90 replies to this topic

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Simon
5?

I need more coffee... (4)

[Simon]

Pain in the ***, aren't I?

I'll join you.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Bond was a dirty dog in that one...

[BONDFINESSE 007]

everybody gets it but the one that truly loves him....moneypenny

[zencat]

Originally posted by Jaelle
Hmm, Zencat, you certainly opened up a very provocative subject.

Thanks, Jaelle. I try.

Quite a while ago I posted a topic on whether or not, technically, Bond raped Miss Taro in DR NO (I think I called it "DR NO MEANS NO"). That is another conquest I've always been a little uncomfortable with.

[Blofeld's Cat]

[quote]Originally posted by zencat
What's everyone

[zencat]

Oh, hey, that's right. Bond didn't know she was a virgin...did he?

But did he know she was 17 years old?

[Bryce (003)]

True - The old boy realized it (after the fact) but he can't be blamed for her decision.

When a lady makes that decision, it's for her own reasons. I doubt James wondered "Why me?"....Some spies might, but not 007.

[zencat]

Is Solitaire a virgin in the book as well? I can't remember. I would certainly like to hear Fleming's take on the matter.

Guess I could go check. I only have 18 copies of the book on hand.

[Bryce (003)]

That's clearly a problem...He is dead after all....

[Blofeld's Cat]

Originally posted by zencat
Is Solitaire a virgin in the book as well? I can't remember. I would certainly like to hear Fleming's take on the matter.

Guess I could go check. I only have 18 copies of the book on hand.

I can see how that could be a problem.

"I'll look in this one....no wait, in this one.....hang on, I should check this one out.....but wait...."

[Bryce (003)]

Zencat does have that problem...I trust he's learned to deal with it.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Like Solitaire.

[ray t]

Originally posted by zencat


Quite a while ago I posted a topic on whether or not, technically, Bond raped Miss Taro in DR NO (I think I called it "DR NO MEANS NO"). That is another conquest I've always been a little uncomfortable with.

umm...she knew she was the bait that would lure bond (to his death) when she called him...she was playing a dirty game and would know the consequences of her actions

when bond found out she was on the 'other side', it was bound to be a, *COUGH*, 'free-for-all'

taro knew she had to 'entertain' him for the evening to keep the ruse going and to detain him until her mission was accomplished

she knew the stakes...bond cunningly (and for his own amusement) merely "UPED" the ante:D

how's that rape?

you're talking about devious players playing a dirty game. there's no innocence about miss taro in the least.

(btw, lets not get into fleming's views on women and 'semi-rape')

[zencat]

I don't remember. I made a case for it at the time. Let's me try and find the old thread and we can discuss there. Let's keep or virgins and our rape victims separate.

Wow. I can't believe I found it so quickly (considering how old it is). It didn't really catch fire. Here: Dr No means No

[4 Ur Eyez Only]

Isn't it strange Roger tricks solitaire into having sex with him... but in fyeo, Roger wouldn't have sex with bibi doll..

:eek:

[Xenobia]

There are several points I would like to address. I promise I will try to make them all make sense.

Solitare's age, sexual status, and color, are dubious in the novel. The only thing we know for sure is that Mr. Big thinks she is "difficult" because she will have nothing to do with men. Of course in the novel this isn't the case. Solitare will have plenty to do with men, just not with Mr. Big.

The movie is more intriguing. It does add that edge of "magic" to Solitare's virginity, but frankly I don't buy that, and I don't think she really does either. It's a convenient shield to keeping her virginity, and if she was really concerned about her "powers" she wouldn't have slept with Bond. If anything, I think Solitare wanted to "expand" her powers, that is she knows the power a woman can have when she uses sex, and power she got.

As for Bond's culpability, again, the ultimate decision was Solitare's. There was no tricking going on, both parties knew what they were doing.
Bond would never rape a woman, and if Solitare told him to back off, he would have. Period, end of debate.

And speaking of debates, I love that line "No woman can resist Bond, not even lesibans." In reality, yes, a lesiban would resist Bond because again, he's not her type. Of course we all know the implications of Pussy Galore, both in the novel and in the movie. In the novel, Fleming is putting his own prejudice and prowness on Bond, and that's dishonest and inaccurate in terms of what a lesiban might chose to do. In the movie, it's never implied that Pussy is a lesiban, so her moments with Bond are completely natural.

Any woman can resist any man, if she wants to. The question is, what does she want?

-- Xenobia

[Simon]

Originally posted by ray t

you're talking about devious players playing a dirty game. there's no innocence about miss taro in the least.

A case of, he knew she knew he knew she knew.

Quite right.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Originally posted by Simon


A case of, he knew she knew he knew she knew.

LOL

Almost makes it downright civil of them both.

[Mister Asterix]

From Solitaire’s perspective, I think this was all what she dreamed of; a knight in shining armour showing up and rescuing her from the dragon Kananga and taking her cursed virginity.

Her hesitation with sleeping with Bond was not at all because she didn’t want to have sex with him; she wanted it heart and soul. Neither was her hesitation because she knew she would lose her powers. No, Solitaire’s hesitation was because she knew if she did this that Kanaga would kill her and that she had only Bond to protect her from him. It was all a matter of was this knight capable of slaying this dragon.

That, my friends, was her conundrum.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Xenobia
The movie is more intriguing.  It does add that edge of "magic" to Solitare's virginity, but frankly I don't buy that, and I don't think she really does either.  It's a convenient shield to keeping her virginity, and if she was really concerned about her "powers" she wouldn't have slept with Bond.  If anything, I think Solitare wanted to "expand" her powers, that is she knows the power a woman can have when she uses sex, and power she got.

Whoops! :eek: Xenobia just revealed the secret of women. I'm going to add this to the manual.

But seriously, Xen, another very well observed post. And the difference between the book Solitaire and the film Solitaire is quite intriguing.

Originally posted by Mister Asterix
From Solitaire’s perspective, I think this was all what she dreamed of; a knight in shining armour showing up and rescuing her from the dragon Kananga and taking her cursed virginity.

Her hesitation with sleeping with Bond was not at all because she didn’t want to have sex with him; she wanted it heart and soul. Neither was her hesitation because she knew she would lose her powers. No, Solitaire’s hesitation was because she knew if she did this that Kanaga would kill her and that she had only Bond to protect her from him. It was all a matter of was this knight capable of slaying this dragon.

That, my friends, was her conundrum.

Yep, yep, yep. I think you nailed it Mr. *.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by zencat
Thanks, Jaelle. I try.

Good for you, more power to you!

Quite a while ago I posted a topic on whether or not, technically, Bond raped Miss Taro in DR NO (I think I called it "DR NO MEANS NO"). That is another conquest I've always been a little uncomfortable with. [/B]

Hmm, I hate to agree with you on this but yes, I've never quite been comfortable with that scene either. Still, I know this will probably sound like a copout on my part but (unlike Solitaire), Miss Taro was an adult woman who made certain choices, bad ones, and there are consequences to those choices...

[Jaelle]

Hmm, I suppose I am alone here in this thread. But I will reiterate my case. And I do disagree with Xenobia on this.

I won't discuss the novel because (I'm ashamed to say) I haven't read it. I haven't read all of Fleming's Bond novels, just 6 novels and all the short stories that I could find.

For me, it is quite clear in LALD that Solitaire is *not* an adult, neither mentally nor emotionally. She has led an extremely narrow existence completely under the control of the powerful men around her. The way she responds, the way she behaves, the ways she reacts throughout the film is extremely childlike. Hell, at 12 my daughter had more sophistication and self-knowledge, and an awareness of the world, than Solitaire does at 17. Talking about Solitaire as if she's a self-aware, independent, free, mature, responsible woman flatly contradicts what we see on the screen. It's also a convenient argument to resort to if you want to let Bond off scot free.

Solitaire responds and acts like a child -- a child under the control of powerful men who have always controlled her life, one man in particular. What in the world does she know about life, about herself, about ANYTHING, let alone sex and love? Can Solitaire do whatever she pleases without Kanaga's knowledge and consent? Can she go wherever she wants to go? Can she associate with whoever she wants to without his consent? And is she capable of making any decisions without checking the cards first? Exactly what independent decisions is she capable of making without risking her life and without consulting the cards?

She has complete belief in the power of the cards. She has no sense of herself as an independent instrument capable of *acting* rather than reacting. There are only two things that guide her existence: Kananga's will and the cards. It doesn't matter if you or I looking from outside objectively can say "well she could run away, she could resist." None of that matters. You can't say that to a child whose life is controlled by others, and who doesn't know any other way of reacting or behaving or responding. In Solitaire's mind, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE EXCEPT TO SAY YES TO POWERFUL MEN.

If Solitaire were 14 years old and Bond acted in the same way, would it still be all up to her, and would Bond have absolutely no responsibility for his actions and *his* choices? That 14 year old girl might certainly *want* go to bed with Bond (look at Bibi!) but is she a responsible, mature, fully self-aware adult? Is James Bond so completely blameless in everything he does that he has no responsibility for ANY of his actions?

One of Bond's many skills is in pinpointing and exploiting the bad guy's weakness(es). He thus correctly identifies Kananga's weakest link -- Solitaire -- and exploits that weakness to throw Kananga's operation in disarray. Bond also obviously *knows* that Solitaire is easily manipulated thru the cards, he recognizes her for what she is: terribly childlike, easily led. He makes the correct choice in completing his mission. But just because it's the correct choice doesn't mean it's all free of complications or moral ambiguity.

Certainly Solitaire is curious about Bond, he obviously excites her. So what? Do you know many 12 and 14 year old girls out there are sexually curious and excited by their favorite actors or singers? Does that mean that if one of those actors tried seducing one of those 14 year olds for his own ulterior motives, then it would be perfectly acceptable because "she made her choice?"

Without the lovers card drawn, would she have submitted to Bond's charms? If he had simply tried to seduce her without any card tricks, would she have so easily risked her life and her power and succumbed to him? Before she sees that card drawn, she quite effectively keeps herself closed off from him. It's possible she might have, anything's possible. Maybe if he'd had time, Bond might've managed to convince her, who knows. But I don't think it would've been a particularly easy job to convince her. It would've taken quite some time.

Ideally, Solitaire's "awakening" or introduction into the big, real world out there, and the beginnings of her emotional and mental growth would've happened slowly, sensitively, carefully. Unfortunately, time doesn't allow for it to happen that way. So she's very abruptly forced into growing up. And that has *consequences*.

At any rate, that she is a *child* emotionally is, for me, obvious. Look at the way she acts after being "deflowered." Watch her on that bed, the way she moons over Bond. She acts just like some giddy little teenager who has a massive crush on this powerful adult, sophisticated man who's just taken her to bed. Hell, she acts more like a 12 or 13 year old than a 17 year old.

And as she is a child, I'm pretty certain about what happens to her after Bond leaves her and goes on to his next mission. She's devastated, hurt, confused, lost. All the powerful adults around her are gone, and she's suddenly been forced to be an adult herself. She suddenly has to make her own decisions about her life, but she's had absolutely no preparation or experience for that. She doesn't have any loving parent nearby to guide her.

I'm sure someone out there thinks I'm bashing Bond but if you read my first post on this, you'd know I'm not. My argument here is much more nuanced than that. My point is that the whole Bond-Solitaire thing is not as simple as it looks from either side of the debate. I'm not out to demonize Bond but neither do I like protecting him from critical judgment, like he's some sort of paragon of angelic virtue to be worshipped and defended no matter what.

[zencat]

Wow. Very well said, Jaelle. You're right. There is no indication whatsoever that Solitaire is an adult in anyway except her body. She really is characterized as a child. Even more so after her deflowering.

A thought.

Wouldn't it have been nice to have had a beat, maybe at the very end, that revealed Solitaire STILL very much has her powers. Her virginity had nothing to do with it. That was just a way she, and her mother before her, kept the Kanagas of the world at bay while waiting for their James Bond to come along.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Jaelle
Without the lovers card drawn, would she have submitted to Bond's charms?  If he had simply tried to seduce her without any card tricks, would she have so easily risked her life and her power and succumbed to him?  Before she sees that card drawn, she quite effectively keeps herself closed off from him.  It's possible she might have, anything's possible.  Maybe if he'd had time, Bond might've managed to convince her, who knows.  But I don't think it would've been a particularly easy job to convince her.  It would've taken quite some time.

So Bond using the lover card on her was the equivalent of a man saying "I love you" just to get a woman into bed. To Solitaire, and to a girl without experience, they are both sacred promises that "I'm the one."

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by zencat
Wouldn't it have been nice to have had a beat, maybe at the very end, that revealed Solitaire STILL very much has her powers. Her virginity had nothing to do with it. That was just a way she, and her mother before her, kept the Kanagas of the world at bay while waiting for their James Bond to come along.

Now something like that would've been great! I would've loved to have seen some kind of expression on Solitaire's face, or heard her say *something* that showed that she'd become a bit stronger, and had found some measure of strength in figuring herself out after Bond leaves. But at the end of the film, she still looks very much like an innocent child to me.

So Bond using the lover card on her was the equivalent of a man saying "I love you" just to get a woman into bed. To Solitaire, and to a girl without experience, they are both sacred promises that "I'm the one."[/B]

That's good, Zencat, yes. Nice way to explain it. By the way, I apologize to you and everyone else for that long post that came off too strong. To be honest, this is the first time I've actually taken the time to really think thru the Solitaire thing carefully.

[zencat]

No, no need to apologize, Jaelle. Your post didn't come off "too strong" at all. It came off as intelligent and very well expressed. I'm really happy at how you

[Xenobia]

Originally posted by zencat
Wow. Very well said, Jaelle. You're right. There is no indication whatsoever that Solitaire is an adult in anyway except her body. She really is characterized as a child. Even more so after her deflowering.

A thought.

Wouldn't it have been nice to have had a beat, maybe at the very end, that revealed Solitaire STILL very much has her powers. Her virginity had nothing to do with it. That was just a way she, and her mother before her, kept the Kanagas of the world at bay while waiting for their James Bond to come along.

I hate to say it Zencat, but on this point, we must disagree. I think the whole point of Solitare losing her virginity was to give up her magic powers (which were in question to begin with), to find her real powers that come from only her, that can never be taken away. Those are the powers of a mature women who knows what she wants when she wants it.

Her first step to maturity was to know she wanted Bond, and to accept that in order to have him, she had to make some changes in her life. She reviewed the risks, and decided he was worth it. When he left her, she may have wondered if he was really worth it, but Solitare strikes me as the type who would have eventually taken Bond as a learning experience (which is really the only way you can take a man like him), and move on.

-- Xenobia

[zencat]

Originally posted by Xenobia
I hate to say it Zencat, but on this point, we must disagree.  I think the whole point of Solitare losing her virginity was to give up her magic powers (which were in question to begin with), to find her real powers that come from only her, that can never be taken away.  Those are the powers of a mature women who knows what she wants when she wants it.

But that's sort of what my idea would suggest. She lost nothing. She "gave up" nothing. Virginity had nothing to do with her "power." It's all still there, but now she's out in the world and free. And it would also tell us, with a wink, that Solitaire was not the naive young thing she pretended to be around Kananga (and Bond). She knew exactly what she was doing.

As the movie ends now, Solitaire seems less powerful than ever and just heading for a world of hurt when Bond dumps her at the next station. Maybe she's on her way to becoming another...Xenia Onatop?

Hmmm, there's another idea. A killer henchwoman is revealed to an ex-lover of Bond

[ray t]

there are so many things that have been said on this page of the thread that i'd like to put my two cents in:

firstly Jaelle, a 12 year old new york girl in 2003, i'd say, would probably be more 'worldly' than a 17 year old growing up in the 3rd world in 1972 (sheltered or not)

secondly, in reference to solitaire, i really think it was in large part a case of "SELF FULFILLING PROPHESY"

remember, the lovers card was not only drawn by bond in harlem, but by solitaire herself in her cliff top home in san moniqe in the remote reading to kananga where she's advising him that bond is coming by water, bringing with him violence.

it is at that reading that solitare (out of complete and utter FEAR) has to make a choice: to LIE or NOT to LIE to her master.

when kananga asks her "is it death?" she hessitates...the foundations of her world are about to be shaken...Kananga demands again "i said, is it death!?" he only wants one answer...she cannot give him the truthful answer or it will certainly mean HER death. its at that point that she has to make her choice. the cards (which are the world to her and in which she truly believes ("they've never lied to me")) tells her that bond and her are to be lovers. she cannot reveal the truth to Kananga...instead "it is death".

i truly feel that from solitaire's point of view "it was in the cards" ( a cliche' we use in our lives from time to time.)

THAT exact point changed her world view. This propells her to make her later choice: to give her self to (a very attractive) bond, who 1) could possibly be the "white knight who could slay her dragon" and 2) could open the world for her to be "a complete woman".

from bonds perspective its pretty straight forward: if he has to 'trick' his way into moving forward his mission, then he will do it. that's just bond. pretty plain and simple there.

thirdly, Jaelle, you say u dont want to demonize bond but you dont want to hold him up as being a paragon of angelic virtue.

er, the thing is, its VERY HARD to 'demonize' someone who is the "lesser of two evils" and who, in fact, is out to destroy extreme evil. and the other thing is that bond (in Live And Let Die) is no where near a 'paragon of angelic virtue'. in fact he exhibits the same characteristics that ConneryBond exibits in the miss taro scene in Dr No:

i've commented in a previous post on this page about (paraphrasing) 'dirty players playing a devious/dirty game' in the bond-taro case. its the EXACT same thing in the bond-rosie carver 'pic-nic' scene:

bond suspects carver as a deceitful, perverse liar and a cheat (the queen of cups card in the upside down position, changing her story about precisely WHERE bains was killed) and uses her for sex, a modus operandi to complete the mission.

after their tryst, he points his walther at her temple and demands answers. if she doesnt answer, he will kill her. when she retorts something to the effect of "you couldnt kill me...not after what we've just done", the response by MooreBond is priceless: 'well i cetainly wouldnt have done it BEFORE'.

a TOTAL slap in the face...a uniqe MooreBond moment in the mould of ConneryBond scenes with miss taro and 'marie' in Diamonds Are Forever pre-titles.

no angelic virtue there for sure!

fourthly (and finally!), it really is of little concern what happens to solitaire after they dis-embark from the baron-samedi mounted train:

bond is the man who took her virginity; the world is her's to explore; she's already proven to be the opportunist (deceptively switching back sides at the airport when the white knight looks as if he's miserably failed); he was only her first; shes now an experienced woman; there's more lovers to come....

THE END:cool: