133 replies to this topic

[Spoon]

To answer your question Shatterhand, if I could pick ONLY ONE Bond film to show someone in hopes to get them captivated into the series, I would pick TSWLM.

I agree with that.

Still and all, I don't quite get the "does anyone else think...?" or "am I the only one who...?" topics. Does other people agreeing with you make your opinion more valid? No, it doesn't; your opinion stands on its own. Start out by stating how you feel about the film itself, and why. If you do intend to convince, that will be a lot more successful than arguing about what the fandom believes. That's just MY opinion, of course.

[bryonalston]

The reason why I posted was because it seems odd for a Bond fan like me to despise of the blueprint Bond film the way I do. If I hated TMWTGG or DAD (which I do) then I wouldn't go making some big case out of it, because it's common for people to dislike those movies, so I'm not alone there. But I wanted to know if I was missing something from GF. Something that would make me like it more. I used to hate OHMSS too, but when I came here to CBn and found out that a lot of people used to dislike it, but have come to like it now, I figured out WHY they changed their minds. I rewatched it with an open mind and came to like it. Part of me wants to like GF, but I honestly don't see what everyone else sees. So, now I want to be enlightened and have my eyes opened, so that I can come to appreciate GF like everyone else does (or to at least be offered some explaination as to why I should like it. So far, people have been attacking me and my opinion, so that's not really helping)

[JackLordIsFelix]

I love Goldfinger, but it has many flaws. As has been mentioned before, Bond really doesn't do anything -- it seems like the only way he makes an impact on the plot is by raping Pussy Galore (let's call a spade a spade, OK). On the other hand, there is something of a sexist thrill involved in the fact that Bond's "turning" of Pussy was the event that ultimately caused Goldfinger's plot to fail. In this movie, more than any other, Bond's sexual appeal (as aggressive as it was) was his greatest weapon.

[bryonalston]

I love Goldfinger, but it has many flaws. As has been mentioned before, Bond really doesn't do anything -- it seems like the only way he makes an impact on the plot is by raping Pussy Galore (let's call a spade a spade, OK). On the other hand, there is something of a sexist thrill involved in the fact that Bond's "turning" of Pussy was the event that ultimately caused Goldfinger's plot to fail. In this movie, more than any other, Bond's sexual appeal (as aggressive as it was) was his greatest weapon.

I couldn't have said it better myself! Bond doesn't have much of a role at all. He doesn't do anything to stop Goldfinger's plan. He doesn't stop the raid of Fort Knox from happening. He doesn't even disarm the atomic bomb. If GF is the prototype spy movie, why doesn't Bond do any REAL spying? All he does is follow Goldfinger around, gets on his nerves, and gets captured...twice! AVTAK's plot filled up all of the other holes in GF's plot.

Edited by bryonalston, 06 July 2005 - 11:02 PM.

[JackLordIsFelix]

Oh wow, Bryan -- those are dangerous words around here. But don't worry -- there are enough AVTAK-lovers (including myself) to back you up...

[bryonalston]

Thank you JackLordIsFelix. Finally! I felt like I was gonna get lynch mobbed if I kept on going!

[licensetostudy]

I thought I read somewhere that Connery said that he felt proudest of TB, or that he liked making TB the best, but it wouldn't surprise me that he liked FRWL the best, since that is his best film. Either way, they still both outdo GF, or at least in my opinion.

People can change their minds. There have been times where I felt Licence To Kill was one of the best Bond movies, and other times where I believed it to be one of the worst. Thunderball is 40 years old, and Connery could change his opinion about his pictures through out those years. To my knowledge, Thunderball was Connery's favorite in the 60s while FRWL is his favorite today.

[bryonalston]

But either way, over time he has still stuck to FRWL and TB, and not GF. If Ian Fleming, Broccoli and Connery were ALL most proud of FRWL, then that's certainly worth a lot.

[licensetostudy]

I'm not saying that Goldfinger is the worst Bond film, but I honestly don't get what people see in this movie.

It is mostly psychological. People don't often think for themselves and mindlessly think like others because they want to fit into a group, and it is easy for them to think like the majority. People think The Wizard of Oz is one of the greatest films only because they have heard others say so; but I find very little character development and the film feels rushed which makes it lose tension. Woody Allen explains this way of thinking in A Life In Film and he talks about people having seen a new James Bond movie and how they react to others opinions. One guy might talk to a group of people who have seen a new Bond movie and this group hates the picture. As this guy is talking to these people, he is easily convinced by them that the film sucks and he says things like, "Oh yeah, I hated the movie because there wasn't enough action." This guy all of a sudden turns to a group who liked the new Bond movie and quickly changes his mind and says, "Yeah, it was pretty good because it had a great story, the acting was good, and there were a few good action scenes. People have just gotten it into their minds that The Wizard of Oz, Gone With the Wind or The Exorcist are great films because they have heard too many people say they loved these films and without question and quite mindlessly start believing they are great without allowing themselves to see the flaws in those pictures. This is the reason for why Goldfinger is considered to be the greatest Bond movie by too many people, and it is also the reason for why Die Another Day is disliked by so many people on internet fan communities.

[bryonalston]

I couldn't have said it better myself. I think that the people at the AFI should read your post. In all of their countdown shows, they tend to always go with an old fashioned way of thinking regarding their choices (how is "Frankly my dear...I just don't give a damn" the best quote in film history? It's not.) Fhe Bond movies have gotten ripped off on every single one of those countdowns, and for once, the general public agrees (concerning the fact that "Bond...James Bond" wasn't in the top ten, much less the top five.)

[00-FAN008]

I think that the people at the AFI should read your post.

Yeah, those top quotes in movie history weren't all that great. Number one should have been that one from The Jazz Singer, or "Here's looking at you, kid." from Casablanca.

And where was "Luke, I am your father."???

(Or was it there and I just missed it?)

[bryonalston]

i thought that "Shaken, not stirred" would be up there as well, along with "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"

If I was part of the AFI, I would produce a special specifically for James Bond, highlighting the best parts of every aspect of the series, from villains to stunts. From Bond girls to gadgets. From one-liners to songs. That kind of thing would more than make up for the lack of respect that they have shown the series.

[Strangways]

Bryon, hate is a very strong word. So is despise. Do you really hate and despise GF? Or do you just 'not prefer' the film, but hate and despise the automatic public adulation of the film? I'll go along with you part of the ways. I don't hate Goldfinger, but when looking at the dvd cabinet, it sure isn't the first Bond film I'd choose.

We tend to look at these movies with hindsight now, and with the perspective of fans who can critique the films individually and as a set. The general public just knows that Bond is a suave secret agent who sleeps with every woman he meets, drinks martinis, and saves the world by using cool gadgets. They have been programmed by the current pop culture to 'believe' that the best of these films is GF and the best portrayer is Connery, regardless of whether they have ever seen the film. Us fans respect the film as pivotal to the Bond series and to film history, and because of that, overlook its flaws.

Is GF the best Bond film? No. Is it still a lot of fun? Sure. Until Kentucky. You mentioned somewhere above that the film feels incomplete. When Bond arrives in the States, the film comes to a stop. Bond walks around a farm. Old Man Leiter sits in a car. Goldfinger tells the 'hoods congress' about the Plan, and then kills them. Bond judos Pussy in a barn. A bunch of Army guys fall down when a plane passes overhead. Finally, you wake up when Bond and Oddjob battle inside Fort Knox.

Maybe what is missing for me is a female character I care about. I really liked Jill Masterson, but she only has three minutes of screen time before her death. Her sister is killed nearly as quickly. Then there's this mean-looking pilot who helps Bond eventually. (What a different movie it would have been had Jill lived, and been the 'inside' woman who helped Bond. But that's rewriting things on a P&W level...) None of GF's women were a Tatiana, Tracy, Anya, Kara, or Natalya; they just served the plot.

There's a lot to love in Goldfinger, a lot of stuff that has become iconic, and one of the best movie lines ever written. Do you have to love it? Of course not. But do you have to 'hate' it?

[bryonalston]

Bryon, hate is a very strong word.  So is despise.  Do you really hate and despise GF?  Or do you just 'not prefer' the film, but hate and despise the automatic public adulation of the film?  I'll go along with you part of the ways.  I don't hate Goldfinger, but when looking at the dvd cabinet, it sure isn't the first Bond film I'd choose.

We tend to look at these movies with hindsight now, and with the perspective of fans who can critique the films individually and as a set.  The general public just knows that Bond is a suave secret agent who sleeps with every woman he meets, drinks martinis, and saves the world by using cool gadgets.  They have been programmed by the current pop culture to 'believe' that the best of these films is GF and the best portrayer is Connery, regardless of whether they have ever seen the film.  Us fans respect the film as pivotal to the Bond series and to film history, and because of that, overlook its flaws.

Is GF the best Bond film?  No.  Is it still a lot of fun?  Sure.  Until Kentucky.  You mentioned somewhere above that the film feels incomplete.  When Bond arrives in the States, the film comes to a stop.  Bond walks around a farm.  Old Man Leiter sits in a car.  Goldfinger tells the 'hoods congress' about the Plan, and then kills them.  Bond judos Pussy in a barn.  A bunch of Army guys fall down when a plane passes overhead.  Finally, you wake up when Bond and Oddjob battle inside Fort Knox.

Maybe what is missing for me is a female character I care about.  I really liked Jill Masterson, but she only has three minutes of screen time before her death.  Her sister is killed nearly as quickly.  Then there's this mean-looking pilot who helps Bond eventually.  (What a different movie it would have been had Jill lived, and been the 'inside' woman who helped Bond.  But that's rewriting things on a P&W level...)  None of GF's women were a Tatiana, Tracy, Anya, Kara, or Natalya; they just served the plot.

There's a lot to love in Goldfinger, a lot of stuff that has become iconic, and one of the best movie lines ever written.  Do you have to love it?  Of course not.  But do you have to 'hate' it?

I suppose you're right. I don't HATE any Bond film (even TMWTGG or DAD,) but it upsets and irritates me when people think that GF is the best Bond film, even though they usually don't know what they're talking about. GF is an exceptional Bond film and it was a turning point, but the fact that people put it on some pedestal just because it changed the formula is an abomination. When I watch Bond movies, I usually get that feeling (you know what feeling I'm talking about, the one that only a Bond movie can give you) When I watch GF, I don't get that rush. The film just feels flat to me. And you are right about everything Strangways. The movie does stop in Kentucky and Pussy Galore is a waste of a potentially good Bond girl. Oh well.

[Qwerty]

hate is a very strong word.  So is despise. 

Indeed - I personally never have hated any 007 film.

[bryonalston]

I guess each Bond movie is good in it's own sort of way, but most of the time, when people dislike movies, it's not only because of the movie itself, but because of other factors. A friend of mines HATES the LOTR movies, because she believes that they're overrated. I'm not too fond of them either, and I do think that they've received just a little bit too much praise to the point where it's gotten on my nerves, but when it comes to that series, I'm impartial. However, with the Bond series, which I take fairly seriously, I don't like to just accept the movies at face value. I like to dig deeper and dissect each film. That's why I start so many topics about "Ranking this" or "Recast a modern version of..." because it's fun to imagine things that way, especially since we're all sitting ducks right now, eagerly awaiting for any bit of news that's thrown our way about CR. All we can do is look to the past until we do get something.

[Qwerty]

I think that the people at the AFI should read your post.

Yeah, those top quotes in movie history weren't all that great. Number one should have been that one from The Jazz Singer, or "Here's looking at you, kid." from Casablanca.

And where was "Luke, I am your father."???

(Or was it there and I just missed it?)

If I recall right, it wasn't there at all.

[Qwerty]

I think that the people at the AFI should read your post.

Yeah, those top quotes in movie history weren't all that great. Number one should have been that one from The Jazz Singer, or "Here's looking at you, kid." from Casablanca.

And where was "Luke, I am your father."???

(Or was it there and I just missed it?)

If I recall right, it wasn't there at all.

[00-FAN008]

I think that the people at the AFI should read your post.

Yeah, those top quotes in movie history weren't all that great. Number one should have been that one from The Jazz Singer, or "Here's looking at you, kid." from Casablanca.

And where was "Luke, I am your father."???

(Or was it there and I just missed it?)

If I recall right, it wasn't there at all.

Well, then that just sucks.

[ACE]

Yes, but not as much as I hate FRWL!

Er, tongue-in-cheek, chaps!

Bryanalston, I know what you're trying to say but this site and all it's posters are Bond fans. We generally like the world of James Bond and as you have conceded, Hate is too strong a word. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to the dark side.

Personally, the holy cows in the Bond series that I think are way overrated are Thunderball and YOLT. I love them in their way but Thunderball in particular is placed on some sort of pedestal. The same guys that moan about DAD's CG think nothing of the lousy (even for its time) back projection at the finale of TB and Sean's bored performance. Mmmm, makin' BBQ outta those guys!

Personally, I think GF is the BEST Bond film in terms of writing, structure, visuals and story telling. As a technical piece of film, it is without peer in the series and clearly influenced Spielberg et al. Not only is it influential in style but the way it used sound and was marketed and distributed and merchandised were industry firsts.

Sorry for following the flock but I can't help it.

But GF is not half as good as Operation Kid Brother!

OK Connery (cue 60's break beat drumming)!

ACE

Edited by ACE, 07 July 2005 - 02:00 AM.

[bryonalston]

Didn't you read anything from above? GF is fine up until Kentucky, where the story comes to a standstill. Bond does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL to make any substantial impact to the story. This is a James Bond movie. James Bond 007 is a spy who is supposed to save the world, etc. He doesn't do anything significant in the second half of the movie except convince Pussy to betray GF. He doesn't even stop the bomb. If anyone was the hero of the movie, it was Pussy. Now how exactly is a movie like this THE BEST IN STORYTELLING and STRUCTURE? It's not. You are following the flock and you don't give enough evidence to support your statements. You also lose credibility when you say that "Operation Kid Brother" should even be compared to a Bond movie (unless you were joking.)

[ACE]

You also lose credibility when you say that "Operation Kid Brother" should even be compared to a Bond movie (unless you were joking.)

Sorry, I was joking.

I accept your point about Bond being somewhat of a passenger in the film.

As an adaptation of the novel, the changes made are masterful. Visual images are created and the "caper" as Maibaum called the plot was terrific.

Adrian Turner's fascinating book on Goldfinger shows that the whole theme of the movie is about duels and games. When Bond is "doing" nothing, he is actually toying with Goldfinger.

Goldfinger is not an action thriller. There are about 8 minutes of action in the entire film. It is more of a Hitchcockian atomic age mystery adventure film.

I will not be able to convince you about its merits here.

And I respect your antipathy towards a film that is always held up as the "best". You want a different perspective to emerge.

I sorry for being facetious (the only word in English with all the vowels in alphabetical order!)

ACE

Edited by ACE, 07 July 2005 - 02:55 AM.

[Bon-san]

[quote name='bryonalston' date='6 July 2005 - 15:59']
[/quote]
I'm certainly not of the opinion that GF lacks depth in the plot. Irradiating all the gold in Fort Knox is one of coolest plots I've ever heard of. And the plot centers around Fleming's use of the three meetings between 007 and Goldfinger: first time is happenstance; second time is coincidence; third time is enemy action.

[/quote]
I wasn't referring to the overall plot (I think that contaminating the gold supply is inspired, and far better than the book's plot. I was talking about the entire movie. When compared to FRWL, TB, OHMSS, or even DAF (sort of) it's plot is kind of shallow. The kind of plot that I find to be deep and involving is the kind that you probably won't understand the first time you watch the movie, but will understand more and more in subsequent viewings. TND is a lot like GF: It has a great plot, but is kind of shallow and relies on gimmicks and gadgets (cool ones) to act as padding to make the movie seem deeper than it actually is. A good SPY story is more than just a nice plot from the villains and a great gadget or two. TB had the right balance of gadgets and depth. FRWL didn't need gadget at all, which is why it's such a great SPY THRILLER.

Answer this question: If GF didn't have the Aston-Martin and all of the gadgets, do you think that it would have made as much of an impact as it did? No, it wouldn't have, proving that it NEEDED those gimmicks to make it a "great movie"

[/quote]

Goldfinger's plot is shallow but FRWL's is deep?

FRWL: Spectre lays an obvious, bare-faced trap for Bond, who willingly walks right into it. He meanders around Istanbul for awhile, and eventually "seduces" the overly-willing girl who converts to his side. Then he fights the bad guy and wins. That's it, save the tacked-on ending with the bang-bangs. Not real deep.

And of course, none of the Bond films have "deep" plots. Their metier is style, sizzle, elan, action, eye-candy. GF has all this in spades. Including the Aston-Martin.

You seem rather combative about this. I mean, you titled the thread "Does Anyone Else HATE Goldfinger?" So, it seems a tad disingenous to then bemoan that people are attacking you. But, I don't think anyone was attacking you. I certainly am not. Elsewhere in the thread you indicated that you wanted feedback as to why people liked the film. Some of us are providing said feedback.

[bryonalston]

I know that, but people have also asked me why I despise of the movie so much. I'm simply answering that, as well as trying to get people to take a more open-minded look that the movie that they cherish so much.

Again, by DEPTH, I meant that the plot is very complex, and might take a couple of viewings to fully understand it. FRWL's plot might seem simple, even though it's not. Other Bond movies that have DEPTH and involving plots include OHMSS, DAF (to a certain degree,) OP, TLD, LTK, GE and TWINE. GF only has like one or two plot twists (Goldfinger wants to contaminate the gold and not steal it.) Everything else is pretty much laid out for you. This isn't the case in the movies mentioned above or from FRWL and TB (to a certain extent.)

[Qwerty]

I sorry for being facetious (the only word in English with all the vowels in alphabetical order!)

So off-topic, but I never noticed that before!

[bryonalston]

I sorry for being facetious (the only word in English with all the vowels in alphabetical order!)

So off-topic, but I never noticed that before!

Ditto! I'm going to write that down somewhere...

[Loyal Terrior]

I think that the people at the AFI should read your post.

Yeah, those top quotes in movie history weren't all that great. Number one should have been that one from The Jazz Singer, or "Here's looking at you, kid." from Casablanca.

And where was "Luke, I am your father."???

(Or was it there and I just missed it?)

If I recall right, it wasn't there at all.

Well, then that just sucks.

The whole listing is always up for debating IMO.

[ACE]

So off-topic, but I never noticed that before! biggrin.gif
*


Ditto! I'm going to write that down somewhere... biggrin.gif

Sorry, but indulge me.

If you liked that, try this.

Why should you never "assume" anything?

Because you will make an "" out of "u" and "me"!

Er, my boss taught me that on many occasions!

Ahem, back to topic!

ACE

[bryonalston]

I hear that ALL THE TIME from my peers. At first it was kind of funny, but now everyone says it and it's gotten really old, really fast.

[Qwerty]

I think that the people at the AFI should read your post.

Yeah, those top quotes in movie history weren't all that great. Number one should have been that one from The Jazz Singer, or "Here's looking at you, kid." from Casablanca.

And where was "Luke, I am your father."???

(Or was it there and I just missed it?)

If I recall right, it wasn't there at all.

Well, then that just sucks.

Yeah - the full list is on several sites currently if you wanted to check.