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Goldeneye: the most overrated Bond Fılm


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#61 hcmv007

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 01:08 PM

Another.. "I don't like..." thread.

Geez. It's a damn good Bond movie, IMHO. I know people dump on the music a lot, but as tdalton said, I find it refreshing that it wasn't the same ol, same ol. I mean, David Arnold does a great job, but all his soundtracks sound the same to me, all of them are just remixes and techno beats of already established music in other films. It is kind of tiring and it makes the film feel rather 'generic' and 'regurgitated' regardless of how unique or fresh the story is.

The atmosphere/environment of the film is just 1000x better than everything that came after it. I've always stated that Brosnan (as good as he is) would have been even better had they written all his films - not with him in mind, but with Dalton in mind. GoldenEye screams Dalton, but is perhaps better with Brosnan than Dalton (although in an alternate timeline I'd love to see Dalton do this one).

I like how they introduced Dench as M (they didn't really play up the whole "shes a woman" thing that they do in all the others), Samantha Bond is a much better Moneypenny than Caroline Bliss - that was a good takeover. I like how Tanner was actually involved - I hate how all the other films in the series have chastised him to either a more-than-minor character or totally written out (at least here he had a good scene). Introduction of Zukovsky as well as all other characters - top notch.

I could go on forever. Are there some bad things about GoldenEye? Sure. All the Bond films have their cons, but GoldenEye is definitely among the better 007 films and definitely has more pros than cons.

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Technical issues prevented me from posting on this Fri, so here is what I got:
What I liked about GoldenEye:

Brosnan finally Bond (and looked great too, btw)
Bond finally working w/ another 00
Xenia Onatopp ((imitating Chris Walken's The Continnental) Wowee!)
Said former 00 being the bad guy
A very realistic fight b/t Bond and bad guy at the end
Natalya (God I am a sucker for cute redheads(she is a redhead right, ah who
cares, she's hot!))
Tina Turner signing

What I disliked:

Impossible airplane stunt in beginning
Villain's motive a bank robbery
Trevalean not dying after falling at least 100 feet (WTF was up w/ that?)
Wade
Minnie Driver signing


All in all, a average Bond movie. Cambell shot the film perfectly, loved his
angles. Car ride w/ Bond and Xenia was excellent. This was the film that was
needed to show Bond could face something new now that the Cold War was over.
It can put me to sleep, but yeah, I still watch it. I think the video game
helped make this a fovorite among Bond fans, though.

#62 doublenoughtspy

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 01:35 PM

A friend who was asked to give Eon notes on the Goldeneye script shared one he gave them.

"You have one chance to sell the world on Pierce as James Bond. Upside down in a Russian toilet stall is not how you want to do it."

I wholeheartedly concur.

#63 Harmsway

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 12:45 AM

A friend who was asked to give Eon notes on the Goldeneye script shared one he gave them.

"You have one chance to sell the world on Pierce as James Bond.  Upside down in a Russian toilet stall is not how you want to do it."

I wholeheartedly concur.

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I thought it was great. Heck, that whole pretitle was downright fantastic.

#64 Red Grant 15

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 12:09 PM

I disagree. I think Goldeneye was the beginning of the action oriented Bond films.

#65 Loomis

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 01:57 PM

[quote name='Harmsway' date='4 October 2005 - 00:45'][quote name='doublenoughtspy' date='3 October 2005 - 08:35']A friend who was asked to give Eon notes on the Goldeneye script shared one he gave them.

"You have one chance to sell the world on Pierce as James Bond.

#66 Moore Not Less

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 07:48 PM

[quote name='Harmsway' date='4 October 2005 - 00:45'][quote name='doublenoughtspy' date='3 October 2005 - 08:35']A friend who was asked to give Eon notes on the Goldeneye script shared one he gave them.

"You have one chance to sell the world on Pierce as James Bond.

#67 doublenoughtspy

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 08:00 PM

Loomis,

Don't you think having the character introduced in a toilet stall is disrespectful?

Not very elegant?

BTW, the animal on top of Connery's head for GF was originally scripted to be a dead dog.

#68 Turn

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 08:10 PM

Never really dwelled on the Brosnan in the stall intro, but I thought it was one of the best precredit sequences of the series up until they just had to go that extra step and have him fly into the plane. Sometimes less is more and it would have made that sequence top three for me.

#69 killkenny kid

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 11:59 PM

The only thing overrated about Goldeneye. Was the different soundtrack.

#70 Trevelyan_Moneypenny

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Posted 15 October 2005 - 01:15 AM

God, not another one of those "I don't like threads..."

I really like Goldeneye. It is arguable that without the success of that film, no one would be posting here because this site would not exist.

In the 6 year "drought" of cinema Bond between 1989 and 1995, I wondered what the studio could do to "commercialize" Bond, if he returned to screens. Here's a list of what I came up with then and it still could apply if Sony really wanted to absolutely milk James Bond.

Cast an American as Bond
Set the Bond movie entirely in the US
Give Bond a young sidekick (think of the demographic spread and merchandising avenues)
Fill up the soundtrack with rock songs by artists who just submit songs with no reference to the films
Delete title sequence (a la Die Hards, Lethal Weapons, action movies du jour)
Cast really big, hackneyed stars as villains to play it over the top (Batman, Dick Tracy)
Have direct to video sequels

There were more but I have forgotten the less good ones...

Goldeneye did NONE of the above.

Brosnan, presenting a character filled, shaded version of Ian Fleming's James Bond, a refinement but definitely following on from Timothy Dalton's masterful incarnation, popularized the character achieving success undreamt of for the character at this stage in his filmic career

The script captured the zeitgeist, was appropriately but not slavishly deferential to the past and discreetly updated the Bond dynamic, with innovations such as:

Judi Dench as M,
The thrilling, kinetic, energizing camerwork
The layered, tonal, atmospheric photography
The wit and style missing from the Dalton films
Dialogue that had pith and quotability
An overlooked, under-rated score which took Bond forward

Campbell was hungry for success and had done his homework. He really nailed Bond in the best directed adventure since OHMSS.

Sure, GE has flaws. All Bond films do.

But judged for what it was at the time, what it achieved and how it could have gone wrong, Goldenye was not a success, it was a MIRACLE

Why does no-one start a "Does anyone else love..." thread?

ACE

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Here, here! Goldeneye was the best! If you check out the polls page that says which movie was the best, most voted for Goldeneye! How d'you like them apples, lol!

#71 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 11:29 PM

a couple of oddities:

Why does Bond tell Xenia he's a "Commander" when they first meet? Especially since he wasn't supposed to get too close and personal per MoneyPenny's intructions? That sounds like some pretty half a## 'spying' if you ask me.And insubordination.

Wade: Bond, you do any gardening? Why is this line in this film? They shoot little moments like that about 50 times so I wonder what the hell the "inside joke" may be...when I first saw it I thought it was a reference to the 19th centry ornithologist James Bond whom Fleming got the name of 007(referenced in DAD).

#72 Harmsway

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 02:02 AM

a couple of oddities:

Why does Bond tell Xenia he's a "Commander" when they first meet? Especially since he wasn't supposed to get too close and personal per MoneyPenny's intructions? That sounds like some pretty half a## 'spying' if you ask me.And insubordination.

Wade: Bond, you do any gardening? Why is this line in this film? They shoot little moments like that about 50 times so I wonder what the hell the "inside joke" may be...when I first saw it I thought it was a reference to the 19th centry ornithologist James Bond whom Fleming got the name of 007(referenced in DAD).

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Well firstly, Bond tells Xenya he's a Commander BEFORE he ever gets the message from Moneypenny.

Secondly, the Wade line was supposed to be a greater part of Wade's characterization, where you find out the man is quite the avid gardner. This theme is carried on in Feirstein's first TOMORROW NEVER DIES draft (available online). Unfortunately, it's not very well done and the only other reference is when he smells tobacco plants after meeting Bond in Cuba.

#73 SeanValen00V

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 02:45 AM

GE was a promising start to the brosnan era, the problem was the following films didn't execute themselfs as good, while brosnan got more confident, the producers got less confident lol on scripts, and took the formula a bit for granted.


I wish we could of seen Michael France early script for Goldeneye, written for Dalton, alot of Dalton magic is in GE, so it's fitting in some ways people see it as a promising start for brosnan, but the film probabley could of done with a experienced Bond in Dalton. If you look at the living daylights, Dalton's first bond film, the way it's done, it feels like he's been around for a while, doesn't feel like a introduction, but you know it's a new bond after roger since you knew roger. Brosnan's goldeneye got a little nostalgic with having the old aston db5 back, I would of prefered a new aston, once again some of that need to celebrate the old films in new films, they did the same in dad, rocket packs and stuff.

#74 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 03:52 AM

a couple of oddities:

Why does Bond tell Xenia he's a "Commander" when they first meet? Especially since he wasn't supposed to get too close and personal per MoneyPenny's intructions? That sounds like some pretty half a## 'spying' if you ask me.And insubordination.

Wade: Bond, you do any gardening? Why is this line in this film? They shoot little moments like that about 50 times so I wonder what the hell the "inside joke" may be...when I first saw it I thought it was a reference to the 19th centry ornithologist James Bond whom Fleming got the name of 007(referenced in DAD).

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Well firstly, Bond tells Xenya he's a Commander BEFORE he ever gets the message from Moneypenny.

Secondly, the Wade line was supposed to be a greater part of Wade's characterization, where you find out the man is quite the avid gardner. This theme is carried on in Feirstein's first TOMORROW NEVER DIES draft (available online). Unfortunately, it's not very well done and the only other reference is when he smells tobacco plants after meeting Bond in Cuba.

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But when has he ever announced himself as a Commander? And the Wade doesn't make sense in the film-maybe the novel but we don't know what the hell he's talking about. :)

#75 Carver

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 01:50 PM

Goldeneye has always been one of my favourite Bond films. Sure, it has bad elements like all films do, and the introduction of Wade as a new "ally" for Bond wasn't a good move. The could (and should) have brought back Felix Leiter. Wade didn't really seem like a CIA operative during GE, and I reckon having Felix there instead would have filled the role a lot better. The BMW idea was just stupid, and it didn't really have much of a role in the film at all, it was basically there for the "traffic laws" line.
The PTS is great IMO. Brosnan's introduction doesn't have to be classy-Moore's wasn't. Being on a mission, Bond had to get into the facility somehow and through the bogs was obviously the only way. He doesn't have to be classy whilst on a mission, I think they did it perfectly. Otherwise, I can't really see why people think it's overrated, it's easily in the top 5.

#76 Lounge Lizard

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 03:57 PM

GoldenEye is my favourite Brosnan Bond movie- mind you, that is not saying much, since I was bored to death by the last three. GoldenEye is a movie that wants to be liked, perhaps desperately, and it was released at a time when people where ready to really like another Bond movie. The producers definitely struck a chord with their nostalgic audience, rehashing elements from movies like Goldfinger and giving those an ironic, self-reflexive slant (the haystack tumble with Pussy becomes a kinky sauna brawl with Xenia, the reckless Aston Martin chasing of Tilly is rethought as a chase in which Bond's reckless behavior is analyzed by a female psychologist). Yes, the movie was a little desperate in reaching out to its audience, and got overcooked in the process: I was never really fond of Cumming's Boris Grishenko, he's a patsy that only serves for broad putdowns, like the Sheriff Pepper character from LALD and TMWTGG; the killing-by-thighs of lucky old Admiral Farrell was too much of a nod to 1990s erotic thriller kinkiness, and it never really worked, no matter how many times they reshot it; Bond wrecking half of St. Petersburg with a tank was simply too much (and it set the standard for the 'property destruction' with which the action scenes in the Brosnan era have strangely become synonimous); the Q scene owed more to The Naked Gun than to Bond, with Brosnan even likening it to 'a John Cleese farce' in The Making of GoldenEye- a self-fullfilling prophecy? And then there's those little things that make me cringe everytime, like Jack Wade's 'okay, showtime'.

But from a technical point of view, GoldenEye delivered. Martin Campbell is strictly style-over-substance, but he displayed a raw instinct for the material. The shots, and therefore the film, really 'moved', thanks to the efforts of editor Terry Rawlings, and despite the reliance on close-ups that scale down the proceedings somewhat. The lighting by DoP Phil Meheux was warm and atmospheric, even lending some exotism to otherwise mundane locations (much of Russia was shot in England, and I also believe the Cuban jungle scenes were studio work). Monte Carlo and its casino were gloriously used, avenging the rather dreary appearance of the city and its main attraction in rival production NSNA. I adored the entire Monte Carlo sequence, right up to the theft of the Tiger helicopter and Bond arriving too late at the scene of the crime. Some of my other favourite sequences were the questioning scene with Minister Mishkin, and the tense confrontations between Bond and 006- first in Statue Park, then on the missile train.

Simon Crane did great stunt duties on GoldenEye: in my opinion, Brosnan never fought better as he did in the final punch-up with 006. Because of Crane's tight cooperation with Campbell, Meheux and Rawlings, even the smaller action sequences looked dangerous and impressive. The BMW was a letdown of course, especially since none of its much-vaunted tricks were used, but it didn't really matter to me, since I personally don't consider the gadgets to be the essence of Bond, as some do.

Brosnan himself was, well, mostly all right. His popping up in a Soviet loo was fitting for a Roger Moorish don't-take-me-seriously attitude to the Bond character, but it wasn't really followed through, despite Brosnan's smooth handling of some less than witty one-liners. From the start, Brosnan was supposed to be 'The Hybrid', the man who had it all- but offered nothing new. Being hailed as a small-screen Cary Grant in the early 1980s, he had suffered from an almost unreasonable amount of identification with the Bond role since 1986. As I said in an earlier post, GoldenEye tricked me into mistaking Brosnan's lack of expression for admirable minimalism, and therefore into believing Brosnan could grow into a plausible movie Bond. What struck me most about him in GoldenEye was the absurdity, or perhaps the abstraction of his Bond- a lean, overdressed traditionalist, like a quill in the age of Microsoft, quite the 'stiff-:) Brit' that Jack Wade describes -but also the fact that he was more an object of desire than his Bond girls. Brosnan even had a gratuitous semi-nude scene in the sauna, which was probably staged as a special gesture towards the female viewer, another example of the makers inverting Bond movie laws. Here, the producers immediately and smartly exploited Brosnan's one (and perhaps only) real item of star quality: he is a terrific, unblinking poster boy.

Sean Bean was, in my opinion, the best villain of the Brosnan era, playing Iago to Bond's... Othello? As 006, Bean was physically imposing, arrogant and sarcastic, with a hint of hurt pride; a believable man, and yet an evil bastard beyond redemption. Far better than the pathetic Woody Allen / Jimmy Bond type character that Jonathan Pryce got stuck with in TND ('Not to me! Not to me!'), the wasted opportunity of Renard and his potential for terror and violence in TWINE, or the less than sure ham job of evil frat boy Toby Stephens in DAD. And of course there was Famke Janssen as Xenia, who lit up the screen and managed to be really feisty and violent. As in TLD, the 'main girl' was an Eastern-European wallflower, but Izabella Scorupco milked the part for all its worth. M and Miss Moneypenny were splendidly recast. And while I value the John Barry scores from the early years of Bond above all (to me, they make up 50 % of those movies), I thought Eric Serra's 'industrial' score lent the proceedings a welcome dark edge, especially during the pre-titles sequence.

So, all in all, GoldenEye is a very mixed bag to me, much like Octopussy was in 1983. If one says it belongs in the top 5 of Bond movies, one probably overrates it; the top ten, well, perhaps. My viewing experience will always be coloured by the thrilling 'Bond is Back Vibe' I got when I first saw it in the cinema. In a way, GoldenEye's success could never be really repeated, since its greatest achievement was in the way it walked the fine line between autodeconstruction and hommage- I hope the overhaul of Casino Royale will really shake up the Bond series and finally secure an interesting and authentic future for our hero.

Edited by Lounge Lizard, 04 November 2005 - 11:39 PM.


#77 Q'ute

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 08:07 AM

Alan Cumming (Boris) really annoyed me, as well as the over the top, sky dive after the plane.
but its still better than Rogers films

#78 Streetworker

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 08:19 AM

Overrated in what sense? Surely not as one of those pivotal movies in the series (such as Goldfinger or The Spy Who Loved Me)? GoldenEye may not be my favourite Bond movie - actually, and I'm ducking my head now before I'm lynched, I prefer Brosnan's other three, with TND being my favourite - and the pace is very uneven. But, but... there's a Flemingian spirit within GoldenEye that I just can't help responding to and it's found in the quieter scenes; Bond walking through the mime act to spy on Xenia and the Admiral; Bond and Natalya on the beach (one of my all-time favourite scenes in the series).

TND had much more energy and chutzpah; TWINE was a brave (and terribly underarrted) stab at a character-driven story; and DAD was a fun romp with a gleeful self-awareness of how ridiculous and overblown it was. But I'm not sure how one could characterise GoldenEye.

#79 Streetworker

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 08:22 AM

[quote name='Harmsway' date='4 October 2005 - 00:45'][quote name='doublenoughtspy' date='3 October 2005 - 08:35']A friend who was asked to give Eon notes on the Goldeneye script shared one he gave them.

"You have one chance to sell the world on Pierce as James Bond.

#80 DavidSomerset

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 08:42 AM

[quote name='Streetworker' date='4 November 2005 - 16:22']
[quote name='Harmsway' date='4 October 2005 - 00:45'][quote name='doublenoughtspy' date='3 October 2005 - 08:35']A friend who was asked to give Eon notes on the Goldeneye script shared one he gave them.

"You have one chance to sell the world on Pierce as James Bond.

#81 Arch Stanton

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 08:45 AM

I love GoldenEye. It's the movie that turned me into a Bond fan. I love the movie, and I LOVE the score. My opinion anyways. To each their own...

#82 killkenny kid

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 09:07 AM

Welcome to the team, Arch Stanton.

#83 Arch Stanton

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 09:14 AM

Thanks you, killkenny kid.

#84 Qwerty

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 01:31 PM

Yes, welcome to the CBn Forums. :)

#85 Scottlee

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 03:54 PM

I can't remember the last time I commented on GE in these forums. Anyway, my opinion probably hasn't changed since whenever that was. I don't think GE is anything special as a Bond film other than being the one that brought the franchise back to prosperity.

TND and TWINE are better Bond films. GE has too many little inconsistancies that get on your nerves to be a true classic.

#86 GreggAllinson

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 11:36 PM

I fell asleep when I saw it in the theatre. After the crazed, bleak Bond of Licence to Kill, Goldeneye just seemed sorta boring. That said, I would like to see it again now, to see how it aged and if it's better than I remember it being. The tedium of TND and the embarassment of DAD (haven't bothered with TWINE) don't suggest great things, but still...

#87 Qwerty

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Posted 05 November 2005 - 11:40 PM

Alan Cumming (Boris) really annoyed me, as well as the over the top, sky dive after the plane.
but its still better than Rogers films

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Not a fan of any of Moore's? :)

#88 Andrew

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 12:35 AM

I think GoldenEye is overrated but that doesn't mean it's not a good film! It's the only Brosnan film that I enjoyed and the only one of his films that I thought had strands of Fleming in it.

It's the perfect film to draw in an audience. It has quite a mix of action, romance and mild humor(compared to Brosnan's other outings).

It's also the only Brosnan film to really have any character depth for Bond, some claim that The World Is Not Enough does but I disagree. The character of Trevelyn really helps give depth to Bond, sure it's not as much as the Dalton days but it's still good enough. I really wish that Dalton had starred in this one, I still think it would've been a success.

This film showed so much potential for Brosnan and his era too, it's too bad that both of these turned for the worst.

GoldenEye is one of the films that I put in my own personal Bond continuity which includes...

Dr. No
From Russia With Love
Goldfinger
Thunderball
On Her Majesty’s Secret Service
For Your Eyes Only
The Living Daylights
Licence To Kill
GoldenEye

#89 Lounge Lizard

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 12:43 AM

GoldenEye is one of the films that I put in my own personal Bond continuity which includes...

Dr. No
From Russia With Love
Goldfinger
Thunderball
On Her Majesty’s Secret Service
For Your Eyes Only
The Living Daylights
Licence To Kill
GoldenEye

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Is your continuity system based on quality or is there some other logic at work, Andrew? Presuming there is, I understand the sudden jump from OHMSS to FYEO (Tracy / Blofeld / revenge), and I understand why you chose to ignore YOLT in that respect, but what happened to the other Moore films for example? I'm curious.

#90 Andrew

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 04:50 PM

My system is based on how well those films were able to portray Fleming's character and his world. I didn't think that You Only Live Twice and Moore's films did a good job of that but thats just my personal belief. Quality definatly has something to do with it because I think the films that did what I talked about were the best made.

I hope that I'll be able to add Casino Royale to that list.

So to sum it up, it all comes down to Fleming-ness of the films :)