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Do Americans, on the whole, like Bond films less than people in other countries do?


152 replies to this topic

#61 Loomis

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Kristian

EON's desperate attempts to court the "young male demographic"...

1.  Hiring Teri Hatcher for TND because she's the most downloaded female on the Internet, circa 1997.

2.  Hiring Denise Richards for TWINE, because of WILD THINGS and because she's the most downloaded female on the Internet, circa 1999.  

3.  Hiring Halle Berry for DAD because she flashed her tits in SWORDFISH.

4.  Hiring Madonna for the DAD song because, well, she's Madonna.  


I wonder who they'd look at if they were making a Bond film right now. Elisha Cuthbert as a Bond girl? Eminem for the title song?

Originally posted by Kristian

And let's face it, DAD's $160 million dollar U.S. Gross is nothing to brag about.  I seem to recall a report saying that EON expected a $200 million dollar U.S. take.    Even so, for a film with a combined budget and marketing cost of upwards of $160 million, that's nothing to cream your jeans about.    

And they had to huff and puff, and wheeze and sneeze, and "Yo-mama"-fy, and thrown in Robocop and face-changing and basically throw out most things Bondian to get that kind of money.  

I honestly believe it's a lost cause.  EON should give up on its pipe dream, cut the films' budgets, and settle for GE, TWINE, and TND-type grosses.  


So they're pandering to American audiences and still failing? Wow. Not good. I didn't know that DAD cost significantly more than the other Brosnan Bonds. I wonder whether they'll really tighten their belts for the next one.

#62 Kristian

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Loomis


I wonder whether they'll really tighten their belts for the next one.


They ought to. What's wrong with having a good solid hit? GOLDENEYE has the best BUDGET vs PROFIT of all the Brosnan Bonds because it didn't cost that much.

It's this massive hard-on that EON has for box-office glory that might prove to be the franchise's undoing. They're busy trying to win GENERATION Y's bucks, that they may end up alienating the true fans of the series.

Or as an old Japanese proverb goes, "The Numbskull Who Chases Two Women Ends Up Losing Both."

... or words to that effect.

#63 Dr.Carl Mortner

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:20 PM

Kristian, $160 million is about as well as any similar movie does these days (what about xXx's $141 million? Now THAT was a movie that pandered to the aforementioned demographic big time).

I'll say it yet again -- when Mission Imossible 20 (yeah, right) comes out sometime in the 2050's, THEN we can talk. Look at all the franchises of the '80s alone that the Bond series has left in its wake: Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, Rambo. All of those series were supposed to be the next big things, yet all faltered after two or three sequels.

I'll say another thing again though: America still hasn't gotten over their post-Vietnam fear of men in suits. The hippie movement really did do the Bond image in...

#64 DLibrasnow

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Kristian
Personally, I think that given a choice between the latest MISSION IMPOSSIBLE offering versus the latest Bond film, more Americans will see MI.  In fact, I know more Americans who scoff at Bond, than actually like him.  I seem to be in the minority where I live.


You are not alone Kristian.
In my office everyone around me referred to DAD as "the new Halle Berry movie" ...some people said it was the first time they had ever seen a James Bond movie and while they didn't like the character Pierce Brosnan played, they did like Halle Berry in the picture...

#65 Jriv71

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:35 PM

You work with retards, then. Who the Hell (unless they're joking) actually called it the new Halle Berry movie? I'm not offended by that because I'm a Bond fan, I just think it's very stupid. They may not like James Bond movies, that's certainly their right, but that's like calling that new Star Wars one the new Samuel Jackson movie. (He was in that right?) Those people are either pulling your chain, or they're extremely stupid.

#66 Loomis

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner

Kristian, $160 million is about as well as any similar movie does these days (what about xXx's $141 million? Now THAT was a movie that pandered to the aforementioned demographic big time).  


But xXx was a much smaller movie than DAD. No one expected it to be an all-conquering blockbuster. OTOH, DAD was intended as a megamovie that would bring in megabucks.

I'm curious as to what DAD's US performance means for BOND 21. Will The Powers That Be piss away another vast fortune in an even more naked attempt to capture the hearts of shopping mall kids on skateboards (what next, Bond in the hood? Teaming up with CIA agent Ja Rule? And who will be BOND 21's equivalent of Halle Berry? Jennifer Lopez?), or will they try to go back to basics and give us another LIVING DAYLIGHTS, a film with a strongly British flavour?

#67 Genrewriter

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:46 PM

I agree with Jriv, DLibra. That has to be one of the most insanely inane comments I have ever heard. You do have some ammo for ribbing your co-workers now, though. I suggest a big photo of Halle with Pierce's head Photoshopped onto it, or the reverse.

#68 Dr.Carl Mortner

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:48 PM

Theory #2: People who have not seen a Bond movie since the Sean Connery epoch may still associate him with callous, casual sex, statutory rape, slapping women and overall abuse of the female gender, thus causing them to be reluctant to see newer Bond movies.

Look at how Bond movies were marketed back in the '60s. I quote from a trailer for OHMSS: "You think your girl is a beauty -- check out THIS guy's dolls." Yes, it was a different era, but the Bond series is one of the few remaining vestiges of that era and it takes a lot of flack for it.

Theory #3: Those who have not seen a Bond movie since the Roger Moore era probably still associate Bond with midget henchmen, double-taking pigeons, Tarzan yells and a lot of silliness in general that is NOT, by the way, Roger Moore's fault.

#69 Dr.Carl Mortner

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:55 PM

"But xXx was a much smaller movie than DAD. No one expected it to be an all-conquering blockbuster. OTOH, DAD was intended as a megamovie that would bring in megabucks."

When a movie is marketed to replace a 40-year-old mainstay of cinema, that's a pretty big claim that bespeaks a big movie.

#70 Loomis

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner

"But xXx was a much smaller movie than DAD. No one expected it to be an all-conquering blockbuster. OTOH, DAD was intended as a megamovie that would bring in megabucks."

When a movie is marketed to replace a 40-year-old mainstay of cinema, that's a pretty big claim that bespeaks a big movie.  


That was just marketing bluster, though. You think the makers of xXx seriously expected their film to kill off 007?

xXx didn't cost enough to be a megamovie that would make megabucks. DAD did.

Bond is an icon. And yet DAD was outgrossed in the States by MY BIG FAT GREEK WEDDING to the tune of nearly $100 million. Isn't that as embarrassing for the people who make the Bond films as it would be for the folks at Lucasfilm if EPISODE II had been thrashed at the box office by BEND IT LIKE BECKHAM?

#71 Jaelle

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner
Theory #2: People who have not seen a Bond movie since the Sean Connery epoch may still associate him with callous, casual sex, statutory rape, slapping women and overall abuse of the female gender, thus causing them to be reluctant to see newer Bond movies.
Look at how Bond movies were marketed back in the '60s. I quote from a trailer for OHMSS: "You think your girl is a beauty -- check out THIS guy's dolls." Yes, it was a different era, but the Bond series is one of the few remaining vestiges of that era and it takes a lot of flack for it.
Theory #3: Those who have not seen a Bond movie since the Roger Moore era probably still associate Bond with midget henchmen, double-taking pigeons, Tarzan yells and a lot of silliness in general that is NOT, by the way, Roger Moore's fault.


If this is the case, then clearly these *MASSIVE* PR budgets for Brosnan's Bond films are not doing their jobs for US audiences. Clearly, Brosnan--no matter how good he is--has been unable to erase the memory of Connery and Moore from the minds of US audiences.

Yet the audiences that the Bond films are directed to are far too young to remember much of Connery or Moore, so how does one explain it then? I keep going back to the same thing: in today's world of the internet and at-home entertainment systems unheard of in previous decades, NO film action hero can capture the attention and devotion of audiences the way they did in the past.

Oh and by the way, I have *loved* all of Kristian's posts to this thread!

#72 DanMan

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 05:43 PM

160 Millions is actually quite a lot. DAD outgrossed every other spy movie released that year (correct me if I'm wrong). Beside B.O. Gross, you have to take DVD's into account, and DAD was a huge success, becoming one of the highest selling DVD's of all time.

Originally posted by Loomis


That was just marketing bluster, though. You think the makers of xXx seriously expected their film to kill off 007?  

xXx didn't cost enough to be a megamovie that would make megabucks. DAD did.

Bond is an icon. And yet DAD was outgrossed in the States by MY BIG FAT GREEK WEDDING to the tune of nearly $100 million. Isn't that as embarrassing for the people who make the Bond films as it would be for the folks at Lucasfilm if EPISODE II had been thrashed at the box office by BEND IT LIKE BECKHAM?


That's cause practically every female in the world has seen MY BIG FAT GREE WEDDING. Chicks are obsessive with that movie! My old girlfriend made me watch that with her like ten times.

#73 DLibrasnow

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Jriv71
You work with retards, then.  Who the Hell (unless they're joking) actually called it the new Halle Berry movie?  I'm not offended by that because I'm a Bond fan, I just think it's very stupid.  They may not like James Bond movies, that's certainly their right, but that's like calling that new Star Wars one the new Samuel Jackson movie.  (He was in that right?)  Those people are either pulling your chain, or they're extremely stupid.


It's just Halle Berry is the IT girl of the moment and a lot of the people see James Bond as a pop culture icon of the 1960s. One comment that is heard a lot is "Oh yeah, I think my parents liked those movies when they were younger".

#74 DanMan

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 05:52 PM

You should all also take into account DAD's "nickname" when it was marketed for Pay-per-view.

"This years HOTTEST action movie."

And for those of you that don't know, "hot" is another word for very popular.

#75 Dr.Carl Mortner

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 06:16 PM

"Yet the audiences that the Bond films are directed to are far too young to remember much of Connery or Moore, so how does one explain it then?"

This brings me to Theory #4: Many people -- including critics -- would have you believe that all Bond movies are the same (the "you've seen one, you've seen 'em all" argument). The Bond back catalogue has been presented on television ad infinitum; TBS did its Bond marathons on what seemed like a monthly basis back in the '90s and ABC aired Bonds whenever it needed a ratings shot in the arm. I think many people wonder why they should go see a James Bond movie in the theatre when they're always on TV anyway. Even during Bond's darkest days, the older Bond films always seemed to bring in good TV ratings in the States. Perhaps there's such a thing as overexposure.

#76 Jaelle

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 06:18 PM

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner
Perhaps there's such a thing as overexposure.


Bingo! I think you've nailed it.

#77 Turn

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner
"Yet the audiences that the Bond films are directed to are far too young to remember much of Connery or Moore, so how does one explain it then?"  

This brings me to Theory #4: Many people -- including critics -- would have you believe that all Bond movies are the same (the "you've seen one, you've seen 'em all" argument). The Bond back catalogue has been presented on television ad infinitum; TBS did its Bond marathons on what seemed like a monthly basis back in the '90s and ABC aired Bonds whenever it needed a ratings shot in the arm. I think many people wonder why they should go see a James Bond movie in the theatre when they're always on TV anyway. Even during Bond's darkest days, the older Bond films always seemed to bring in good TV ratings in the States. Perhaps there's such a thing as overexposure.


And they still are on Spike TV or whatever they are calling it now. At any given time, you're likely to find either a Bond film or a Star Trek TNG episode playing.

#78 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 07:59 PM

"Sorry... Sometimes I forget this is a PG-13 site."

LOL you slipped a few naughty bits through the cracks! Great post though... :)

#79 Mourning Becomes Electra

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Jaelle


If this is the case, then clearly these *MASSIVE* PR budgets for Brosnan's Bond films are not doing their jobs for US audiences.  Clearly, Brosnan--no matter how good he is--has been unable to erase the memory of Connery and Moore from the minds of US audiences.  

Yet the audiences that the Bond films are directed to are far too young to remember much of Connery or Moore, so how does one explain it then?  I keep going back to the same thing:  in today's world of the internet and at-home entertainment systems unheard of in previous decades, NO film action hero can capture the attention and devotion of audiences the way they did in the past.  

Oh and by the way, I have *loved* all of Kristian's posts to this thread!


Mmmm......... yes the cultural phenomenon of Connery as Bond in the 60's will most likely never be approached again by a single action hero... but even his B.O. in the U.S. was cut in half from the heights of TB down to YOLT a mere year later and then OHMSS cut that in half again. Nothing stays at that kind of peak. Just look at the numbers for the latest Star Wars film. Or even how the 2nd Harry Potter film didn't do as welll in the U.S. That's just the way movie franchises go. As for erasing memories, why would they want to?

As for the Moore spectre in the US only one of his films crack the top 10 adjusted while all the Brosnan films make it. More people went to the theater to see DAD than have seen any Bond film in the US since YOLT. (that's 35 years! And that's with all the PPV and DVD and Cable climate etc) So yeah I'd say the massive PR budgets (almost all done with cross promotional product placement $'s because they want to be associated with a sucessful money earning Bond so they can make more money) have worked as have *gasp* the last 4 films which all have pretty good multipliers for action films which shows they have repeat business and good legs and their B.O. is not merely a product of hype.

And the audience for DAD was 2/3rds over age 25. Omega, Aston Martin, Brioni, Finlandia, Norelco et al aren't paying money to market toward the kiddies. Yes they're a significant part of the Bond market, and yes they directed some marketing toward them but just a portion, just as they always have even back in the 60's when seemingly every kid had a Corgi.

XXX wasn't expected to be a huge blockbuster? Says who? Not Sony. They spent a reported $50-75m in advertising for it just in the U.S, starting with Superbowl ads. They shouted from the rooftops that there's was the new Bond and would bury the old. They were expecting Rush Hour B.O. numbers and said so often (even opened the film in the same slot w/o any competition), and they needed them because the film made about $120m outside the U.S. (ditto Rush Hour) They're already saying the next will be filmed just in the U.S... why.. to cut the budget... and it was already relativley cheap b/c they filmed it in Prague the European destination of choice of budget films.

As for this often stated concept of budget to profit ratio, that they should make the Bond films for less and get less in revenue like the Bourne Identity (1/2 of what DAD made WW, and no dount the Bourne Identity II's budget will rise)... um that only works if they can make as much profit with that unspent money on another project and they can't. If MGM isn't spending that extra $50m on Bond what exactly are they investing it in? Another 1/2 the budget of Windtalkers or Hart's War? Or maybe the next Aston Kutcher Comedy. Legally Blonde 3? Jeepers Creepers 3? They're not going to make the kind of profit from any other film than they are from Bond, almost gaurunted profit at this point. And Bond is the only film EON currently make, so what's their incentive to make less.... and no they aren't going to make the same from a rumored Jinx franchsie.

As for GE's comparativley low budget, credit that to one cheap star who took less $ to do Bond, most likely many other behind the scenes crew who took less money b/c it was a make or break film for the franchise and that MGM wouldn't give a bigger budget, and some dodgy model and blue screen work that people b*tched and moaned about when the film came out and now can't seem to remember they b*tched and moaned about. Not to mention the usual general b*tching and moaning that it had too much action and not enough character or sweep or grit or whatever... basically what people have been complaining about since Goldfinger back in '64.

No one I know called it the Halle Berry film, it was more like, oh Halle Berry is in it, I'll see it anyway. Different strokes. Eh? She may be a media icon now but she's never opened a film on her own, even in the U.S. to any kind of financial success and virtually has no International fan base which is why she wanted to do Bond. DLibrasnow have you read the reviews, fans and critics alike and seen what they've said about Halle in DAD? Not on the whole very complimentary. I actually liked her (not great by any means but not the worst as so many have proclaimed) in the film but know I'm in the minority.

Finally (b/c this post is already too frigging huge), no one I know listens to country music, owns a pick up truck, or plays a banjo.... but then I come from the hayseed town of NYC, so what do we know about real Americans.:cool:

#80 DanMan

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 09:29 PM

I don't know anyone who listens to country music, owns a pickup truck, or plays a banjo either. :).

I don't understand why people get annoyed that EON hired Berry to increase the NA Box Office. After all, LALD tried to cash in on the blaxplotation craze, TMWTGG tried to cash in on the Kung-fu craze, and MR tried to cash in on Star Wars' success.

#81 Mourning Becomes Electra

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 09:44 PM

The cashing in on the popularity of the Avengers chicks to increase B.O. and profile doesn't seem to bother many either... but then they weren't dreaded banjo playing Americans. :)

#82 Loomis

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Mourning Becomes Electra

XXX wasn't expected to be a huge blockbuster?  Says who?  Not Sony. They spent a reported $50-75m in advertising for it just in the U.S, starting with Superbowl ads.  They shouted from the rooftops that there's was the new Bond and would bury the old.  


Like I say, all this hype about xXx being the new Bond and something that was going to kill off 007 was just marketing bluster. I really doubt that Sony expected xXx to outgross DIE ANOTHER DAY. And it didn't. OTOH, DAD grossed only $19 million more in the United States than xXx (according to http://www.boxoffice...?yr=2002&p=.htm). The IMDb gives xXx's budget as $85,000,000, and DAD's at $142 million. I imagine much more was spent on advertising DAD than was spent on xXx. That being the case, isn't DAD's final US gross of $160,933,087 (compared to xXx's gross of $142,109,382) a little disappointing? Factor in the Bond franchise's enormous amount of brand recognition, and we're surely talking a bit of an egg-on-face situation. With all the money spent on it, DAD should have thrashed xXx. Instead, it managed to do only slightly better.

#83 DanMan

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 11:00 PM

Well, although it only made 19 million more in the US, it doubled its gross WW. So I guess you can say that DAD did thrash xXx.

#84 Loomis

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 11:14 PM

Originally posted by DanMan

I guess you can say that DAD did thrash xXx.  


It did, but not in the US. Which I think says something about Americans' (comparative lack of) love for James Bond.

#85 Dr.Carl Mortner

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:03 AM

Goodness -- we're just going around in circles here...

North Americans love James Bond or they wouldn't be released wide-scale over here. Period. And I think my theories of overexposure due to TV and preconceived notions are pretty sound. Also, keep in mind that Bond does not bring in the ladies in large amounts largely due to those preconceived notions.

#86 Loomis

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:07 AM

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner

North Americans love James Bond or they wouldn't be released wide-scale over here.  


I'm not saying that people in the United States dislike James Bond - clearly, they don't. All I'm saying is that, on the whole, they seem to like Bond rather less than people in other countries do.

#87 Mourning Becomes Electra

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:13 AM

Sony did expect more and were disappointed in the opening. They'd banked on the new perceived power of Vin Deisel and thought the film would do much better than his 1/2 the cost and a fraction of the marketing The Fast & The Furious, and it didn't. No one was predicting that DAD would thrash XXX in the media, quite the opposite frankly.

MGM said if DAD did as well as the last 3 did in the U.S. that would be fine. No where did they say they expected it to make $200m in the U.S. GE & TWINE earned adjusted around $140m with TND adjusted around $160m. All three of those films had ALOT of marketing, the same as DAD, almost all financed from cross promotional marketing, as did DAD.

On Bond in the U.S.,, this from John Glen in '95 pre Goldeneye:

John Glen interviewed in the British sci-fi magazine Starburst (Issue 199, March 1995)

...Glen will still be best remembered for his Bond films. With Martin Campbell in the director's chair for the 17th movie, GoldenEye, John Glen is philosophical and wishes the film well.

"I think it's a wonderful title," he remarks. "I tested Pierce Brosnan and I always thought he was the perfect replacement for Roger Moore, that's why we originally chose him! I shot his tests over 3 days and they were fantastic; screen tests like you've never seen with special effects and everything. We chose some of the famous scenes from previous Bond movies and Pierce performed very well. He's got a very nice rich voice, a nice twinkle and I think he'll do very well, I certainly wish him all the luck in the world."

According to Glen, the $120 million action blockbuster True Lies illustrated the fundamental problem with recent Bond films. "I loved it, I think it gives you some idea of how efficient we were with our budgets of around $32 million. When you have someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger you can command a huge American market which Bonds always had to struggle to do, because they're not considered to be domestic films but foreign films and they never make any huge money."

================================================

Now that was pre Goldeneye which hit the magic $100m mark and did well comparatively with True Lies in the U.S. and Worldwide, something few if any expected at the time. But an interesting perspective by Glenn that Bond films have always been seen as foreign films in the U.S.

Yes the Bond films have always made more overseas than in the U.S. but that's not because of a comparative lack of love in the U.S. for Bond but because Bond does so extraordinarily well in so many different countries around the world. IE: It's appeals both to Norway and The Phillipines, not many films do, and that adds up to huge International fgrosses, not because people in France love Bond more than in the U.S.. Really, only in the U.K. does Bond do better than the U.S. & Canada when you look at the Bond rankings at the end of the year and the amount of admissions vs population.

Are the Bond films in the U.S. the HUGE mega blockbusters of the GF-TB era no, but that was almost 40 years ago, they weren't that by the late 60's euther. This is a series of 20 films, where the 20th film had more admissions than any in the U.S. since the 5th, 37 years ago. What isn't impressive about that?

We'll see the comparative lack of love of Bond when or if XXX 3 (or maybe XXX2 comes around and see what the numbers are there. Series have come and gone (Lethal Weapon, Batman, Die Hard) as we tired of them and yet Bond is still here, that's real love not a passing fancy. :)

#88 Dr.Carl Mortner

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:15 AM

I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here, but I have yet another theory as to DAD's supposed "disappointment", and it relates again back to television,

For many, many years, ABC marketed heavily-trimmed Bond movies as Saturday night family fare, and the filmmakers themselves started to accommodate that mentality themselves.

However, could it be that Lee Tamahori and his determination to "push the envelope" in terms of sex and violence might have backfired? I think a lot of parents were reluctant to take their pre-teens to see DAD where they had few reservations before.

Personally, I had been hoping that EON would up the violence quotient for some time because I enjoyed the grittiness of LTK. As far as sex, well, I really don't want to hear Bond have an orgasm. Perhaps DAD had "too much information" in that respect.

#89 Mourning Becomes Electra

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:24 AM

That would make sense except more people went to see DAD in the cinema in the U.S./Canada than have since YOLT.

Considering the amount of small children I saw at The Matrix and T3 , both R rated films I doubt many people even pay attention to ratings anymore as pertains to their kids, a pity.

When I went to see DAD there were as many kids as there were 60 year olds, as many women as men... and that's the main reason why Bond has lasted so long, it has such a wide cross section of audience, not dependent on just adults, teen boys, pre-teens or women. As to an earlier remark, the new Bond films have almost 50/50 ratio of male to female, part of the reason why they're more successful here than in many of the preceeding years.

#90 Loomis

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Mourning Becomes Electra

We'll see the comparative lack of love of Bond when or if XXX 3 (or maybe XXX2 comes around and see what the numbers are there.  Series have come and gone (Lethal Weapon, Batman, Die Hard) as we tired of them and yet Bond is still here, that's real love not a passing fancy. :)


Seems I may be wrong about Americans and James Bond. But I do wonder why the likes of CATCH ME IF YOU CAN, MY BIG FAT GREEK WEDDING and SIGNS outgrossed DIE ANOTHER DAY in the United States, but not internationally. I still get the impression that Bond totally wipes the floor with just about everything else internationally, but merely does very well in the US, that there's a sort of glass ceiling at the American box office for a "foreign" film like DAD.