408 replies to this topic

[sharpshooter]

I've always felt that TLD was the "transitional" film and that LTK was the start of the Dalton era proper.

Yes, same. Though I do like TLD just as much.

[Professor Dent]

The Living Daylights has a lot of things that just work for it. Dalton's performance, the action, the humor, Barry's score, etc. Licence to Kill didn't have the same appeal for me. Dalton's performance was fine but, at the time, it did seem more like Miami Vice beat the drug angle thing to death in the 80's. Kamen's score reminded me more of his Die Hard work with the Bond theme mixed in at times. I still rate The Living Daylights as the better of his two movies.

[Professor Pi]

Well, if I were to break it down by its components:

PTS - TLD
title song - TLD
girl - TLD (but it's close)
score - TLD
villain - LTK
henchman - LTK
allies - TLD
gadgets - TLD
climax - TLD

and yet, I find Licence to Kill to be greater than the sum of its parts. The characters are more interesting and the plot is not as convoluted. And LTK has some symbolism in it that no other Bond film sports (just watch the scene where Pam saves Bond from the grinder.) It's a controversial Bond film, but it's one of my favorites.

[Stephen Spotswood]

Who was TLD written for anyway? I always heard it was more designed for Roger Moore, but I can't see him playing the scenes with Kara the same way as Dalton. And since there were elements of the romantic comedy in it, I would suspect it was written for Brosnan, who then lost the part when Remington Steele called him back, only to return later.

It's kind of like the feeling I had watchng Goldeneye how much better it would've been with Dalton moody on the beach etc.

[Daylights]

TLD is one of my favorite Bond films, much of that is due to Dalton's performance, the opening Czhec. Republic scene and Bond's encounter with Pushkin in the hotel room. A couple of the best scenes in the entire series.

Just a little correction: when TLD was made, the country's name was Czechoslovakia. Today this country is divided into two independent countries: Czech Republic and Slovakia. The scene you are talking about takes place in Bratislava, which is the capital of Slovakia.

In other words, there are no scenes featuring Czech Republic in TLD.

By the way, I love both films. I never seem to find out which one is the better one, but LTK is probably the one I've seen most. TLD has a little more complicated plot if you compare them. Below is a picture from one of my proud moments - meeting the best Bond director ever, John Glen.

PS: Wouldn't it be great with a LTK 20th. anniversary at Pinewood in 2009?

Edited by Daylights, 05 January 2009 - 07:01 AM.

[danielcraigisjamesbond007]

TLD:
What I liked:
Dalton
D'Abo
A plot that actually makes sense (and isn't a "Take over the world" plot)
Great action
Great acting from all of the actors
Theme song

What I didn't like:
The villains (the characters, not the actors); they could have been more throughly developed

LTK:
What I liked:
Dalton
The "Darker" Bond

What I didn't like:
The musical score
Title sequence
Theme song
The two Bond girls
Franz Sanchez
David Hedison

Edited by danielcraigisjamesbond007, 09 January 2009 - 04:45 AM.

[Professor Pi]

Who was TLD written for anyway? I always heard it was more designed for Roger Moore, but I can't see him playing the scenes with Kara the same way as Dalton. And since there were elements of the romantic comedy in it, I would suspect it was written for Brosnan, who then lost the part when Remington Steele called him back, only to return later.

It's kind of like the feeling I had watchng Goldeneye how much better it would've been with Dalton moody on the beach etc.

I've read in many sources, including an interview with screenwriter Richard Maibaum, that The Living Daylights was in fact written with Pierce Brosnan in mind. Ironically, when I met the screenwriter for GoldenEye at a James Bond convention in L.A. back in 94, he said he wrote it with Timothy Dalton in mind.

LTK:


...
Robert Davi
...

I met him at the Hollywood Bowl in 1994 and, after confirming who he was, told him he was my favorite Bond villain. He was very appreciative and took the time to ask me my name and what I did for a living. Nice fellow, actually. Unfortunately, this was before picture phones and digital cameras were all the rage.

[Blonde Bond]

Dalton's performance in TLD is more sophisticated and suave, a true Fleming's Bond, whereas in LTK he's more dark and brooding. Perhaps more than Fleming's Bond in LALD.

But as a movie I like LTK better. It's gritty, more violent, better villains and I don't mind the exotic and southern settings.

I find TLD less thrilling compared to LTK.

[Judo chop]

LTK is the most miserable film of the series. Good execution, almost zero charisma. Not the worst film – that title has already been won for all time, hopefully – but the most miserable.

Like a piece of sugar-free dark chocolate, it misses the point completely.

It amazes and frightens me equally that Glen claims it is his best work. I rank that statement as #2 on my list of Outrageous Things Glen Has Said™, right behind “Roger has another 3 or 4 in him”. (Though the thought of a Roger Moore film, modeled after LTK, and taking place 10 years after AVTAK, never ceases to amuse.)

TLD was the best opportunity Dalton was given. Fun film.

[jb0074]

You cannot imagine how thankful I am you made this post. I have been having this discussion off and on with a good friend for mine for the last two weeks. Great timing!! Anyway, I fall in the category of some of my fellow Bondians in saying that TLD was one of my top three favorite films. I felt you had the perfect blend of the Bond formula of the films mixed with the character of Bond as envisioned by Fleming. And much to Dalton's credit he was able to do a very credible job in the mixture. I know there are many people out there who have the highest regard for LTK (a la my good friend), and it is not a film I despise, but in my opinion once you take the spy element out of a Bond film it loses one aspect of it's attraction. LTK had many good qualities to it, but in the end it became nothing more than a polished revenge film. I believe that QoS most recently went down the same path but was able to hang on to the spy angle whereas LTK did not.

[Revelator]

LTK is the most miserable film of the series. Good execution, almost zero charisma...TLD was the best opportunity Dalton was given. Fun film.

Not as fun as LTK, which was the best Bond since TSWLM, or maybe OHMSS.
TLD was badly hampered by an over-convoluted and inconsequential plot that meandered too much, weak villains, and carried an overall sense of tameness.
LTK improved on almost aspect of its predecessor. Robert Davis practically oozed slime and had excellent charisma with Dalton, and the film's storyline--a skillful combination of Yojimbo and Fleming's LALD and TMWTGG--is clear and gathers force as it moves along, instead of dissipating like TLD's. The film also displays sophistication by showing how Bond's attempts at revenge actively interfered with and jeopardized those of the authorities as they tried building an official case on Sanchez.
As a Bond girl Pam is given far more to do than the far more passive Kara, and her jealousy if fun to watch (Lowell has genuine spunk). Q also gets his meatiest part, and his genuine affection and goodwill for 007 is a nice change from his usual annoyance. Aside from the actress who plays Lupe, the supporting cast is quite strong, and the supporting villains appropriately sleazy (even Wayne Newton turned out to be a good lech). Dalton himself gives a freer, more smoldering performance than in TLD.
John Glen's direction in LTK is also more assured--the action pieces stand out in a way they hadn't in the earlier film. The "waterskiing" sequence and truck-based finale have a crispness and grit missing from the often unmemorable action scenes in TLD. And unlike more recent action sequences in the Bond films, you can follow the action with no trouble. Glen's right to regard as his best Bond film.

[danielcraigisjamesbond007]

Who was TLD written for anyway? I always heard it was more designed for Roger Moore, but I can't see him playing the scenes with Kara the same way as Dalton. And since there were elements of the romantic comedy in it, I would suspect it was written for Brosnan, who then lost the part when Remington Steele called him back, only to return later.

It's kind of like the feeling I had watchng Goldeneye how much better it would've been with Dalton moody on the beach etc.

I've read in many sources, including an interview with screenwriter Richard Maibaum, that The Living Daylights was in fact written with Pierce Brosnan in mind. Ironically, when I met the screenwriter for GoldenEye at a James Bond convention in L.A. back in 94, he said he wrote it with Timothy Dalton in mind.

LTK:


...
Robert Davi
...

I met him at the Hollywood Bowl in 1994 and, after confirming who he was, told him he was my favorite Bond villain. He was very appreciative and took the time to ask me my name and what I did for a living. Nice fellow, actually. Unfortunately, this was before picture phones and digital cameras were all the rage.

I apologise. I meant nothing against Davi, but his character of Sanchez. Ultimately, I feel like his character is very typical and not very interesting (like Dominic Greene). I'll be sure to change that.

[Qwerty]

[Moderator's Note: Topics merged]

[Judo chop]

Not as fun as LTK, which was the best Bond since TSWLM, or maybe OHMSS.
TLD was badly hampered by an over-convoluted and inconsequential plot that meandered too much, weak villains, and carried an overall sense of tameness.
LTK improved on almost aspect of its predecessor. Robert Davis practically oozed slime and had excellent charisma with Dalton, and the film's storyline--a skillful combination of Yojimbo and Fleming's LALD and TMWTGG--is clear and gathers force as it moves along, instead of dissipating like TLD's. The film also displays sophistication by showing how Bond's attempts at revenge actively interfered with and jeopardized those of the authorities as they tried building an official case on Sanchez.

As a Bond girl Pam is given far more to do than the far more passive Kara, and her jealousy if fun to watch (Lowell has genuine spunk). Q also gets his meatiest part, and his genuine affection and goodwill for 007 is a nice change from his usual annoyance. Aside from the actress who plays Lupe, the supporting cast is quite strong, and the supporting villains appropriately sleazy (even Wayne Newton turned out to be a good lech). Dalton himself gives a freer, more smoldering performance than in TLD.

John Glen's direction in LTK is also more assured--the action pieces stand out in a way they hadn't in the earlier film. The "waterskiing" sequence and truck-based finale have a crispness and grit missing from the often unmemorable action scenes in TLD. And unlike more recent action sequences in the Bond films, you can follow the action with no trouble. Glen's right to regard as his best Bond film.

You know… I’m with you through quite of bit of it. I don’t think TLD’s plot meanders. I enjoy it, but you’re absolutely right about its villains, esp. compared to those of LTK. Yes, Pam is given more to do, but Kara is just as well written, and in execution is infinitely more charismatic (though I also understand why this could be a point of contention). Wayne Newton is amusing only b/c he’s Wayne Newton. As a character, he’s obnoxious.

And speaking of obnoxious, I notice you didn’t mention Felix.

I think LTK’s story is good. I appreciate Q’s interaction. I think Glen squeezes some excellent tension from the script, as I’ve said he is prone to do. I agree that the some of the action is clearer and crisper in LTK, but then some of the action also takes place in that dockside bar.

Where I would target the main thrust of my friendly attack at your argument, is back up at the top where you say TLD:

carried an overall sense of tameness

Perhaps a little, but what of the overall sense that LTK carries? I think LTK carries an overall sense of bitterness. It’s a dark film in the sense that it has no light. Dark but not rich, and tastes to me of salt and ash. It’s vibe is miserable. I realize that’s very subjective, which is why you can cite very good reasons for why LTK should be a great film, but yet in the end I can barely enjoy it.

[Darth Prefect]

I'll take The Living Daylights over Licence to Kill. It has more Fleming elements, a better plot and is just generally of a higher qaulity.

That being said, Licence to Kill has a lot of Q in it, a better song and decent Felix. (But Carey Lowell's got the googly eyes. Distracting.)

[007½]

I prefer The Living Daylights. It seems to be the most Flemingian storyline to me. Plus, I can't imagine the idea of Bond saying no to one girl to make another happy.

[byline]

It's strange, but before last week, I would've given "The Living Daylights" the nod, easily. But having watched both films again, back to back, last week, now I'm torn. "The Living Daylights" still wins out for me, but not by as big a margin as I once believed.

I still find myself uncomfortable with certain aspects of "Licence to Kill": Pam's annoying jealousy of Lupe, for example (which seems deliberately intended to undermine her capability). I know it's a tried-and-true Bond film recipe, but turning someone who's supposed to be a gritty pilot into a petulant teenager just bugged me (along with Q's "there, there" schtick). I find Carey Lowell to be trying too hard to appear tough; it just doesn't quite work, for me. Same with bringing back David Hedison as Leiter; the friendship between him and Dalton's Bond feels forced, somehow, and written in too much of a TV style (for example, his too-cheerful phone banter with Dalton in the hospital room at the end).

However, Dalton's cat-and-mouse game with Robert Davi is bang-on, and the scenes between those two actors are among the best in the series.

Still, "The Living Daylights" delivers Bond in a more classic style, yet one that Dalton improved by adding subtle nuances to the character. Maybe it has to do with my expectations, and how Dalton elevated them, but when I first saw this film, I thought to myself, "Now, that's what I've been waiting to see in James Bond." Dalton's Bond had that something moving behind his eyes that told me there was more going on with him than appeared obvious on the surface, and it showed in his very first scene. And maybe it's because I like Bond to be a little bit romantic, but I enjoyed his relationship with Kara. Yes, she was naive and a bit silly at times, but she's also more capable than often given credit for. And, as a musician, I found Maryam d'Abo surprisingly believable in her cello scenes. And then when Bond shows up in her dressing room there at the end, I always give a little sigh and feel all is well with the world. I guess that's satisfying the hopeless romantic in me.

Edited by byline, 01 June 2009 - 09:55 PM.

[Tybre]

Personally I prefer Licence to Kill. Living Daylights comes close to winning, but like Dalton once said in an interview, it was initially written for someone else, someone lighter (not necessarily Roger Moore). They tweaked it when he came onboard, but not enough, in my opinion. And on top of that, the plot is convoluted for the sake of being convoluted. It's fun and entertaining, sure, but what they feel necessary to drag out and spin could be done much better if it were more straight and streamlined. It's less of a mystery and more of a "wtf is going on" at points. Even after having seen it enough times to know exactly what is happening and basically every point.

[Major D.Smythe]

It's down to the wire, but at this point in time, i'd choose TLD. Only just.

[Bucky]

its a close call but i would have to go with the living daylights. it is just more of a classic bond film.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

I prefer The Living Daylights. It seems to be the most Flemingian storyline to me. Plus, I can't imagine the idea of Bond saying no to one girl to make another happy.

It's not a dilemma he usually faces since it's usually a case of "Last Woman Standing", i.e., Bond ends the film with the girl who isn't dead yet. Besides, he'd forgotten them both by the events of GE.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I prefer The Living Daylights. It seems to be the most Flemingian storyline to me. Plus, I can't imagine the idea of Bond saying no to one girl to make another happy.

Bond was never that much into Lupe. He used her to get information on Sanchez's operation and to escape from his mansion and pretty much only slept with her to keep her from potentially ratting him out to Sanchez (although I'm sure he didn't mind doing so). Nevertheless, Bond clearly had more feelings for Pam as they'd been through a whole lot more than he and Lupe and were much better suited for each other. As a result, the girl he ultimately would end up with was never really in doubt.

[Max-Zorin]

Licence to Kill is my favourite, then I'd say quite a big jump to The Living Daylights.

[Major D.Smythe]

My opinion hasn't changed sice my coment a little ways up the page. It's very close, but TLD just pips it. LTK takes up #2 place.

[Genuine Felix Leiter]

I'm gonna say LTK. Whilst TLD is a more Bondian film in many ways, more akin to FYEO and OHMSS and of course FRWL, I think LTK tries to do something different with the formula and it works. Timothy Dalton's performance is his best in Bondage here, so dark and brutal and unapologetic for it too, you just cannot take your eyes off him, this Bond is truly dangerous and the better for it. Just look at his eyes. He is one mean SOB, and I love that about him. Sanchez is a worthy adversary and it's got not one but two beautiful Bond girls. Carey Lowell's legs were made for the big screen, and Q gets his finest moment here, every scene with him is a joy. On the other hand, TLD is great, I love it to bits, an epic cold war thriller with a lovely central romance at the centre of it, but for me LTK just edges ahead of it, it's a Bond picture that tries something different, but clearly influenced by other films of the time and still works a treat, but at the heart of both movies, is Dalton. Just watching the final scene of LTK is a heartbreaker as everytime I do I realise, this is the last we'll see of him in the role. A shame, but for what it's worth, his performance is do definitively Bond for me that everytime I read a Fleming novel, it's only Dalton I can see. He was that good.

[ChristopherZ22]

I voted for The Living Daylights. It is not a great Bond film, but it is very entertaining.

Licence To Kill is tedious and kind of boring much of the time. The plot is too simple and not much can be done with it. The film therefore drags too much.

[Bond_Assassin90]

Out of the two The Living Daylights is definitely my favorite Dalton Bond, love it.

[Lachesis]

I prefer TLD of the two, but both are very good Bond's and leave me sad we didn't get to see more of Dalton in the lead.

[GUY007]

These are 2 excellent films. Timothy Dalton is very serious in the role of James Bond.
The living daylight is more a spy story (a Russian officer who is a traitor, the SMERSH mentioned).
I like the music of this film.
License to kill proves that Bond is a killer. He uses his number 007 for pesonnelles reasons.
The scenario is realistic and The dead are atrocious (eaten by a shark, burned).
Carey Lowell is my favorite Bond Girl.
The question is therefore difficult and I vote for License to kill.

Edited by GUY007, 18 December 2010 - 04:09 PM.

[mttvolcano]

License to Kill. It's the most real film in the series. You can say TLD could have been real too but at the time LTK just fit in with the global scene. It's quite possibly the most recent Fleming'esque to date so far.

I love this movie because of it's nonstop sense of drama, suspense, and hint of danger at every turn. Everytime I watch it I'm at the edge of my seat just as excited by the movie since the first time I saw it.

I love the entire tanker part, it just looks like so much fun. The ruination of the coccaine on the sentinel, The opening scene, and of course: Professor Joe's constant "Bless your heart"

All in all this is one of the fun BOnds one can really watch more than once and notice more with each vewing.

Couldn't have said it better! It had so much raw emotion and a sort of human element, which is why I love it!