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Is Casino Royale a "remake"?


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#61 DLibrasnow

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 05:00 PM

Casino Royale (2006) is not a remake of Casino Royale (1967).

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So following your logic then:

Never Say Never Again was not a remake of Thunderball.

You cannot say "yes" to one and "no" to the other or your argument falls apart at the seams.

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Got ya! TB and NSNA are even based on the same screenplay (yes, McClory used to claim that he has 15 different screenplays, but it's all just variations of TB), therefore, NSNA is in all terms a remake of TB (not going to start a discussion on quality with you, D. that would lead us to nowhere).

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Wrong. Never Say Never Again is based on 15 different scripts that were written in the 1950s when Fleming was trying to get a series of Bond movies together. The whole project fell through and Fleming went off and incorporated some of the ideas into his novel Thunderball which was later adapted into a movie in 1965 by Kevin McClory (as producer) and EON.

So no, Never Say Never Again is not a remake of Thunderball because they are not even based on the same book. Technically speaking Never Say Never Again isn't based on a book at all.

#62 stromberg

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 05:52 PM

Casino Royale (2006) is not a remake of Casino Royale (1967).

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So following your logic then:

Never Say Never Again was not a remake of Thunderball.

You cannot say "yes" to one and "no" to the other or your argument falls apart at the seams.

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Got ya! TB and NSNA are even based on the same screenplay (yes, McClory used to claim that he has 15 different screenplays, but it's all just variations of TB), therefore, NSNA is in all terms a remake of TB (not going to start a discussion on quality with you, D. that would lead us to nowhere).

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Wrong. Never Say Never Again is based on 15 different scripts that were written in the 1950s when Fleming was trying to get a series of Bond movies together. The whole project fell through and Fleming went off and incorporated some of the ideas into his novel Thunderball which was later adapted into a movie in 1965 by Kevin McClory (as producer) and EON.

So no, Never Say Never Again is not a remake of Thunderball because they are not even based on the same book. Technically speaking Never Say Never Again isn't based on a book at all.

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...which goes to show: this discussion is an endless circle, especially as it always gets to be taken OT. It's a question of everyone's own point of view.

Just teasing a bit, DLib :) (but didn't McClory have to admit that those "15 different scripts" were nothing but 15 different drafts of the TB script?)

You cannot discuss away the press' and general audience's take on the whole subject. We'll have to wait and see what will happen. But - as I said before - EON has to be aware of this and fight misunderstandings right from the start. Clearification is due in the next press release (and that has to happen ASAP, even if there's nothing else to announce and they have to make one on this subject only).

I just hope that it doesn't end in a constant diminishing of CR67 in order to get CR06 "the respect that it deserves" (whatever this may be at this state of production). Would be a better move to take care that CR67 finally gets the respect that it deserves.(Sorry, I can't help it, I love this movie - it has more to do with me getting involved into the Bond thing than any Brosnan Bond movie).

#63 JimmyBond

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:06 PM

I'd say 19 good-to-great Bond films, rather than 20 great Bond films. :)

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You arent speaking of The World is not Enough by any chance are you :)

#64 WC

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:08 PM

I don't understand from the above why NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN is a remake of THUNDERBALL (both based on the same source material - a screenplay), but CASINO ROYALE 2006 isn't a remake of CASINO ROYALE 1967 (both based on the same source material - a novel).

I mean, if someone bought the rights to, say, HALLOWEEN, and made a version of the story set in New York City, with Michael Myers being the same character, but Dr Loomis a 30-year-old American instead of a Brit pushing 60, and two female babysitters and one male one instead of three female babysitters (with Laurie Strode turned into a Chinese American character), and basically kept the same story while adding, say, a long car chase in the middle.... well, it'd still be a remake of John Carpenter's film, wouldn't it?


In the scenario you give - yes, it would be a remake. But you're citing a different type of scenario to Casino Royale. In the Halloween example, the studio is using the original Halloween film they bought the rights to as the basis of a new film, even if they change many elements in it. However, in Casino Royale's case, as in the various Shakespeare film examples, the studio is making a new adaptation of a work based on an original source material. Although there might be an earlier adaptation from the 1960s, the studio is ignoring that and using Fleming's work as the basis of the 2006 film, not the 1960s David Niven film.

To illustrate - you know that Dan Brown's book, the Davinci Code is being adapted for a movie, with Tom Hanks. Now, supposing another studio (we'll call Studio B ) also decides simultaneously to make a movie adaptation of that book, in complete ignorance of the Tom Hanks version that's currently in the works. Now, supposing Studio B's version somehow gets released first, and the Tom Hanks version gets released second. Do you call either of these a remake of the other, just because one came out first and the second one shares the same title and same storyline?

If you think that's an unlikely scenario - there have been other films where this has occurred. There's a recent example, of which I just can't think of the name of the film right now. But there's also that Michael Douglas film "Black Rain" made in something like 1987. Now, it was set in Japan, and was to do with nuclear waste or something like that. In the same year, there was also another film made over in Japan about the exact same subject, also called "Black Rain". Both were released within weeks of each other. Is one a remake of the other?

Or if two studios independently decide to make a film about 9/11 - both will feature the same main storyline more or less, with certain elements being different of course. Is one a remake of the other? Would you call the 1997 Titanic movie a remake of the earlier Titanic movies? Otherwise wouldn't newspapers or news teams who are reporting the same incident from different perspectives be accused of simply copying each other or "remaking" another news report?

Whether something is a remake or not is not determined by whether there are similar (or different) elements from the first film or not, or even whether they share the same name. It's whether the studio is using the first film as its inspiration to make the second film, rather than an independent original source material - which is the case in Casino Royale.

So: Studio B uses Film A to make Film B = remake
But: Studio B uses Source C and NOT Film A to make Film B = Not a remake.

Edited by Welshcat, 13 February 2005 - 06:09 PM.


#65 zencat

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:52 PM

...Never Say Never Again is not a remake of Thunderball...

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LOL! I wouldn't tell the Eon legal department that, because you would essentially be telling them they don't understand the definition of the word either. It was a legal requirement that NSNA be a clear remake of THUNDERBALL and NOT based on the disputed material that the book was based on. It it wasn't a remake, Eon could stop production and sue for infringing on Eon's right to make original Bond movies. That's why they had to shoe-horn in the jetpack sequence, etc., so they could show that more than 50% of the film came from elements orginally found in the film Thunderball (which, legally, made them a remake). That's why the original script, James Bond of the Secret Service, could not be made. It was not enough of a remake. Eon watched this VERY closely.

I know you feel strongly about how you define "remake", but in the case of NSNA, there is documented legal evidence (probably a vault full somewhere) that NSNA absolutely IS a remake of the film Thunderball.

And if more than 50% of CR comes from elements originally created for the '67 film, then yes, it's a remake. But somehow I doubt this.

#66 Catspaw

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:57 PM

*Bleagh*

All this semanticising is making me dizzy.

:)

#67 DLibrasnow

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 07:04 PM

I know you feel strongly about how you define "remake", but in the case of NSNA, there is documented legal evidence (probably a vault full somewhere) that NSNA absolutely  IS a remake of the film Thunderball.

And if more than 50% of CR comes from elements originally created for the '67 film, then yes, it's a remake. But somehow I doubt this.

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I don't think you are correct on this Zennkitty. The character Fatima Blush was originally the name of a character in one of the treatments worked out with Fleming, Bryce, Whittingham and McClory in the 1950s.

That is why they had a character named Fatima Blush because she was in the 007 material that McClory held the rights too (ie those 1950s screenplays that Stromberg was referring to).

#68 zencat

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 07:23 PM

[quote name='DLibrasnow' date='13 February 2005 - 11:04'][quote name='zencat' date='13 February 2005 - 13:52']
I know you feel strongly about how you define "remake", but in the case of NSNA, there is documented legal evidence (probably a vault full somewhere) that NSNA absolutely

#69 Rolex

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 07:31 PM

Forget about remake or original film it is a pointless excercise, I would like to know why they decided to go for Casino Royale now. IMO and its just a conspiracy theory that they went for Casino Royale is to end franchise series just seems so logical.
No doubt, I will be proved wrong but hearing over the months that the producers wanted a younger bond in an earlier time it would make further adventures look pretty daft e.g. Jack Ryan movie ''Sum of all fears''.
I can imagine Cubby saying to his Kids

#70 stromberg

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 07:33 PM

So, among Bond fans, we have the "legal decision" take, the "technicaly spoken" take, the"personal preference" take and so on. But that's not what matters.

The only take that matters is the "Joe Blow" take - and that take is not predictable. But I (personal POV) don't think this will affect the movie's success. If the whole thing is well done, nobody will (frankly said) give a damn.

#71 zencat

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 07:41 PM

Good point, stromberg. I've always said I don't think anyone cares what a James Bond movie is called. It's always "the new Bond film" to the public.

#72 Loomis

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 08:45 PM

Nevertheless, the point I'm trying to make is that NSNA IS a remake of TB. There is legal proof of this. And using the legal definition as applied to NSNA, we can settle the CR argument. If CR uses more than 50% of elements that originated in the '67 film, then it will be a "remake." If more than 50% is orginal or found in the source novel, then it is not a remake.

So if CR 2006 has Indians and clapping seals and a dozen people named Bond, James Bond, then you will be vindicated, Dlibs. :)

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I don't think many people apart from filmmakers and lawyers care about legal definitions of 50% plus, zen. I'm sure a lot of cinemagoers and even critics will assume that Eon's CASINO ROYALE is a remake of the 1967 movie, and nothing any of us says will make a blind bit of difference.

#73 DLibrasnow

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:20 PM

[But I do know McClory could not introduce too much (if any) orginal material.

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Right zenkitty. But the inability to introduce any original material is referring to sticking to material in the scripts and screen treatments that were worked out in the 1950s.
Therefore we have Fatima Blush and electronically controlled sharks - both of which were elements in the Whittingham, Bryce and McClory works that were done years before EON acquired rights to the series.
Therefore NSNA is not a remake of THUNDERBALL. Because whereas the 1965 movie is based on the Fleming book, NSNA is based on the screen treatments from the 1950s. So, they have different source material.

#74 zencat

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:22 PM

*zencat's head explodes*

:)

#75 Bon-san

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:25 PM

[But I do know McClory could not introduce too much (if any) orginal material.

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Right zenkitty. But the inability to introduce any original material is referring to sticking to material in the scripts and screen treatments that were worked out in the 1950s.
Therefore we have Fatima Blush and electronically controlled sharks - both of which were elements in the Whittingham, Bryce and McClory works that were done years before EON acquired rights to the series.
Therefore NSNA is not a remake of THUNDERBALL. Because whereas the 1965 movie is based on the Fleming book, NSNA is based on the screen treatments from the 1950s. So, they have different source material.

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Dlib, you're really trying hard, dude!

But if you follow the logic of this argument, then it really undermines the logic of your original argument that Casino Royale 2006 is a remake of the '67 version. Because that '67 version was certainly not based on Fleming's novel, now was it? :)

#76 DLibrasnow

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:28 PM

Oh I agree that Casino Royale is not a remake of the 1967 production. :) There's such a thing as "playing devil's advocate."

But of course the 1967 movie did take some elements from the Fleming novel - Vesper etc etc

#77 DLibrasnow

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:32 PM

I would like to know why they decided to go for Casino Royale now.

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Well MGM acquired the rights from Sony's Columbia Pictures a couple of years ago. But I am sure that the acquisition of MGM by Sony recently simply cleared away any last legal obstacle there might have been to the movie 'Casino Royale' getting made.

#78 Righty007

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 10:59 PM

Is it settled? Do we all agree that Casino Royale (2006) is not a remake of Casino Royale (1967)?

#79 Simon

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 11:36 PM

Well based on where we're going with this thread, the only production CR06 could be legitimately accused of being a remake of, is the CR54 version.

Ie, book, TV program and, presumeably, elements used for CR06 all derived from the same lineage. Ergo, CR67 is the re-imagining!

Yahoo, solved.

Next question is, whether all this will renew / create interest in these two rogue entries into the canon. I daresay it will.

#80 Righty007

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 12:01 AM

Next question is, whether all this will renew / create interest in these two rogue entries into the canon.  I daresay it will.

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You're absolutely right. I purchased the Casino Royale (1967) DVD today which also includes the 1954 TV version. Casino Royale has influenced me to see them both.

#81 DLibrasnow

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 02:20 AM

[quote name='Righty007' date='13 February 2005 - 19:01'][quote name='Simon' date='13 February 2005 - 18:36']Next question is, whether all this will renew / create interest in these two rogue entries into the canon.

#82 Righty007

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 02:45 AM

[quote name='DLibrasnow' date='13 February 2005 - 21:20'][quote name='Righty007' date='13 February 2005 - 19:01'][quote name='Simon' date='13 February 2005 - 18:36']Next question is, whether all this will renew / create interest in these two rogue entries into the canon.

#83 Qwerty

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 02:47 AM

I predict you'll hate the ending even more Righty, seeing as you seem to favor the EON films of the series. The 1954 television is quite pleasing though in my opinion.

#84 Righty007

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 03:01 AM

I predict you'll hate the ending even more Righty, seeing as you seem to favor the EON films of the series. The 1954 television is quite pleasing though in my opinion.

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Eon Productions Ltd. only makes films faithful to Ian Fleming's creation. Casino Royale (1967) and Never Say Never Again are not about the same character that I am a fan of.

#85 Qwerty

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 03:09 AM

With respect, EON isn't always quite so faithful.

You are correct in saying (in a way) how far off the "Bond[s]" in Casino Royale (1967) is/are.

#86 DavidSomerset

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 04:33 AM

CR will be all green screen with computer generated backgrounds.

After the fantastic CGI in DAD especially the astounding Iceberg and parasailing scene where the Pierce doll moves around the cardboard icebergs, EON has decided to go all out and make a CGI background Bond. (Like Sky Captain ...)

It will cost them only 49.99$ for the effects which were proudly done using Paint Shop Pro - Standard edition. No need to search for locations!!!

So they can pay 1 million to the actor paying Bond, another 1 million to the other actors and in an additional 49.99$ they can complete the movie. They can rack up the budget to 100 million by spending it on Marketing...

#87 DLibrasnow

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 04:46 AM

I predict you'll hate the ending even more Righty, seeing as you seem to favor the EON films of the series. The 1954 television is quite pleasing though in my opinion.

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Eon Productions Ltd. only makes films faithful to Ian Fleming's creation. Casino Royale (1967) and Never Say Never Again are not about the same character that I am a fan of.

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Oh yeah....Moonraker and Die Another Day were really faithful to Ian Flemings creation. Don't let hrabb catch you saying that Righty, I think he might beg to differ - especially concerning how faithful Moonrakeris.

#88 DLibrasnow

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 04:49 AM

CR will be all green screen with computer generated backgrounds.

After the fantastic CGI in DAD especially the astounding Iceberg and parasailing scene where the Pierce doll moves around the cardboard icebergs, EON has decided to go all out and make a CGI background Bond. (Like Sky Captain ...)

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Actually the real reason we have not heard who will be playing Bond yet is he will be completely CGI.

Right now technicians at EON are coming up with an image that is a cross between Sean Connery, Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan to be unveiled at this years Toronto Toy Expo.

#89 DavidSomerset

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 04:54 AM

CR will be all green screen with computer generated backgrounds.

After the fantastic CGI in DAD especially the astounding Iceberg and parasailing scene where the Pierce doll moves around the cardboard icebergs, EON has decided to go all out and make a CGI background Bond. (Like Sky Captain ...)

View Post


Actually the real reason we have not heard who will be playing Bond yet is he will be completely CGI.

Right now technicians at EON are coming up with an image that is a cross between Sean Connery, Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan to be unveiled at this years Toronto Toy Expo.

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In this way they can save on the 1 million they have to give to the actor. They get everything for 49.99$.
1 MORE Million for marketing... Why not make it into a Sesame Street kind of pupet show???

#90 Qwerty

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 05:02 AM

CR will be all green screen with computer generated backgrounds.

After the fantastic CGI in DAD especially the astounding Iceberg and parasailing scene where the Pierce doll moves around the cardboard icebergs, EON has decided to go all out and make a CGI background Bond. (Like Sky Captain ...)

View Post


Actually the real reason we have not heard who will be playing Bond yet is he will be completely CGI.

Right now technicians at EON are coming up with an image that is a cross between Sean Connery, Roger Moore and Pierce Brosnan to be unveiled at this years Toronto Toy Expo.

View Post


What fresh hell is EON up to this time?