53 replies to this topic

[Righty007]

Why is Never Say Never Again so bad?

- James Bond is retired.
- Kevin McClory
- Mr. Bean
- Stupid video game duel.
- It's a bad Thunderball remake.
- Stupid flying machine.
- Black Felix Leiter

The list is endless.

[Johnboy007]

Here we go again...

[Turn]

I wouldn't go as far to say that Connery is the BEST actor to take the role (I don't think it's fair to put any Bond actor on a pedestal, since they all brought different aspects to the series. If you want to get technical, Roger Moore has contributed the most to the series off-screen (and unlike Connery, hasn't ever tried to disown the 007 role, but that's for a different thread)) In addition, it's not only because Bond is retired that makes the movie so bad, it's the fact that it just copies TB. They could have changed the story a lot more from TB and it might have been acceptable. I would love to see an EoN-ized version of NSNA (with a redone score, a gun-barrel, a credit sequence etc... Maybe there might be a chance I'll watch it then, but besides that, I won't be caught dead watching that pathetic, abyssmal garbage!!!

I'll rephrase the first part: Connery is probably the best loved James Bond, the Bond who set the standards the others are compared with. The one people wanted to see back in the role in 1983. No question on Roger's contribution to the role and to the series. I've said many times on these board he's the best ambassador this series has ever had. But during his entire run as Bond, there were still people who longed to see Connery as Bond again.

As I said above, we would need a very in-depth documentary feature to find what the stipulations were the NSNA creative team had to deal with do in their film. Sure it copies TB because it had to.

Then again, you could say that about scores of Eon films that have copied each other: YOLT, TSWLM and TND are a lot alike and there are some who think GF and AVTAK are a lot alike in some ways. It's the non-Eon factors that make it interesting, although I'll admit interesting doesn't necessarily mean good. My bottom line is I'd rather have the film out there than not.

[DLibrasnow]

I thing that Righty is, well...right! NSNA is nauseatingly horrible. I'd rather have my eyes scratched out by a rabid baboon (which is what it feels like to watch it) than have to watch that movie at any time. Thunderball is perfect in every form of possible development, and I'll take perfect instead of some [censored]ed up experiment like NSNA anyday!!!

Thunderball is a piece of compared to the far superior Never Say Never Again

[DLibrasnow]

- Black Felix Leiter

Nowhere in the Fleming books does it say that Felix Leiter is white. So, all I can surmise is that this is blatent racism. In which case I refuse to debate the merits of Never Say Never Again with you.

[bryonalston]

I agree with your post Turn, however the difference between TSWLM and NSNA is that TSWLM improved upon YOLT, AVTAK filled up some of the plot holes from GF and TND was an anniversary film, so it naturally has some elements from previous films (if you examine films released on the same "digit" you'll notice some homages, like between TB(1965) and GE(1995 or all of the movies released on the 7's) NSNA did not improve upon TB because there was simply nothing to improve on. They could have changed the story around a lot more to make it more original is all I'm saying.

BTW: Why was McClory allowed to use the character of James Bond in NSNA? If he said that EoN couldn't use SPECTRE, then couldn't they just say that he can't use the character of James Bond, which they own (I presume?) I would have loved to see a movie devoted to SPECTRE and their shenanigans, or simply a movie about Blofeld.

[bryonalston]

I thing that Righty is, well...right! NSNA is nauseatingly horrible. I'd rather have my eyes scratched out by a rabid baboon (which is what it feels like to watch it) than have to watch that movie at any time. Thunderball is perfect in every form of possible development, and I'll take perfect instead of some [censored]ed up experiment like NSNA anyday!!!

Thunderball is a piece of compared to the far superior Never Say Never Again

Do you have any evidence to support your absurd and completely outrageous claim? I honestly can't think of ANYTHING that would make you say something like that.

[DLibrasnow]

Well its irrelevent....after Righty's post above I quit CBn.

[Mister Asterix]

- Black Felix Leiter

Nowhere in the Fleming books does it say that Felix Leiter is white. So, all I can surmise is that this is blatent racism. In which case I refuse to debate the merits of Never Say Never Again with you.

(Mr. Big speaking of Bond and Leiter)

[ACE]

Well its irrelevent....after Righty's post above I quit CBn.

I do hope you are joking, DLibrasnow.

I am not the world's biggest fan of NSNA but it has many redeemable elements, some noble failures and some interesting innovations as well as great performances by the leads coupled with pithy, witty and memorable dialogue. Certainly, I think the bravado of NSNA had a knock on effect on the colour and flamboyance of AVTAK's villainy.

The colour of Felix Leiter has never been an issue. Certainly, Bernie Casey is fine in the part which was written in the style of Eon Felix's rather than Bond's buddy and pal. However, I think Connery remarked, that no-one remembers Felix so they made him black so he'd be a touch more memorable. Now, when you read press about Felix, the colour change is the one thing they mention.

Leiter, as written by Fleming, was white. Sandy haired Texan, who looked a bit like Frank Sinatra. However, since Eon have never been that faithful not only to his looks but to his character and role (Leiter was best portrayed by Nutter I think and also David Hedison who captured the friendship side well). Therefore, why people are so protective towards his colour and nothing else, is questionable.

I hope Moneypenny changed your quit slip to a holiday chit, DLibrasnow.

ACE

[Loomis]

I can't imagine why it would since it's not a James Bond film.

It's not part of the Eon series, granted, but then who's saying it is? However, it is a James Bond film - merely a stand-alone one that isn't part of any series. The hero's name is James Bond. It's a remake of THUNDERBALL. It's based on something Ian Fleming helped to write, yep, the same Ian Fleming who created James Bond. It features Q, M, Moneypenny.... your belief that NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is not a James Bond film flies in the face of reality. It's like an ultrahardcore neocon trying to argue that France isn't a country. What you mean is that it's not a James Bond film that you like.

[Mister Asterix]

I can't imagine why it would since it's not a James Bond film.

It's not part of the Eon series, granted, but then who's saying it is? However, it is a James Bond film - merely a stand-alone one that isn't part of any series. The hero's name is James Bond. It's a remake of THUNDERBALL. It's based on something Ian Fleming helped to write, yep, the same Ian Fleming who created James Bond. It features Q, M, Moneypenny.... your belief that NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is not a James Bond film flies in the face of reality. It's like an ultrahardcore neocon trying to argue that France isn't a country. What you mean is that it's not a James Bond film that you like.

It could be argued that Never Say Never Again is more of a James Bond film than all but one other film. Only Never Say Never Again and Thunderball are based on material that Ian Fleming helped write for the express reason of creating a James Bond film.

[K1Bond007]

I can't imagine why it would since it's not a James Bond film.

It's not part of the Eon series, granted, but then who's saying it is? However, it is a James Bond film - merely a stand-alone one that isn't part of any series. The hero's name is James Bond. It's a remake of THUNDERBALL. It's based on something Ian Fleming helped to write, yep, the same Ian Fleming who created James Bond. It features Q, M, Moneypenny.... your belief that NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is not a James Bond film flies in the face of reality. It's like an ultrahardcore neocon trying to argue that France isn't a country. What you mean is that it's not a James Bond film that you like.

It could be argued that Never Say Never Again is more of a James Bond film than all but one other film. Only Never Say Never Again and Thunderball are based on material that Ian Fleming helped write for the express reason of creating a James Bond film.

And For Your Eyes Only is the best James Bond television episode too.....

[Athena007]

I think of Never Say Never Again as a James Bond film. It's just not an official one. But I personally don't like Thunderball or Never Say Never Again as a whole (of course there are aspects that I do enjoy, but still, I'd rather watch a different 007 film) so... *shrug* ...guess that makes me "evil."

[Syndicate]

Yes it's not part of the Eon series, it not consider a offical one. Everyone sees it that way. I consider it a rouge James Bond movie, just like what is called a rouge agent and a rouge nation. Maybe MGM/UA also consider it that also that is why their logo is no where to be seen on the cover art, and the start of the movie. I don't even put the DVD with the other James Bond movies. I put it with Mission Impossibale, Johnny English, XxX and other movies that are consider super spy movie. The old Casino Royale, I also consider it a rouge James Bond movie. Well enough talk about Never Say Never Again, let get back to the offical movies's new rerelease in 2006 or whenever with your views and so mine is also already posted if want to read it and commment on it, just go back to the first page.

[North Scorpion]

You're not evil, Athena...don't worry. I'm sure you enjoy Dr. Who discussions on the same topic.

Edited by North Scorpion, 14 August 2005 - 03:31 AM.

[DLibrasnow]

Well its irrelevent....after Righty's post above I quit CBn.

I do hope you are joking, DLibrasnow.

I am not the world's biggest fan of NSNA but it has many redeemable elements, some noble failures and some interesting innovations as well as great performances by the leads coupled with pithy, witty and memorable dialogue. Certainly, I think the bravado of NSNA had a knock on effect on the colour and flamboyance of AVTAK's villainy.

The colour of Felix Leiter has never been an issue. Certainly, Bernie Casey is fine in the part which was written in the style of Eon Felix's rather than Bond's buddy and pal. However, I think Connery remarked, that no-one remembers Felix so they made him black so he'd be a touch more memorable. Now, when you read press about Felix, the colour change is the one thing they mention.

Leiter, as written by Fleming, was white. Sandy haired Texan, who looked a bit like Frank Sinatra. However, since Eon have never been that faithful not only to his looks but to his character and role (Leiter was best portrayed by Nutter I think and also David Hedison who captured the friendship side well). Therefore, why people are so protective towards his colour and nothing else, is questionable.

I hope Moneypenny changed your quit slip to a holiday chit, DLibrasnow.

ACE

Sorry ACE.

The only reason I am here now is because Bondian alerted me to Evans post.

I should have clarified that I was referring to the book Thunderball on which the movie Never Say Never Again was based. I think it was producer Jack Schwartzman who remarked that Felix may have been referenced as white in other Fleming books, but in the one that they held the rights to his ethnicity was never mentioned.

It's been a good three year run here on CBn, but it's at an end.

[Loomis]

Sorry to read that. I've always enjoyed your posts very much, and I'm sure your contributions will be missed by quite a few people here. Still, your choice. To borrow a phrase from Bondian, all the best.

[Bondian]

I think we all from time-to-time suffer from Internet fatique. It's not as bad as DVT ( deep vein thrombosis ) but things can get to you.

I'm sure Darren will be back, if not, I'll stick a couple of cockroaches down his underpants. Er, perhaps he should do it.

Seriously though, too much Internet can be bad for your health. We sit down in the same position for far too long, drink far too much coffee and ignor the real world.

If anyone does seriously have a problem, I can recommend a great site that can help. Mood disorders can be a problem, but the good folks over at Building Foundations can help.

It's OK. I didn't join them because of any problems myself ( yeah right ) it's just that I help them out installing skins/modifications and help with forum problems and I'm Site Development Coordinator Admin. ( yes, finger in many pies ).

Anyway, back on topic. I cannot wait to get my hands on these DVDs.

All the best,

Cheers,


Ian

[Mister Asterix]

As fascinating as Darren quiting again and again and again is, can we get back on topic. What was the topic anyway?

[Bondian]

I cannot remember, but this is a good talking point.

[spynovelfan]

I should have clarified that I was referring to the book Thunderball on which the movie Never Say Never Again was based. I think it was producer Jack Schwartzman who remarked that Felix may have been referenced as white in other Fleming books, but in the one that they held the rights to his ethnicity was never mentioned.

Moot, I know, but that's an absurd argument, and the pedant in me doesn't want to let it stand. If Fleming had not given a physical description of M in GOLDFINGER and he was then portrayed as a black man in the film, it would be perfectly reasonable - and not racist - to object to the film needlessly changing an established character's colour. Leiter may well not have been specifically mentioned as being white in every single novel of Fleming's in which he appears, but it's a *series*. As it's the same character, one can assume he doesn't actually change colour from novel to novel! Accusing someone of racism purely on the basis of their objecting to this is extremely presumptuous - even more so if you get your facts wrong and, when found out, backtrack in this way. It's a subjective view, which can easily be disagreed with in a reasonable way, but accusing someone of racism on the basis of the posts in this thread is a low (and very quick on the draw) shot. If it were me who'd had this treatment, all I'd have to say would be: 'How very dare you?'

Rant over.

[Loomis]

If it were me who'd had this treatment, all I'd have to say would be: 'How very dare you?'

Nah, you should just say: "Am I bothered, though?"

[Bon-san]

I wouldn't go as far to say that Connery is the BEST actor to take the role (I don't think it's fair to put any Bond actor on a pedestal, since they all brought different aspects to the series. If you want to get technical, Roger Moore has contributed the most to the series off-screen (and unlike Connery, hasn't ever tried to disown the 007 role, but that's for a different thread)) In addition, it's not only because Bond is retired that makes the movie so bad, it's the fact that it just copies TB. They could have changed the story a lot more from TB and it might have been acceptable. I would love to see an EoN-ized version of NSNA (with a redone score, a gun-barrel, a credit sequence etc... Maybe there might be a chance I'll watch it then, but besides that, I won't be caught dead watching that pathetic, abyssmal garbage!!!

At the risk of appearing condescending, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the many facts surrounding the history of the film scripts written jointly by Ian Fleming, Kevin McClory and Jack Whittingham. After Fleming wrote the novel Thunderball, based on the ideas developed in the aforementioned scripts, without crediting the contributions of McClory and Whittingham, things blew up big time in Fleming's face. The litigation that ensued heavily influenced the filming of both Thunderball and NSNA, and are directly on point as to the criticisms you have of NSNA.