.

I'd still consider it "essential Connery" just for the good it has to offer, and that Connery is just so darn good in it that it's wonderful. I mean, it struck me as so good especially as I've been watching a lot of the post-Connery era Bonds lately. GOLDFINGER certainly outshines most of the films in the Bond canon.

[Turn]

But, yes, THUNDERBALL is a mess. DR. NO, FRWL and YOLT are all you really need of Connery's Eon outings.

Add GOLDFINGER and I'll agree with you. Connery's performance in that is just too good to miss, and it really is James Bond at the top of his game. I recently rewatched it and was struck by how great it truly was. It's lively, fun, stylish, and cool. It's definitely Connery Bond at the epitome of "masculine fantasy".

I'll definitely agree that THUNDERBALL is hardly essential "Connery" though, but it has some inspired stuff. While overall it's uneven, the best bits of THUNDERBALL are better than the best stuff most Bond films have to offer.

You and I both agree, however, that YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is criminally underrated by the Bond fan community. Top-notch entertainment.

I'll disagree with both of you on YOLT.

First, Connery's presence is hardly vital. It's the film that if you replaced him and put Lazenby or someone else in it, it wouldn't have missed a beat. Little if anything happens he lends his special touch too, save for a few instances.

His presence in TB, by comparison, is a lot more vital to what happens. In YOLT it's a matter of what vehicle will he jump into next? What gadget will he produce next?

[Harmsway]

We weren't referring to which movie necessarily showcases Connery best (though that was part of my argument for GOLDFINGER's overall film quality), but more which films are more or less overall worth taking away from the Connery era.

And YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is among the very best the franchise has to offer, in my opinion. It's "epic" Bond at its finest with a thrilling, atmospheric ride. And Connery still works just great in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, IMO of course.

[Turn]

We weren't referring to which movie necessarily showcases Connery best (though that was part of my argument for GOLDFINGER's overall film quality), but more which films are more or less overall worth taking away from the Connery era.

And YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is among the very best the franchise has to offer, in my opinion. It's "epic" Bond at its finest with a thrilling, atmospheric ride. And Connery still works just great in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, IMO of course.

Got ya. Taken from this perspective, I can understand where you are coming from on YOLT. I still prefer TB when it comes to the epic films, but a YOLT works in a different way, although I rank it near the bottom.

[Harmsway]

We weren't referring to which movie necessarily showcases Connery best (though that was part of my argument for GOLDFINGER's overall film quality), but more which films are more or less overall worth taking away from the Connery era.

And YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is among the very best the franchise has to offer, in my opinion. It's "epic" Bond at its finest with a thrilling, atmospheric ride. And Connery still works just great in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, IMO of course.

Got ya. Taken from this perspective, I can understand where you are coming from on YOLT. I still prefer TB when it comes to the epic films, but a YOLT works in a different way, although I rank it near the bottom.

I don't really rank THUNDERBALL among the "epic" Bonds. I consider it to be more of a somewhat-epic Bond, because in all honesty, it's not THAT huge. It has a decent scale, but it's only a step above what came before it, and has been paralleled many-a-time afterward.

What I consider the "epic" Bonds are three (maybe four) films: YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, MOONRAKER, and possibly DIE ANOTHER DAY. Films that are terribly massive in scope and crammed with "Bondian" and intriguing elements to create something huge. They're a sub-genre of Bond, IMO, and I think YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is the absolute cream of the crop as far as the "epics" are concerned.

[Streetworker]

He's rarely given credit for this, but Connery's delivery really does elevate what if you look at it dispassionately is really rather blah dialogue. He knew how to make a line work (not just the funny stuff, but even he couldn't save the unintentionally hilarious "Must be a pretty sick collection of minds to come up with a stunt like that" bit in FRWL). Moore was a master of it, too, and justly recognised as such, but the subtleties of Connery's Bond performances seem comparatively overlooked, possibly because everyone focuses only on his amazing alpha male macho screen presence and coolness, and his brilliance in action scenes.

But, yes, THUNDERBALL is a mess. DR. NO, FRWL and YOLT are all you really need of Connery's Eon outings.

For me, Thunderball is a bloated bore separating two gems. Yes, I'll admit there are some good lines in Thunderball. But there are better ones in Diamonds Are Forever ("Provided the collars and cuffs match"; ""Lucky for you it wasn't Van Cleefe etc..."; "Don't tell; me - you're St. Peter?"; "I didn't know there was a pool down there"). But DAF is hardly my favourite, either. Individual great lines do not necessarily a great film make. And, for me, Thunderball just drones on and one without any of the tension the movies' first great nuclear hijack flick should exhibit.

We weren't referring to which movie necessarily showcases Connery best (though that was part of my argument for GOLDFINGER's overall film quality), but more which films are more or less overall worth taking away from the Connery era.

And YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is among the very best the franchise has to offer, in my opinion. It's "epic" Bond at its finest with a thrilling, atmospheric ride. And Connery still works just great in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, IMO of course.

Got ya. Taken from this perspective, I can understand where you are coming from on YOLT. I still prefer TB when it comes to the epic films, but a YOLT works in a different way, although I rank it near the bottom.

I don't really rank THUNDERBALL among the "epic" Bonds. I consider it to be more of a somewhat-epic Bond, because in all honesty, it's not THAT huge. It has a decent scale, but it's only a step above what came before it, and has been paralleled many-a-time afterward.

What I consider the "epic" Bonds are three (maybe four) films: YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, MOONRAKER, and possibly DIE ANOTHER DAY. Films that are terribly massive in scope and crammed with "Bondian" and intriguing elements to create something huge. They're a sub-genre of Bond, IMO, and I think YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is the absolute cream of the crop as far as the "epics" are concerned.

We do, however, agree on YOLT; as I wrote in my previous post, it's an absolute gem.

Edited by Streetworker, 07 February 2006 - 07:34 AM.

[Harmsway]

For me, Thunderball is a bloated bore separating two gems. Yes, I'll admit there are some good lines in Thunderball. But there are better ones in Diamonds Are Forever ("Provided the collars and cuffs match"; ""Lucky for you it wasn't Van Cleefe etc..."; "Don't tell; me - you're St. Peter?"; "I didn't know there was a pool down there"). But DAF is hardly my favourite, either. Individual great lines do not necessarily a great film make. And, for me, Thunderball just drones on and one without any of the tension the movies' first great nuclear hijack flick should exhibit.

Eh, the dialogue in THUNDERBALL is consistently great, IMO - exchange after exchange of solid material. In DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, the dialogue becomes exceedingly campy as the film goes on. THUNDERBALL does drone on somewhat, but with the highlights that THUNDERBALL has, it's able to keep me more than interested.

[Streetworker]

For me, Thunderball is a bloated bore separating two gems. Yes, I'll admit there are some good lines in Thunderball. But there are better ones in Diamonds Are Forever ("Provided the collars and cuffs match"; ""Lucky for you it wasn't Van Cleefe etc..."; "Don't tell; me - you're St. Peter?"; "I didn't know there was a pool down there"). But DAF is hardly my favourite, either. Individual great lines do not necessarily a great film make. And, for me, Thunderball just drones on and one without any of the tension the movies' first great nuclear hijack flick should exhibit.

Eh, the dialogue in THUNDERBALL is consistently great, IMO - exchange after exchange of solid material. In DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, the dialogue becomes exceedingly campy as the film goes on. THUNDERBALL does drone on somewhat, but with the highlights that THUNDERBALL has, it's able to keep me more than interested.

Well, it's all subjective, of course. But I'm afraid the movie has never done it for me. I find it slow and uninvolving with a very insipid heroine and drab villain. On the plus side, Sean Connery does look at his physical peak in Thunderball; especially in those shorts.

[Scottlee]

Well, the people have certainly spoken when it comes to TB and YOLT...

Best Connery Bond film poll
Thunderball - 92
From Russia With Love - 81
Goldfinger - 80
You Only Live Twice - 29
Diamonds Are Forever - 21
Dr No - 16

I agree with the poll. I adore Thunderball compared to You Only Live Twice. The latter, although entertaining, has too many plotholes and absurdities (even for an escapist Bond film) to be ranked as one of the best. By contrast I don't at all mind the slow nature to TB becuase I have a patient personality.

[Harmsway]

I agree with the poll. I adore Thunderball compared to You Only Live Twice. The latter, although entertaining, has too many plotholes and absurdities (even for an escapist Bond film) to be ranked as one of the best.

I can understand saying you don't like YOLT because of absurdities that are too much for you to bear (but I love its scale and bizarreness), but for plotholes? When do plotholes have anything to do with liking or not liking a James Bond film? I mean, every single Bond plot is like a piece of swiss cheese. As long as it entertains, I'm fine.

Well, it's all subjective, of course. But I'm afraid the movie has never done it for me. I find it slow and uninvolving with a very insipid heroine and drab villain. On the plus side, Sean Connery does look at his physical peak in Thunderball; especially in those shorts.

Yes, it is ultimately subjective. Myself, I love Domino and Largo to death (Domino is even my favorite Bond girl!). In fact, I've long thought that THUNDERBALL has the best selection of Bond girls. But that's just me.

Oh well. Not everyone can like THUNDERBALL, and I understand that, and I somewhat understand why. At least we all like Bond!

[Scottlee]

I know that Harmsway, but the plotholes are worse than usual in YOLT. And they seem to stand out more than in other Bond films.

[Streetworker]

Well, the people have certainly spoken when it comes to TB and YOLT...

Best Connery Bond film poll
Thunderball - 92
From Russia With Love - 81
Goldfinger - 80
You Only Live Twice - 29
Diamonds Are Forever - 21
Dr No - 16

Forgive me, but when I see a po-faced phrase like "the people have spoken" applied to something as inconsequential as a popular film series, I want to snigger. And polls like this are pretty meaningless. If, as I suspect, it was a poll conducted amongst fans, they are hardly representative of "the people" (whatever they might be). And if it was a poll taken of ordinary punters, then it could have been skewed by something as simple as Thunderball having been on TV just before the poll was taken.

But appreciation of films is too subjective to be measured by a straw poll. If people like Thunderball, fine. I don't dislike it; but it's my least favourite official Bond - an opinion to which I am entitled and will always defend.

Edited by Streetworker, 07 February 2006 - 07:32 PM.

[Jim]

Well, the people have certainly spoken when it comes to TB and YOLT...

Best Connery Bond film poll
Thunderball - 92
From Russia With Love - 81
Goldfinger - 80
You Only Live Twice - 29
Diamonds Are Forever - 21
Dr No - 16

Forgive me, but when I see a po-faced phrase like "the people have spoken" applied to something as inconsequential as a popular film series, I want to snigger. And polls like this are pretty meaningless. If, as I suspect, it was a poll conducted amongst fans, they are hardly representative of "the people". And if it was a poll taken of ordinary punters, then it could have been skewed by something as simple as Thunderball having been on TV just before the poll was taken.

But appreciation of films is too subjective to be measured by a straw poll. If people like Thunderball, fine. I don't dislike it; but it's my least favourite official Bond - an opinion to which I am entitled and will always defend.

But...but...but...the people have spoken!

(Have you heard people speak? Aren't most of them utterly ghastly?)

[Streetworker]

Well, the people have certainly spoken when it comes to TB and YOLT...

Best Connery Bond film poll
Thunderball - 92
From Russia With Love - 81
Goldfinger - 80
You Only Live Twice - 29
Diamonds Are Forever - 21
Dr No - 16

Forgive me, but when I see a po-faced phrase like "the people have spoken" applied to something as inconsequential as a popular film series, I want to snigger. And polls like this are pretty meaningless. If, as I suspect, it was a poll conducted amongst fans, they are hardly representative of "the people". And if it was a poll taken of ordinary punters, then it could have been skewed by something as simple as Thunderball having been on TV just before the poll was taken.

But appreciation of films is too subjective to be measured by a straw poll. If people like Thunderball, fine. I don't dislike it; but it's my least favourite official Bond - an opinion to which I am entitled and will always defend.

But...but...but...the people have spoken!

(Have you heard people speak? Aren't most of them utterly ghastly?)

Aren't they just? That's the trouble with democracy - it's wasted on the prols...

[Scottlee]

Well, I wouldn't have re-printed it but for the fact that the gap is a mammoth one (92-29). Felt relevant.

I think YOLT would do better in a poll where there was a points system e.g your top Connery Bond film gets 6pts and your worst gets 0pts (and everything in-between).