42 replies to this topic

[Loomis]

I've long wondered which Bond authors were successful in the marketplace, and which weren't. We often discuss the box office performance of the films, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a thread comparing the sales of the novels.

I'm sure that Fleming, for fairly obvious reasons, sold millions more books than any of the other writers, probably many more than Amis, Gardner and Benson put together.

Still, I remember as a child seeing the Gardners on sale everywhere, and not just in the UK. Presumably some of his books were genuine, honest-to-goodness bestsellers, particularly his early efforts (before the reading public tuned out)?

How about Benson? How did his books perform in the marketplace by comparison to Gardner's? Much worse, is what I'm assuming.

And Amis? I imagine "Colonel Sun" died on its .

So would it break down as follows:

FLEMING - a publishing phenomenon, the Stephen King/JK Rowling of his day;

AMIS - who?;

GARDNER - did very well in his heyday (as Bond novelist) - never approached Fleming's dizzying heights of commercial success, but kept the literary series alive in the public imagination;

BENSON - Joe Blow (Joe Bookworm) couldn't care less.

[Qwerty]

Yes, It often seemed that Gardner's books got quite a few excellent reviews, while never being able to boast the magical numbers of books in print that the Fleming books could. Not as big, but they still had theire place.

Benson's books were sometimes so horribly advertised, or hardly even advertised at all, (TMWTRT came out with little poblic knowledge) that I think it sometimes hurt the sales of them.

[Roebuck]

I'm sure that Fleming, for fairly obvious reasons, sold millions more books than any of the other writers, probably many more than Amis, Gardner and Benson put together.

So would it break down as follows:

FLEMING - a publishing phenomenon, the Stephen King/JK Rowling of his day;

Sadly for Ian, the Bond cash bonanza didn't really start until after his death. Things like President Kennedy listing FRWL as one of his favourite reads and, of course, the EON movies, caused sales of the novels to pick up, but during his lifetime Fleming never earned enough from Bond to do more than live 'comfortably'. Remember that this was a man claimed never to own more than three suits at any one time and had to buy his Bentley second hand.

[Loomis]

Is there an equivalent for novels of Box Office Mojo? Or does Ian Fleming Publications jealously guard the statistics showing precisely how well all the Bond books have done?

[Johnboy007]

Benson's books were sometimes so horribly advertised, or hardly even advertised at all, (TMWTRT came out with little poblic knowledge) that I think it sometimes hurt the sales of them.

Never in my life have a I ever seen an advertisement for any Benson novel.

[Qwerty]

Benson's books were sometimes so horribly advertised, or hardly even advertised at all, (TMWTRT came out with little poblic knowledge) that I think it sometimes hurt the sales of them.

Never in my life have a I ever seen an advertisement for any Benson novel.

Indeed, and I don't mean advertisement in the common sense, but Fleming's and Gardner's work was much more publicized than Benson's has been. Most book stores near me don't even bother to get his new books. (TMWTRT, Face Blind.)

[DLibrasnow]

I would say that Gardner was more successful than Benson with the 007 books. I remember the media frenzy that accompanied first the announcement that Gardner would be writing a Bond novel and then the release of the novel.

You have to remember though that there had not been a new Bond novel at that time for about 15 years. There was no similar gap between Gardner and Benson.

[Double-Oh-Zero]

Yes, I think it's true that Fleming wasn't really commercially successful until the mid 60s, when Bondmania was at it's height. I think Fleming did want that type of sucess from the start, but didn't really get much of it until Goldfinger (film, I mean) almost finished filming.

Amis, I think, was the Lazenby of the Bond Books. There are probably some casual Bond fans out there who don't know he exists.

Gardner was probably the most successful, commercial-wise. As DLibra pointed out, it was 15 years before readers got another Bond literary adventure, the same reason why GoldenEye was so huge when it opened.

Benson. Hmm. I honestly have to say that the only real notifiction that I have of another Benson book coming out is here at CBn. He never got that much attention when his new books were released, which is probably part of the reason why he stopped writing them in the first place.

[zencat]

It's simple. If you want to sell a book you have to advertise it. Fleming was a superstar and was treated as such by his publisher and even his junk (TMWTGG) were bestsellers. Only the first 4 Gardner books received any promotion and, not surprisingly, these are the ones that sold best. Glidrose never put any promotion into the later Gardner books and they didn't sell as well. Glidrose put even LESS promotion into the Benson books (and even dropped the print run numbers -- which is why Benson's books now sell for so much in the collectors market) so it not surprising at all that the books didn't hit the best seller lists. Hell, even some Bond fans didn't know about the Benson books! Yet Benson wrote six EXCELLENT Bond adventures and, IMO, is the best of the continuation novelists.

[DLibrasnow]

Hmmm...I think the plots were good in the Benson books but the editor really should have done a better job because Gardner was the better novelist.

[Loomis]

It's simple. If you want to sell a book you have to advertise it. Fleming was a superstar and was treated as such by his publisher and even his junk (TMWTGG) were bestsellers. Only the first 4 Gardner books received any promotion and, not surprisingly, these are the ones that sold best. Glidrose never put any promotion into the later Gardner books and they didn't sell as well. Glidrose put even LESS promotion into the Benson books (and even dropped the print run numbers -- which is why Benson's books now sell for so much in the collectors market) so it not surprising at all that the books didn't hit the best seller lists. Hell, even some Bond fans didn't know about the Benson books! Yet Benson wrote six EXCELLENT Bond adventures and, IMO, is the best of the continuation novelists.

So, do you have any sales figures, zencat? Or are you able to answer the following questions:

- Was Gardner the most commercially successful of the continuation novelists?

- Did his sales approach those of Fleming?

- Was Benson significantly less successful than Gardner?

- Did the Bensons - to put it bluntly - bomb?

And the big question:

- Did The Powers That Be decide to end the literary series because they realised that no one was interested any more?

[DLibrasnow]

I don't think anyone beyong Bond fans were interested in the Benson novels. Even some 007 fans I know couldn't care less.

[zencat]

So, do you have any sales figures, zencat? Or are you able to answer the following questions:

- Was Gardner the most commercially successful of the continuation novelists?

- Did his sales approach those of Fleming?

- Was Benson significantly less successful than Gardner?

- Did the Bensons - to put it bluntly - bomb?

And the big question:

- Did The Powers That Be decide to end the literary series because they realised that no one was interested any more?

You have to go book by book. License Renewed, I think, was the highest selling of the continuation novels. Yet Benson's Zero Minus Ten outsold most of the later Gardner books. So I'm not sure how you judge who was more successful. Each had books that sold, each had books that didn't. What made the difference was promotion (or lack of it).

And I have no idea why IFP put a stop to the novels (if, indeed, they have). You'll have to ask them that.

[Loomis]

I'm not sure how you judge who was more successful.

Well, I imagine you average it all out and reach a conclusion like: the typical Fleming sold X copies, the typical Gardner sold Y and the typical Benson sold Z. I know nothing about the publishing world, but I'll wager that those who do have various ways and means of deciding which authors are successful and which aren't. Wouldn't be much of a business otherwise.

As for IFP, I presume that they have indeed stopped the literary series for the reason that it is no longer in their financial interest to continue it.

[Roebuck]

As for IFP, I presume that they have indeed stopped the literary series for the reason that it is no longer in their financial interest to continue it.

A while back Jim dug out some facinating statistics, showing that paperback editions of Goldfinger were substantially outselling the latest Benson. I think Zencat will remenber the thread I'm talking about.

[Loomis]

A while back Jim dug out some facinating statistics, showing that paperback editions of Goldfinger were substantially outselling the latest Benson. I think Zencat will remenber the thread I'm talking about.

Yes, I remember that thread, too. Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me: Benson bombed in the marketplace (after creating an initial flurry of interest as the new Bond novelist with "Zero Minus Ten"), and IFP decided, after a while, to knock it on the head. No longer profitable. Case closed. Next!

[Johnboy007]

haha, there seems to be a very "simple" solution. Continue them, but let one author do one book, then get someone new.

[Loomis]

It's funny, but the Bond authors seem to have followed the same "successful"/"unsuccessful" pattern as the Bond actors:

CONNERY - successful
LAZENBY - unsuccessful
MOORE - successful
DALTON - unsuccessful
BROSNAN - successful

FLEMING - successful
AMIS - unsuccessful
GARDNER - successful
BENSON - unsuccessful

[Johnboy007]

That also is not a good sign for the series if the pattern stays true. Can the series handle a flop actor again?

Would IFP bank just on that? I doubt it

The end of Bond as we know it?



Let's pray we break the cycle

Edited by johnboy007, 25 January 2004 - 08:32 PM.

[Qwerty]

I wouldn't say Benson was unsuccessful, but rather not as good as Fleming. It all depends on the marketing of these books, something they need to work on.

[zencat]

GARDNER - successful
BENSON - unsuccessful

How is Gardner successful and Benson not? Gardner wrote 15 books. The first 3 sold well (due to promotion and large print runs). His other 12 were modest sellers (due to a slashing of advertising and low print runs) and some were downright bombs (but, again, this was due to their low print runs. COLD had something a 300 copy printing!).

Benson's wrote 6 books. His first sold very well (due to promotion), his other 5 performed modestly. None "bombed." Yes, Benson didn't sell a million copies. But that's because only 1000 copies of his books were ever printed! (It should be pointed out that the print run of all of the Benson books sold out within ONE WEEK of publication. Only one other author did this: Fleming.)

I don't think there a fair way to compare the authors except on quality (which is subjective). And, for me, Benson wrote the best continuation novels.
.

[Roebuck]

Please believe that the last thing I'm trying to do is needle you over this Zencat. The bottom line is that you rate Benson whilst I don't. Like you said, it's entirely subjective. But of the Benson's I do own; one came free with a video, two were remaindered books and another was free in a newspaper offer. This bloke was writing one of the most famous characters in fiction and yet they were literally having to GIVE his books away in the UK.

Edited by Roebuck, 25 January 2004 - 11:01 PM.

[Roebuck]

(I didn't do anything stupid, like posting the same thing twice. Honest!)

Edited by Roebuck, 25 January 2004 - 11:03 PM.

[DLibrasnow]

How can Benson be the best of the continuation novelists when Gardner had a better grasp of the English language?!

[[dark]]

And the big question:

- Did The Powers That Be decide to end the literary series because they realised that no one was interested any more?

I know this point has been made time and time again, but there is absolutely no reason why the Bond books couldn't be bestsellers again. The character himself is clearly as popular as ever. A little promotion and there's absolutely no reason why Joe Bookworm wouldn't pick up and purchase a 007 novel. People have suggested that the powers that be reach a deal with Eon where they can use such trademarks as the 007 logo or even Pierce's picture, but there's really no need to go even that far. The character is highly recognisable. JAMES BOND! 007! Bang! Right there is all the public needs to know. Heck, if necessary, whack Ian Fleming's name on the cover as well, as on the earlier continuation novels.

I'd say it's more to do with the fact that Gildrose wants us reading Fleming forever and that's it. I'm surprised we're getting those Gardner reprints. With any luck, they'll follow up and republish all of his novels, even if they're in that God-awful omnibus format.

[Loomis]

I don't think there a fair way to compare the authors except on quality (which is subjective). And, for me, Benson wrote the best continuation novels.

For me, Amis was the best, yet I'm perfectly happy to concede that he was "unsuccessful" (note that I put Dalton, whom I also like very much, in the same category). Obviously, sales and quality are different things, and a book that sells by the truckload isn't automatically good, just as a book that sells poorly isn't automatically bad.

But I started this thread to discuss commercial performance, not quality. And I don't think comparing the authors' sales is not a "fair" thing to do. We talk about the grosses of the films all the time, so why not talk about how well the novels have done in the marketplace?

[Jim]

If I can locate any more detailed figures I will put them up

But (quality aside, and I agree that given that we tend to compare grosses of films, why not grosses of books - cold hard fact rather than subjectivity)...

...it basically pans out as

Fleming - Extraordinary. Nothing else comes close. Only worth comparing those who followed against each other.

Amis/Markham - Comparatively poor (but in comparison, even Amis' finest novels would still be nowhere near Fleming. Colonel Sun outsold three of Amis' own books.)

Gardner - Started well - first three each outsold Colonel Sun. Tailed off considerably with Role of Honour. COLD is almost non-existent.

Benson - Started at lower sales to the first three Gardners. More consistent than Gardner, the first four sold at more or less the same (albeit low) level. Never Dream of Dying not so good. The Man with the Red Tattoo similar to COLD - almost off the scale (wrong end). The novelisations don't sell in hardback, basically, except to collectors.

NB This is info for hardback editions only. Paperbacks, given the tendency to "buy one, get eleven free" is harder to get any sort of information about.

[Loomis]

Fleming - Extraordinary. Nothing else comes close. Only worth comparing those who followed against each other.

Amis/Markham - Comparatively poor (but in comparison, even Amis' finest novels would still be nowhere near Fleming. Colonel Sun outsold three of Amis' own books.)

Gardner - Started well - first three each outsold Colonel Sun. Tailed off considerably with Role of Honour. COLD is almost non-existent.

Benson - Started at lower sales to the first three Gardners. More consistent than Gardner, the first four sold at more or less the same (albeit low) level. Never Dream of Dying not so good. The Man with the Red Tattoo similar to COLD - almost off the scale (wrong end). The novelisations don't sell in hardback, basically, except to collectors.

Hmmm.... seems that what's true of the film series isn't true of the literary series.

We've seen that the film series can thrive without the original guy, Connery - as long as there's a Bond actor whom the public likes (Moore and Brosnan, not Lazenby and Dalton), it'll be Bondmania like it's 1965.

But it appears that the literary series has never really thrived without the original guy, Fleming - he's the one writer whom the public likes (and, indeed, has heard of). (The public at large, I mean, not hardcore Bond aficionados.) At best, it's been kind of artificially kept clinging to life, but it's never thrived - even at his peak, Gardner never rivalled Fleming in sales.

Fleming's not "one of several", like Connery - he's the Only One.

[zencat]

Amis/Markham - Comparatively poor (but in comparison, even Amis' finest novels would still be nowhere near Fleming. Colonel Sun outsold three of Amis' own books.)

Gardner - Started well - first three each outsold Colonel Sun. Tailed off considerably with Role of Honour. COLD is almost non-existent.

Benson - Started at lower sales to the first three Gardners. More consistent than Gardner, the first four sold at more or less the same (albeit low) level. Never Dream of Dying not so good. The Man with the Red Tattoo similar to COLD - almost off the scale (wrong end). The novelisations don't sell in hardback, basically, except to collectors.

NB This is info for hardback editions only. Paperbacks, given the tendency to "buy one, get eleven free" is harder to get any sort of information about.

Thanks for this info, Jim.

I would love anymore info (hard numbers). You can PM me if you like.

[B007GLE]

I think that the book series can thrive agian but ythey have to do it correctly: publiciszing it would help but also get a writer who the book buying public would be interested in. Get an established novelist to write one or two not six or seven because frankly it's hard to come up with something that works with Bond but seems new at the same time.